Talk:Creationism

; Archives
	Archives 1 - 11 (November 2001 – March 2005; Archive 12 (May 2005); Archive 13 (June 2005); Archive 14 (September 2005); Archive 15 (August 2006); ; Is Creationism a theory (August/September 2004); What is wrong with the lead section (September 2004); History of Creationism (September 2004); Selection as a creative force (October 2004); Ranting (May 2005);

Template:GAdelisted

See also: Creation science.
Until that article acknowledges the existence of proof, please do not claim it exists. Do not qualify scientific evidence with claims of point-of-view. Evidence is not a point-of-view.

Template:Todo priority

IMPORTANT - If you wish to discuss or debate the validity of creationism please do so at talk.origins, True.Origins Archive or Wikireason. This "Discussion" page is only for discussion on how to improve the Wikipedia article. Any attempts at trolling, using this page as a soapbox, or making personal attacks may be deleted at any time.

Creationism and the supernatural

Lest an edit war ensue, let's discuss the wording of these 3 sentences:

One of its principal claims is that ostensibly objective orthodox science is actually a dogmatically atheistic religion. Its proponents argue that the scientific method ~~is incomplete, as it intentionally~~ excludes certain explanations of phenomena, particularly where they point towards supernatural elements. This effectively excludes religious insight from contributing to understanding the universe.

Ramdrake deleted the 5 words indicated by HTML strikout, saying:

science can exclude the supernatural and **not** be incomplete.

I put them back, saying:

the sentence is talking about the views of Creationists - pls meet me in talk

Can we discuss this? --Uncle Ed 15:17, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It is an irrelevant value-judgement to insert wording that science is "intentionally incomplete" because it excludes the supernatural. If you are that passionate about these five words, at least provide a verifiable cite for this sweeping claim. --ScienceApologist 15:22, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say it's a pretty sweeping claim that Creationism's principle claim is that science is primarily atheistic, the whole paragraph is a pretty sweeping claim in of itself. I don't think "ostensibly objective orthodox science" (Is science even referred to as "orthodox", and what does ostenibly mean anyway) is dogmatically atheistic, I normally only hear that applied to evolution and theories concerning evolution whenever I read the subject coming up :/. Homestarmy 15:47, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Joshua (SA), are you saying that the POV of Creationists, that science is "intentionally incomplete" as you put it, is irrelevant to this article? --Uncle Ed 15:53, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Naturalism is the principle that all phenomena in nature must have a natural (material or physical) explanation. The assumption of naturalism specifically excludes any form of design (including creationism) as an explanation for the origin and diversity of life. The standards should state that biological evolution is a naturalistic theory that intentionally excludes design from consideration. Many scientists feel that naturalism should not be invoked as a guiding principle in origins science, since it restricts the objectivity of investigations. If naturalism is invoked as a principle, this should be explained to teachers and students. [1]

Well, that is merely one creationist viewpoint, the intelligent design creationism perspective. Intelligent design is not only a minority view within science, but within creationism as well. There is a spectrum of other creationist viewpoints that do not conflict with science. This seems a simple matter of assigning due weight. FeloniousMonk 17:46, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. Since you know so much about it, can you explain (preferably in the article) which Creationists accept the restriction of science to physical causes, and which Creationists object to it. Please include numbers or percentages, if you know them.

By the way, am I reading you right or was that a typo up there, where you describe ID as being a view that is "within science"? I thought you were dead sure that ID was utterly outside of science! ;-) --Uncle Ed 17:51, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's a typo; as you already know ID claims to be science, but the scientific community rejects the claim. YEC and creation science both reject or accept parts of the scientific method and scientific evidence to the degree that they support a literal interpretation of Genesis. This is already covered sufficiently in the article. Creation science's offspring, ID, has at times explicitly rejected the scientific method, but again, it's not that simple. While at the same time intelligent design proponents condemn the scientific method as flawed, they also claim to be supporting science, as a complete reading of your cite given above shows. I think that using it to support the passage (lifted from the article of Ann Coulter's Godless: The Church of Liberalism apparently) "One of its principal claims is that ostensibly objective orthodox science is actually a dogmatically atheistic religion" is misleading; it really doesn't support the passage that was reverted. Citing Coulter here wouldn't be appropriate either, as she's not really a notable source of scholarly thinking on creationism if you know what I mean. FeloniousMonk 18:15, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't dream of quoting Coulter as an authority on anything - she's a polemicist and publicity hound - other than her own political ideas.

