Talk: Super Saiyan 3

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broly vs super saiyan 3[]

it should be noted broly was not in the manga and his power wolud rival ssj3 in movie 10 even if they were equal broly would provel due to power increase and ssj3s would decrease

Not true at all, that was never stated and is completely inaccurateSSJGoku93 22:21, 22 September 2008 (UTC). Talk:Legendary Super Saiyan 3 i c wat umean but lookn at his strength in his 2 movies u would definetly have to say he was in leauge with super saiyan 3 even if he wasnt he would eventually overwhelm him due to his power endlessly rising and his decreasing

A character's strength cannot be gauged by "looking at their strength". Vegeta's power-ups and techniques in the beginning of Dragon Ball Z look just as elaborate as Super Saiyan 3 Goku's at the end of the series. The only way we know one is stronger than the other is by referring to the outcomes of battles, power levels and transformations. Since there isn't really a common reference with which we can compare Broly and a Super Saiyan 3, anything we'd write would be pure speculation. --  talk contr 02:41, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

true but broly dominateded a ssj2 without taking any damage remember second coming happend around the time goku knew ssj3 so did bio broly and wat r utalking about no one ever thought vegtea was that strong plus in bio broly in hell goku needs pikkons assistance to go fight broly in the end and look at wat killed broly i understand wat u mean but in a true estimate broly cant be compared with others because he has no limt hes dangerous enough to be a match for omaga shenron we dont know but taking 3 super kamehamehas and the sun with an energy blast to kill him should really say somthing plus brolys power rises ssj3s decreases

For one, better grammar would be nice, and two, NOTHING was every shown comparing SSJ3 to LSSJ Broly... so enough with trying to argue about putting it on there, as Nonoitall said, it will only be pure speculation. SSJGoku93 20:49, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

@anon

I never said that anyone thought normal Vegeta was as strong as SS3 Goku; I just said that his power (and that of many other characters) was made to appear just as elaborate as SS3 Goku's (or heck, how about SS4 Gogeta's). Dragon Ball Z would have been pretty boring otherwise. The spectacularity of a battle is not a reliable indication of the strength of its participants. Because of this, and many other examples, we can't base our estimates on how strong the characters and their techniques "look". All that we really know about Broly and an SS3, is that they were both stronger than an SS2. There's no common point of reference we can use to determine which is stronger. --  talk contr 21:07, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

for one I SAID BROLY MIGTH BE STRONGER AND DONT GET SMART WITH ME *offensive remark removed by nonoitall*

dont worry NONOITALL iwasnt talking to u i was talking to that fag who butted in on our conversation

How exactly will you "woop ur ass" over the internet? Please refrain from personal attacks. Also, just out of curiosity here, is there a canon source for Broly's power always at a constant increase?

@anon

Regardless of who you were talking to, it is not appropriate to speak that way to anyone on the wiki. If you have some relevant insight to add to the discussion, please add it. If not, you needn't and shouldn't say a thing. (That goes for all the participants in this discussion.) Flinging insults and taunting each other accomplishes absolutely nothing. As yet, I haven't seen any point that can overcome the fact that there is no means for a comparison between Broly and an SS3, so does anyone have anything further to add, or can we call this matter settled? --  talk contr 05:32, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

yea ill call it settled but tell that sissie brolys power does increase and there is a source movie 8

If you were talking to me anon then you need to watch your attitude my friend. Talk pages are to do just that, TALK. It's hilarious how people get all mad and make threats like that over the internet... But, yes, Broly's power did increase after his near death against Goku. However, there is no apparent way to compare Broly in 2nd Coming to SSJ3 Goku. What we do know is that they are both more powerful than Super Saiyan 2, but we have never seen a Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 battle, we don't know how badly the SSJ2 would lose. SSJGoku93 20:54, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

one question ssj goku how old r u

Quote: If you have some relevant insight to add to the discussion, please add it. If not, you needn't and shouldn't say a thing.

This page is for discussing changes to the Super Saiyan 3 article, not the ages of the wiki's editors. --  talk contr 06:47, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

15... but that is not important, we are here to discuss Super Saiyan 3 not personal information. SSJGoku93 20:40, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

wow u would think at that age you would have somthing better to do with your life...but thats not important any opinions on broly vs bio broly?

Bio Broly didn't seem as strong, but all he would have to do is touch regular Broly with the goo to instantly kill him, or anything else. Also, please refrain from personal attacks and people's ages. After all, your statement there could be turned back on yourself. -Ridureyu

Anon your are pretty darn arrogant and rude, what are you like 9-10? The common age on this sites 13-18 so yea watch what you say. It's no wonder your grammar is so terrible and you get all pissy because your wrong. Oh yeah, "I have nothing better to do with my life", like football, friends, family, school and other things don't keep me busy right? So enough with the childish personal attacks, this is about Super Saiyan 3, not the personal lives of others. SSJGoku93 01:04, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

27. I was a moderator way back when on planetnamek.com. Fell back into the fandom after buying Tenkaichi 3. -Ridureyu

Wait so your 27 Ridureyu? And Broly was far more powerful then Bio-Broly. SSJGoku93 01:17, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Yeah. I was a fan when Saban was still dubbing it. And I'd think Broly is more powerful than Bio-Broly, but the bio-sludge is pretty much an instant kill on anything, kind of like the Devilmite Beam on something evil, the Destructo Disc on everything but Cell, or whatever Dabura spits on. -Ridureyu

Cool man at least some one else who might understand why these "little kid" editors are so darn annoying. But yea, I can see what you mean. But, SSJ Goten and Trunks where able to dodge most of his sludge, so I have no doubt that any of the main cast would have trouble dodging him. I'm guessing Bio-Broly was probably around the same power as his SSJ form or even a bit weaker. SSJGoku93 01:26, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, but Broly is more likely to blindly rush at Bio-Broly and grapple him, which would go to his disadvantage. I agree that he seemed a lot stronger, though. -Ridureyu

Yeah I agree, except one powerful blast from LSSJ Broly might be enough to kill Bio Broly (in a hypothetical fight), because he's pretty slow, from what I've seen at least. SSJGoku93 01:37, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Hopefully, as long as there's nothing left to reform. basically, it's down to whether Broly would blast it, or try to clothesline it. -Ridureyu

*irrelevant and offensive remark removed by nonoitall*

oh yea and since i just dont wanna leave a personal attack no bio brolys guu woulndt hurt broly if he touched him watch the movie the least it would do is transform broly as well and bio broly seems weaker anyway its anyones guess

and wat do u mean i get pissy cuz im wrong if u look at my first statment ud c i never said broly wuz stronger i said he MIGHT be *offensive remark removed by nonoitall*

Honesty dude, get a hobby, my god your having a freaking temper tantrum. Honestly, talking smack over the internet makes you sound like an idiot, "i could still break ur fuckn face", haha okay sure my friend...how do you plan to do that over the internet... and I'm the loser? I love Dragon Ball Z, have for many years, and contributing here is really fun. It's people like you who come in with your horrible attitude and stupidity that come in and just make everyone angry. You get all mad because I and others find that your statements are ridiculous. Honestly either grow up, your not like any other 14 year old I've ever met, seeing as how your only a year younger then me.. If you continue to act like this you might as well leave this website now, as your immaturity is hilariously stupid. SSJGoku93 20:50, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Anon, perhaps you would win at Football, but compare the number of successful football players to the number of successful, let's say... any other job in the world. Yeah, exactly. Learn to spell:-) -Ridureyu

@anon: Since your IP address is apparently dynamic, I am giving you a warning here as opposed to an anonymous talk page. Please stop using profanity and insulting the other editors. Failure to do so may result in your being blocked from editing.