But let's return to the viewpoint that "the scientific method is incomplete, as it intentionally excludes certain explanations of phenomena, particularly where they point towards supernatural elements".

Are you attributing this POV to all Creationists generally, or to YECs and CSists only? Or to ID proponents mainly or what?

And again, which Creationists accept the restriction of science to physical causes? --Uncle Ed 18:29, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

2RR

Okay, 2RR's is my limit for today. If you all want me to discuss my changes, while you reserve the right to make changes without discussion, fine. Have it your way. But I question the propriety of acting according to such a double standard.

Saying that an addition to the article should be removed because it's tendentious is the same as saying it should be removed on the grounds that it advances a point of view. The ArbCom has asked contributors not to do this. So, unless you want arbcom scrutiny, you might to rethink this strategy. --Uncle Ed 16:21, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Edits that are poorly researched and unverifiable can and are routinely removed. What's tendentious is your continuing practice of making edits that are poorly researched and unverifiable as if to bait people into reverting them. --ScienceApologist 18:46, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please provide a few examples of my "poorly researched and unverifiable" edits. I will research and verify them. --Uncle Ed 18:28, 14 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A poorly researched edit

Cut from intro:

In many religious traditions, creationism is the ~~active promotion of~~ an origin belief that humans, life, the Earth, or the universe as a whole were created by a supreme being or by another deity's supernatural intervention~~, usually in addition to or specifically opposed to scientific consensus on origins~~. (changes only partially shown, pls refer to the history)

This is incorrect, because it's still Creationism even when not actively promoted. And I think the scientific consensus angle refers to pseudoscience, not theology. See Larry's Big Reply - which I'll dig up for you in a moment. --Uncle Ed 15:48, 18 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Creationism and pseudoscience are inherently entwined. You cannot whitewash to try remove the fact that it is at odds with science. — Dunc|☺ 16:14, 18 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If you can find a published source which says this, I'd be happy to see it added to the article.

I'm pretty sure "Creation Science" is tagged with Category:Pseudoscience, is that what you meant? --Uncle Ed 16:23, 18 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Talk.origins contains a large number of well written and scientific articles debunking the claim of creationism, including it's claims to be scientific. Jefffire 16:24, 18 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Good, please add a reference to a claim of Creationism to be scientific. And distinguish between Creation Science - which is a specific attempt (or groups of attempts) and Creationism in general.

If some scientists exist who consider religious faith itself to be pseudoscientific, that's another story. Are there scientists who comment on matters of religious faith, in the context of the creation-evolution controversy? I'd be looking for something in the following form:

Itzal Bilgewatre wrote, "The Jewish Bible says that God created the world from nothing, but that is patent nonsense. Science has shown that matter has to come from somewhere. Judaism is therefore pseudoscience. " <ref> --Uncle Ed 16:55, 18 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ed, you're confusing creationism with creation theology. They are not the same thing. --ScienceApologist 17:53, 18 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I find it hard to see a difference between creationism and creation theology. Therefore I am tempted to remove Cat:pseudoscience. Perhaps someone has a reference/link that will change my mind? ^ross ^nixon 21:00, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You know, looking at the creation theology article, it does claim that the two subjects are different, but doesn't appear to say exactly how. It merely appears that the creation theology article is wider in scope, as this one focuses more on the Abrahamic traditions, in addition to, of course, trying to make counting back geneologies trees sound like pseudoscience. Homestarmy 21:03, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the creation theology article could use some clean-up work. The basic idea is that creation theology centers around the theological implications of a God who creates the world. This is different from creationism which is the near-propaganda advocacy of a requirement that people believe in a world that was created supernaturally. Creation theology isn't as strident nor does it require people to believe in a literal narrative surrounding a supernatural source for existence/universe/earth/life/humanity. --ScienceApologist 00:29, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not everyone claims creationism to be a science, or even thinks of it as a science. Some do, but you can't slap a derogatory (yes the term pseudoscience is often considered derogatory) label on this topic as a whole. I'll even support maintaining within the text of the article that some consider creationism to be pseudoscience. But to place the entire article in the pseudoscience category is to render an unfair and not universally accepted judgement on the subject as a whole. Dr U 00:23, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm rather neutral on the categorization issue myself. I see creation science as being the pseudoscientific branch of creationism (creationism in-and-of-itself may or may not have any scientific pretense). Nevertheless, as creation science is a part of creationism, it may be argued that a pseudoscience categorization for this topic is warranted. A poll might be useful here. --ScienceApologist 00:26, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That would be analagous to placing the [Category:Fish] on the article Animals, reasoning that it is justified because some animals are fish. Clearly, that would be silly. If the whole doesn't fit into a category, it should not be lumped there simply because a subpopulation might qualify. Dr U 00:48, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's not quite that bad. It's more like placing the category "Conservatives" on the article about "United States Republicans". --ScienceApologist 11:27, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Creationism is the 'religious belief' alone. Creation Science is the optional 'pseudoscientific' support of Creationism. The other supports of Creationism are faith and Biblical evidence. ^ross ^nixon 01:45, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Correct. However, there are very few creationists who reject creation science. They probably exist, but they're not the easiest people to come by. Sorta like "liberal Republicans". --ScienceApologist 11:27, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

But could any of those creationists even want to accept creation science in the first place if they didn't have the religious belief first? Homestarmy 17:48, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Who knows? The answer to this question probably belies verifiability. Certainly some groups claim that you can evangelize by using science without appealing to the bible -- I would assume they are relying on "creation science" to do this. More than a few of the most vocal "convert Creationists" make the claim that they came to faith by considering the "evidence". I would dispute this as a bald fact, but if we assume they aren't lying, it sure looks like they are saying that you can believe creation science without believing on the bible and maybe there is a feeling that the overwhelmingly atheistic scientific community could be converted if they just carefully considered the evidence without their "atheistic sunglasses" on. --ScienceApologist 17:58, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well then, if it defies verifiability, it seems to me that the position of Creationism can't always be confirmed to be based primarily on Creation Science, and therefore for any instance where one might find Creationism, it would seem to me quite a stretch to suppose it would always be rooted in "pseudoscience". Homestarmy 02:13, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Of course creationism isn't always rooted in creation science/pseudoscience. Some creationists base their claims purely on the Bible and reject "man-made science" outright. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that it is an incorrect categorization. Categorization isn't an "all-or-nothing" endeavor. The argument can be made (reasonably) that there is enough overlap between creationism and creation science that the pseudoscience tag is justified in the same way that one might make the argument that the article on US Republicans should include the Coservative Politics category even though there are Republicans who are not "conservatives". Sometimes focusing on exceptions as we are here (as in creationists who don't engage in pseudoscience) serve to illustrate general trends that might allow for an accurate categorization. I'm firmly neutral on the question of whether this article should be categorized as pseudoscience. I can see both sides. --ScienceApologist 13:51, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Another reason to not flag this as pseudoscience, is that there are creationists amongst Jews, Moslems, and I presume, other minor religions. These religions possibly never invoke science in support of their beliefs. Tell me if I'm wrong. ^ross ^nixon 20:49, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Other "minor religions"? That's just plain insulting. Hinduism is a minor religion? Sikhism? Buddhism? Taoism? Jainism? Only Abrahamic religions are "major"?