Since no more insight is being brought forth, the matter is closed. Unless anyone has anything relevant to say about improving the article, do not comment here. (Warnings may be issued to those who do not comply.) Responding to an irrelevant comment with another irrelevant comment (even if it isn't quite as rude as the first) is unnecessary and, in this case, provocative as well. --  talk contr 23:29, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

I have something I have thought about. When Majin Vegeta fights Majin Buu he is fighting at Super Saiyan 2. Right before that fight, Vegeta fought Super Saiyan 2 Goku on an even scale. From that we can say that Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Super Saiyan 2 Majin Vegeta are the same power. Then when Goku becomes a Super Saiyan 3 he completely dominates Majin Buu. Now after Cell Gohan has not trained, but Vegeta has trained. That means Vegeta has become stronger than Gohan. Broly fights Gohan right before the World Martial Arts Tournament which means his power is a bit lower than it was when he fought Cell and Vegeta even says that Gohan's power decreased. From that I can say that Broly would have fought on par with a Super Saiyan 2 Goku or Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta. That means a Super Saiyan 3 would be more powerful than Broly. However the longer Broly lasts in the fight with Super Saiyan 3 Goku then Broly will become stronger and Goku would become weaker. So I come to the conclusion that Sper Saiyan 3 Goku is stronger than Broly at Legendary Super Saiyan. Imortality is a curse. 17:30, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

There's a lot of supposition there. We can't say how much stronger an SS3 is than an SS2, nor how much stronger Broly was than an SS2. All we know is SS3 > SS2, and Broly > SS2. We have no means of directly comparing Broly with a SS3. (Goku as an SS3 didn't really dominate Buu either; he spent most of his time dodging him to buy time for Trunks to find the Dragon Radar, and afterward he was unsure if he really could have beaten Buu or not.) --  talk contr 09:37, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Maybe not LSSJ to SSJ2 (although going by the evidence, we can at least estimate), but we definitely can say how much stronger an SSJ3 is than an SSJ2 (Heck, we can even say how much stronger a SSJ3 is to an SSJ, an ASSJ, an Oozaru and even base form thanks to the Super Exciting guide as well as hints in the anime/manga itself. SSJ3 has been officially confirmed to be the strength of four SSJ2s, three ASSJs, eight SSJs, fourty Oozarus, and four hundred regular Saiyans. Likewise, Super Saiyan 2 is officially confirmed as being two times stronger than a Super Saiyan, ten times stronger than an Oozaru, and one hundred times stronger than a Saiyan. Ascended Super Saiyans were implied by Vegeta to be three times as strong as a Super Saiyan. a Super Saiyan has already been confirmed as increasing a Saiyan's strength by fifty-fold, and an Oozaru is stated to be ten times as strong as a Saiyan.).

BTW, that reminds me, I have done a few calculations based off of his fight in Movie 8. During the first (two) round between the good Super Saiyans (IE, Trunks, Goku, and Gohan) vs Broly in his Legendary Super Saiyan form, Goku and Gohan were in their Full Power Super Saiyan states (it's evident that they were in the full power states of a Super Saiyan because, other than the facial features [as well as acting how they normally would in base form], the movie takes place during the 10 day wait), whileas Trunks was ASSJ (Trunks was the only one of the Super Saiyans who actually had one of his clothing ripped apart just by transforming, and his jacket didn't even tear when he transformed to kill Kogu a movie later, meaning he HAD to be ASSJ.). Seeing how Broly was able to defeat them quite easily during the first two rounds (and, aside from Trunks, all of them were fighting to their full potential [Gohan wasn't exactly aware of his SSJ2 transformation until he fought Cell, so that didn't really count], that would mean that he was greater than at least five super saiyans (since that is what two full power super saiyans and one Ascended super saiyan would be equivalent to.), meaning it was clear that he was far stronger than a Super Saiyan 2. Even IF we try to say that Broly was only fighting regular Super Saiyans, that would still mean that he's stronger than a Super Saiyan 2 (as a Super Saiyan 2 is explicitly stated to be two times as strong as a Super Saiyan). During what could be considered Round 3 (when Piccolo [and later, Vegeta] arrives in the fray), Broly doesn't flinch at even a joint effort between two Full Power Super Saiyans, an Ascended Super Saiyan, and a Super Namek. As a Super Namek is stated to at least be on the level of a Super Saiyan, if not a bit stronger, that would mean that Broly would be stronger than six Super Saiyans [again, because that is the equivalent what he is fighting against]. By the time Vegeta joined into the fray, they tried to defeat Broly head on, Broly evidently was completely unaffected by the joint effort. As two Ascended Super Saiyans, two Full Power Super Saiyans, and a Super Namek were [presumably] unable to even make Broly flinch during that fight, that would imply that Broly was at least stronger than nine super saiyans, since that's the equivalent that Broly had beaten up. Seeing how a Super Saiyan 3 is eight times as strong as a Super Saiyan, that would imply that Broly's Legendary Super Saiyan form is at least marginally stronger than a Super Saiyan 3 during Movie eight.

Now, if Broly was fighting a Full Power Super Saiyan, a Super Saiyan 2, an Ascended Super Saiyan, a Super Namek, and an Ultra Super Saiyan at the same time (I can't say how much it would all equate to [seeing how we don't have an official statement [either in the anime/manga, or in the Super Exciting Guide as to the strength of an Ultra Super Saiyan], but at least when we don't count the Ultra Super Saiyan, it would equate to seven super saiyans, though he wouldn't have that much trouble there, if we discount the Ultra Super Saiyan), he might have a bit of trouble. (If we are to assume that Gohan, Vegeta, Trunks, and Piccolo gave all of their power to Goku, that would mean he would have the strength of a Super Namek, a Super Saiyan 2 [as Gohan technically achieved the form in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, although he was not aware of it as he fainted.], an Ascended Super Saiyan, and an Ultra Super Saiyan (Trunks's Maximum), in addition to his Full power Super Saiyan form's own power.).

Now, seeing how Movie 10 Broly was implied to be stronger than Movie 8 Broly (Gohan stated that fighting Broly at that point was "just as much of a challenge as the last time [Gohan] fought [Broly]", and Broly wasn't even in his Legendary state yet.), that would mean that he's very likely stronger in his Legendary State than an Ascended Super Saiyan, a Full Power Super Saiyan, a Super Namek, an Ultra Super Saiyan, and a Super Saiyan 2 (especially Super Saiyan 2 Teen Gohan). A few remaining bits of Ultimate Gohan [though not Ultimate Gohan himself] may have briefly come out when Gohan kneed him in the face [since he seemed to be overpowering Broly when he kicked him, surprising Broly, in a similar manner to when portions of his ultimate power inexplicably reveal itself.], which would imply that Broly may be at the level of Ultimate Gohan if not slightly weaker [it didn't really injure him as much as it stunned him.]. As far as the Kamehameha waves that they used to ultimately defeat Broly, we already know that ki-attacks, when given enough time to charge, can actually become stronger than before. As they were placing a lot of effort to overpower Broly's Omega Blaster/Gigantic Meteor, Gohan, Goten, and Goku [Broly's reaction when Goku appeared suggested that Goku was indeed present, at least semi-physically] would have to have been using at least 3x their own power to try and overpower the Omega Blaster.

So basically, going by these calculations, Broly's Legendary Super Saiyan form, both in Movie 8 and Movie 10, would officially be stronger than a Super Saiyan 3. I can't give an exact measurement, but they are pretty good estimates. I can't say exactly how much stronger Broly is as an LSSJ in both movies compared to his own Super Saiyan form [I'm saying his own Super Saiyan form because his Super Saiyan form was shown to be immune to a Super Saiyan attacking him at the very least, like when Vegeta kicked him upside the head and fired an energy attack at Broly and he didn't even get hurt.], however, going by the fact that his SSJ form was unable to be hurt by Vegeta's Super Saiyan form, at the very least, if not his ASSJ form, and that near the start of the fight, Broly was already shown to be stronger than an ASSJ and two FPSSJs, indicating that he's at least 4x as strong in his Legendary Super Saiyan form than in his Super Saiyan form, if not five times. Hope this takes care of everything.