Second, your point is absurd -- "These religions possibly never invoke science in support of their beliefs". Do you know this as fact? Hell, Muslims were among the greatest astronomers and mathematicians because of their religion as they needed to properly reckon the beginning of Ramadan among other things. Would you please educate yourself before sticking your bible in your mouth. Jim62sch 23:36, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Expanding on Jim's comment: Islamic and Jewish apologetics attempt to use science in the same way that Christian apologist do. Hinduism does a lot of that too (and in fact Hindus have tried to get their "science" put in the public school system in California in a way similar to what christian creationists have tried to do(and no I'm not being US centric, just making the point that almost identical behavior has occured even in the same countries)). JoshuaZ 23:49, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The creationists of Turkey routinely use the creation science arguments to bolster their claims, so these Islamic creationists "invoke science" just as much as the Christian ones. --ScienceApologist 01:36, 8 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I left Hinduism out of my list of major religions only because I was not aware that they believed in a "creation". Apparently "Brahman started the creation of an evolving planet and we who are part of Brahman are constantly evolving." - whatever that means. Do they use "creation science" to support that? Refs please. ^ross ^nixon 01:43, 8 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

[2] would be one. JoshuaZ 01:50, 8 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a good thing to remember. Creationism is not a scientific theory, but a religious belief. The opening to this article confirms it: "In many religious traditions, creationism is...". Creationism as a general term has nothing to do with modern science.

Creation Science is a recent movement which is more linked to science. Most people do consider it pseudoscience, but that issue belongs on the Creation Science article, not the article on Creationism, the religious belief that Creation Science supports. Tschel 02:10, 8 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I was following you until you said "that issue belongs on the Creation Science article". Conceivably we could address the issue in both places. In fact, we probably should simply because creationism is so often conflated with creation science these days. That doesn't necessarily mean we must categorize creationism as pseudoscience, but the impulse does have merit. The best thing to do is consider the reader. Will most readers come here expecting to read solely about the religious belief of creationism or the pseudoscientific advocacy of creationism? I'd also point out that the difference between creation (theology) and creationism might be of use to this question. --ScienceApologist 14:07, 8 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think SA raises a very valid point here. Given the present political environment, especially in the States, I would venture to propose that most people looking up creationism will be less interested in the theology, but rather more interested in looking into creationism/creation science to see what all of the fuss is about. Thus, the impulse to flag creationism itself as PS is rather understandable, and given the conflation of the terms among the 'οι пολλοι, the media, and creation proponents themselves, unavoidable. It is, after all, "creation science" that is used in the attempt to validate creationism as an intellectual (or scientific, if you must) concept, rather than as mere theological dogma/myth. Jim62sch 14:17, 8 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Good points; however, the "pseudoscience" issue belongs only in the creation science sections. Remember, creationism has been around for thousands of years before the advent of modern science. If we categorize Creationism under "Pseudoscience," we are blatantly stating that the worldview of millions of people in ancient times, educated or uneducated, was "pseudoscience." That goes against the definition of pseudoscience, since their theological beliefs were never portrayed as science in the first place. Therefore, it is silly that all of the ancient traditions related to creationism should be thus categorized under "Pseudoscience." Tschel 17:25, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Creation Science section

I am endeavoring to amend the NPOV of the Creation Science introduction, as there has been a general consensus that the original wording is unacceptable. (See discussion page.)

This is not vandalism! If you don't agree with my changes, please try to amend them further, but reverting is not helpful in this case. Comments are welcome. Tschel 17:43, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Creationism in Islam?

With jihadist beliefs and idealogy asides, are there any information or links on creations or intelligent designs in mainstream Islam?