100% Utilization of Ki[]

In the article it states that the SSj3 requires 100% utilization of Ki. Is that ever stated officially?

If not, then it seems false. Since if 100% of Ki is utilized, there will be none left, and the user will die in a matter of seconds, because there will be no energy to keep him alive. You can say that a large amount of Ki is utilized, but not all of it. --Neos 18:44, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Makes sense. It's been changed. --  talk contr 08:30, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. --Neos 09:46, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it meant that it used all Ki at once,Just that it used Ki more efficiently Or that it was 100% X stronger.Vegerot 01:58, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

There's no 100% 'times' stronger. ;-) (If he's 100% stronger, then it would be simplest to say that he's twice as strong, but AFAIK there's nothing to back up that figure.) --  talk contr 08:55, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

I actually have another idea for this statement , what message is it trying to bring us actually . When I see the word 100% it reminds me of the Chakra Gates opening technique Gai and Lee used in Naruto  .

So I in the naruto wikia they stated ,

The Gate of Opening (開門, Kaimon), located in the brain. This gate removes the restraints of the brain on the muscles so 100% of their strength can be used whereas normally, a person can only use 20% of their muscles' strength to keep them from disintegrating.

So that's it , just my opinion .

Power[]

I read somewhere that SS3 Gotenks is stronger than SS3 Goku is that true? --LocC 09 21:21, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Could I just say that any who could be an even match with the most powerful being in the universe Kid Buu, possibly stronger than LSSJ Broly, is way stronger than a fusion that could only fight evenly with Super Buu no one absorbed. So in my book its SSJ3 gotenks, Ult. Gohan and then SSj3 Goku.--[[UltimateSuperSaiyan3

It is indeed true. Goku said that even with Vegeta, they would die if they go out and fight Super Buu. Gotenks as an SSJ3 was able to fight evenly with Super Buu (and if he was not fooling around, would most likely be able to kill him). --XOmega 11:27 26 July 2009 (UTC)

No, best example would be the fact that SS3 Gotenks was beaten easily by Hirudegarn while he didn't stand a chance against SS3 Goku. --Vatek 23:03, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Canonically speaking, yes, it is most likely that SS3 Gotenks was stronger than SS3 Goku. It's fairly concisely explained in this YT compilation, using the manga and non-filler sections of the anime as references. In the series it's never explicitly stated which was stronger, but it's rather strongly implied that it was Gotenks. --  talk contr 09:11, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Nonotail, I agree with you. But, Vatek, no disrespect but the only reason why Goku even beat Hirudegarn was because of his Dragon Fist. Also, I don't think movies really count in canoncity. But, thanks for replying. --LocC 09 14:02, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, it should be noted that even then, it was only because Goku had managed to taunt Hirudegarn to the point where it was 100% uncontrolled rage (thus making it permanently tangible), as Goku and Gohan said, Hirudegarn's weakness is that it becomes tangible with intense emotions.

Legendary Super Saiyan 3[]

It is quite obvious that even though Broly's new form is named "Super Saiyan 3" it is Legendary Super Saiyan 3. See how Ascended Super Saiyan is a fan name? And yet it's accepted. Also Broly's Legendary Super Saiyan 3 is acheived after Legendary Super Saiyan and it still has all the traits of LSS. Broly can achieve normal Super Saiyan. So if he did infact reach "Super Saiyan 3" it would look similar to Goku's form, no green hair, giant muscles or anything. Does any smart person agree with me? EchostreamFanJosh

You are incorrect. In Raging Blast, the only time the form is ever seen, it is called Super Saiyan 3. Please stop adding incorrect information to the article. -- .10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 07:42, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

In this situation, it would be incorrect to call someone who calls Broly a "Legendary Super Saiyan 3" wrong. Each person is entitled to their own opinion. It was never directly stated that this form was NOT legendary, it simply said "Super Saiyan 3". By appearance, it obviously has traits of a legendary SSJ. Think about it this way, when Vegeta shows his USSJ form, he calls himself "Super Vegeta" and that he has gone BEYOND a SSJ. It's never stated that he actually is a SSJ, but anyone can plainly see that his USSJ form is a type of SSJ. The same can be applied to Broly, he is stated to be a SSJ3, but anyone can plainly see that it is similar to his Legendary Form. I'm not saying we should all call him LSSJ3 Broly, I'm just saying to stop calling the term "Legendary Super Saiyan 3" incorrect. -Kaonohiokala 09:40 PM HST, 15 September 2010

What we call that on wiki sites is "original research," which is when someone observes something that may be obvious to them, but there is no official statement to back up his/her claim. In these cases, the information (no offense meant) is not considered reliable. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 16:25, September 16, 2010 (UTC)

No, what we would call that is a free opinion. What's going on here is you're trying to force everyone believe something one way. All I'm asking is to remove one biased word. There is absolutely no source of official information that states "Broly is not a LEGENDARY SSJ3". Yet, you insist on calling everyone who believes that he could possibly be a SSJ3 incorrect. If anything, you are the one with original information that doesn't match your claim. I mean, what I'm asking for is to remove the word "incorrectly" from the trivia section to un-bias things, and you want to go around calling people incorrect without proper evidence. That shouldn't be what this wiki is about. -Kaonohiokala 11:03 AM HST, 16 September 2010

The issue is actually the lack of evidence on your side. The only evidence to speak of is that he is officially called Super Saiyan 3 in a recent video game. He is never officially called a Legendary Super Saiyan 3. Additionally, do not make the edit on the page without the issue first being resolved on the talk page. Our policies dictate that the page be left as it originally was until disputes are resolved. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 22:08, September 16, 2010 (UTC)

Well, to be fair, a trailer for a game does count as official evidence, given the fact that Goku did refer to that form as "densetsu supa saiya-jin suri" which roughly translates to Legendary Super Saiyan 3. Weedle McHairybug 22:31, September 16, 2010 (UTC)

Rough Japanese translations are not evidence for official English names. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 23:26, September 16, 2010 (UTC)

Page format[]

I'm not sure what's going on, but this page is definately shifted to the right...Anyone know how to fix it? --==> DragonBall.Z GT Goku  Talk Contributions. 02:42, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Odd, the page is normal for me. Maybe your computer is misinterpreting it (just throwing out ideas why). User:Brolythelegend (talk) 02:49, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

I have no idea. Yeah, it's all aligned (the text and pictures and everything) around a centimeter right of where it should be on the left margin. All of the other pages seem to be just fine though, so it led me to believe that it's something with this one. Weird. --==> DragonBall.Z GT Goku  Talk Contributions. 02:53, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

It was indeed misaligned. Looks like somebody improperly added a line break, so I fixed the problem. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 03:20, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Ah, brilliant! I knew it had to be something small, but you beat me to it :P Thanks very much. --==> DragonBall.Z GT Goku  Talk Contributions. 03:21, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Requirements[]

I noticed that SS, SS2, and even SS4 have requirement descriptions. But I don't seem to see one for SS3. IS there any requirements that are stated in the manga or even elsewhere? I know in the funimation dub Goku tells Trunks and Goten that the power has to come from deep inside, and also when he first transforms for Buu there are breif scenes of baby goku and the great ape. How much of this was from the manga (for Goku's transformation for Goten/Trunks I mean did he make any such comment ANYWHERE in the manga since the scene was different there) and does any of what I mentioned provide possible explanation for how to first attain this form?--Black kille 19:24, September 8, 2010 (UTC)

Hi, can someone explain something to me[]

It says that the purpose of Super Saiyan 3 is to increase the utilization of Ki. Can someone explain what exactly that means?