I know they have stuff of their own, because I googled for it once or something, and there was some Islamic site with Creation science on it :/. The one I found said something about butterflies, their arguments seemed to focus on different things than Creation Science in Christianity normally does. Homestarmy 16:19, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

See Islamic creationism, [3], [4], [5]. Jim62sch 21:12, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There's also five different links at the bottom of that wiki article, just so you're aware whoever started this section. Homestarmy 00:18, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"try to incorporate" as opposed to "incorporate"

Ross and I seem to disagree which phrasing is better. I support "try to incorporate" because that doesn't comment on whether or not the incorporation is successful where as "incorporate" makes them sound like it was successful. Would simly "use" be a reasonable alternative? JoshuaZ 02:51, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's a moot point: SA deleted the sentence (and for good cause, I think). Jim62sch 17:19, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

ARGH

This only covers Christian and Jewish creationism, but mainly Christian. What happened to other forms of creationism? Zazaban 02:33, 23 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just needs someone to write it - how about you? --Michael Johnson 14:06, 23 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not that informed about it unfortunately... I came here to educate myself on it. Zazaban 19:08, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Creationism is the "active" acceptance?

I'd be bold and change it, but i'm not heavily familiar with the editing atmosphere of this article, and i'm very curious as to how exactly "active acceptance" made it's way into the intro, it doesn't appear cited, and I don't understand why creationism would have to be "actively" accepted by someone for them to actually be a creationist. Homestarmy 16:28, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Good point, Homes. I'm not sure what passive acceptance would be. I removed it. Let's see what happens. Jim62sch 23:19, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

GA Re-Review and In-line citations

Note: This article has a very small number of in-line citations for an article of its size and currently would not pass criteria 2b.
Members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. Agne 22:47, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The most obvious reason to me, for the low number of in-line citations, is that this is sort-of a "super article". By that I mean that in is has a wide general "scope"; covering issues raised in many other articles, such as Creation science, various religious views, creation-evolution controversy, and others. I expect the more specific articles will have the majority of the in-line refs. ^ross ^nixon 01:57, 26 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps its too wide if much of it can't be inline cited.... Homestarmy 02:03, 26 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Preposterous. That kind of attitude specifically conflicts with Wikipedia:Summary style. --ScienceApologist 21:05, 26 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have made a request regarding this issue here. --ScienceApologist 21:04, 26 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You know, looking at some of the refs inside the list, some of them actually do list the page numbers and seem to cover a topic which would be in a specific spot of this article, I dunno why they aren't already inline :/. Homestarmy 21:07, 26 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Because the article is OLD and there were many more styles for referencing before someone came up with the ref tag. Please fix them yourself if you have the time. --ScienceApologist 21:09, 26 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

TOCleft

I vaguely remember discussing this before, but why is the TOCleft being used? Particularly under the creationism template which is pushing it well into Overview. It is inconsistent with Wikipedia TOC positioning and is a bit confusing. - Roy Boy ⁸⁰⁰ 23:55, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I see no reaosn for this either. For this article, the TOC worked perfectly well in its default position. -Silence 08:22, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Unverifiable

Template:Veri policy

Adding boilerplate and tags is not a useful way to discuss the article. Please be specific with the problems of the article. Keep in mind that this article is about creationism, not advocacy for (or against) creationist beliefs about origins. It probably can use some more references, but I don't thing a general tag is warranted.--Stephan Schulz 23:56, 28 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I do NOT want advocacy. I simply want an article that readers can trust. This article needs to comply with the Wikipedia content policies - WP:V, WP:NOR, and WP:NPOV - and although there's obviously been an effort to comply with NPOV, there's a serious deficiency in WP:V. Unless and until any reader can determine that any fact presented has previously been published by a reliable source, the tag both warns readers that the contents do not meet Wikipedia quality standards, and it recruits editors to perform the work needed to bring the contents up to snuff. ClairSamoht - Help make Wikipedia the most authoritative source of information in the world 00:55, 29 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]