I think it means that the purpose of Super Saiyan 3 is to put to use as much of the user's Ki as possible, leading to rapid energy consumption and fatigue. Also remember to sign your posts with four tildes. - StratusX - ^talk _{contributions} 22:33, September 25, 2010 (UTC)

Well, that's more the causes of SS3 and not the purpose. The purpose (as stated by Goku when achieving the form for the amusement of Trunks and Goten) is to find a pool of energy located deep within. Instead of a great upwelling of anger or emotion that spurs the transformations of SS and SS2, SS3's transformation occurs when that deep inner pool is found and brought to the surface. Strength and power do not really increase in the form, but the Ki does. This means, while not phisically better than SS2, SS3 can pour greater amounts of Ki into it's motions, resulting in more devastating blows, higher speed, and an increased aura (the hair has to have something to do with that, but I admit, that part is speculation). Does that answer your question? 06:28, September 26, 2010 (UTC)

Yes it does. Thanks, but I have one more question. How is the Super Saiyan transformations and Kaioken technique different?

Super Saiyan transformations are Saiyan-specific transformations that come in response to a need, Kaio-Ken is a technique that presumably anyone skilled enough to learn it can use to increase their power by multiplying it by the level of Kaio-Ken. It is speculation that Kaio-Ken x50 is roughly equal to Super Saiyan 1. Does that help? - StratusX ^talk _{contributions} 16:29, September 27, 2010 (UTC)

ss2[]

when gotenks transforms into ss3 he 1st looks like a ss2 and same with goku his hair goes up straight (like a ss2's hair does) and then gets longer. so is that just becaus ethats what they felt like doing or do they have to be a ss2 1st to reach the ss2 form Vegito the legend 05:46, October 4, 2010 (UTC)

According to official publications, Gotenks had the ability to go SS2, but never did. Does this answer your question? -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 05:49, October 4, 2010 (UTC)

kinda but have you seen gotenks turn into a ss3 and goku they look similar to ss2 while they are transforming Vegito the legend 05:53, October 4, 2010 (UTC)

It's just what it looks like... what are you asking? -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 06:46, October 4, 2010 (UTC)

Goku did become SS2. He told Majin Buu, "This is a super saiyan that has ascended past a super saiyan, or, you could just call this a super saiyan 2" then he went SS3. Gotenks, from what I've read, just skipped SS2 and went straight to SS3

Well technically speaking, its never offically stated weather he skipped SS2 or not. It may just be among other things that Toriyama and subsequently the animators just forgot to draw an SS2 state. If Gotenks went directly to SS 3 then that actually adds a whole new dimension to SS3 and would imply that Goku would be able to skip SS2 as well. As far as I know the Saiyan has to be able to go SS2 to go SS3 unlike SS4 which is A. never in the manga and more importantly B. in a different order to begin with. The question that really needs to be answered is weather SS2 is required prior to going SS3 or not, otherwise its speculative and sketchy.--Black kille 00:34, January 24, 2011 (UTC)

SSJ3 Goku vs Kid Buu[]

First you write, "The Super Saiyan 3 was truly pushed to the breaking point in the final battle against Kid Buu. Despite using his full power as a Super Saiyan 3 from the very start (in the anime Goku started off as a Super Saiyan 2 before ascending)". Which is completely true, but then you write, "He later revealed that he might have been able to destroy Kid Buu when at full power, but let the fight drag on to give Vegeta a shot". You forgot to mention, in the manga, Goku says he's been trying to finish Kid Buu since the fight started, but Kid Buu kept draging the fight.

YoungTopGunn 21:51, February 7, 2011 (UTC)

The latter chronologically latter statement takes precedence, since it is Goku himself taking back what he said earlier. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 01:32, February 8, 2011 (UTC)

I thought since there was an example of both the anime and the manga when Goku fought Kid Buu at SSJ2, why wasn't there an example when Goku says he let the fight drag on so Vegeta can get a chance. Since in the manga he doesn't say this, it makes more sence. Goku knows a SSJ level 2 won't be do nothing to Kid Buu, so saying he wanted Vegeta give a shot, makes Goku look like he doesn't know what he's doing lol but oh well.

YoungTopGunn 09:32, February 8, 2011 (UTC)

SSJ3 Trunks from dragon ball Heroes[]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQZ5qdyCryY

is any one gona add him?

Please sign your posts. The convention is to wait until this comes out officially. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 20:15, March 17, 2011 (UTC)

difference between manga and anime[]

This article claims that Goku seemed alot stronger than kid buu before his energy started draining and that he didn't try to finish buu so Vegeta could have a turn. First off they seem pretty even, taking blow for blow often, second There's a distinct difference in anime and manga. Anime goku holds back for Vegeta's turn, but manga Goku says he's been trying to finish buu unsuccessfully the entire time. Check it out.

The Perfect Warrior 08:03, March 19, 2011 (UTC)The Perfect Warrior, March 19, 2011

Super Saiyan 3 Goku image[]

I think we should change this infobox image

to this image. Please vote. DB wizard 00:16, July 21, 2011 (UTC)

I don't think that's a good idea because we can alerady see him fine and you can't see the electricity plus the other picture is brightier.00:25, July 21, 2011 (UTC)Supremegogeta (talk)

Yeah I agree with Supremegogeta. Not only that, but the pic that's there is sort of the iconic image for Super Saiyan 3. KillerBaka9 (talk) 00:26, July 21, 2011 (UTC)

I agree that the current image is better. The electricity is a signature feature and the image seems clearer. 10X Kamehameha (talk) 00:28, July 21, 2011 (UTC)

How is ss3 attained?[]

In each and every article about saiyan transformation it is written how was it attained and what were the conditions required but in this article it wasn't written. Please write this on this page two...

I think how is it attained, is mentioned in the episode, "Goku's Time is Up".

117.205.3.101 12:08, August 1, 2011 (UTC)

SSJ3 = Kaio-ken x4 in SSJ2 form....

Because SSJ3 sacrifices Stamina for Power... And Kaio-ken x4 increases power and also sacrifices Stamina for Power and rapidly consumes his energy....

But SSJ and SSJ2 increase power without harming stamina... Infact, SSJ2 is his true power... SSJ3 is just like Kaio-ken x4... it increases power for stamina.... Thats why whenever he turned SSJ3 he tried his best as SSJ2 and if he failed then he ascended....

117.205.1.103 14:17, September 19, 2011 (UTC)

I have not watched in a while and I was wondering since I cannot find a picture anywhere, does anyone hair stay long after the transformation or does it just appear normal again? If anyone could provide a picture or tell me what episode to look in that would be helpful.

Chugwig 04:47, December 27, 2011 (UTC)Chugwig

Proof that SSJ3 is 4 time stronger thatn SSJ2, when Gohan's energy was absorbed, it filled up 1 quarter of the energy needed to revive Buu, while when Goku was fighting Buu, he is slighty stronger(because he trained and SSJ3 multiplies his strength by 400 than in base form.) than Buu.

Zslayern (talk) 10:41, October 12, 2012 (UTC)

Super Saiyn 3 Eyes[]

I wonder if the irises only appear in adult Super Saiyan 3s.  You'll notice Goku has irises in the Buu Saga, while Gotenks doesn't.  Later in Dragon Ball GT, Kid Goku doesn't have irises like his adult self did. Should this be worth noting in the article? Chan Tanaka (talk) 21:05, May 2, 2013 (UTC)

Nah, it's just speculation. Broly has no pupils or irises either. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 23:53, May 2, 2013 (UTC)

S.S.J. 3 Female's

Eyebrows

On the s.s.j. 3 page it should be noted that s.s.j. 3 females retain their eyebrows upon transformation as you can clearly see in this image.

Already metioned: Super Saiyan 3#Appearance. JeangabinTalkContrib 23:49, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

I was hoping it would be mention on the trivia section for easier visual scanning, but i am O.K. with the way it was done. S.S.J.4 (talk) 01:27, June 20, 2014 (UTC)

Goten[]

In Dragon Ball GT, when discussing the possible fusion of Goku and Vegeta as Super Saiyan 4s, Goten says "Sure, why not? Trunks and I were able to do it as Super Saiyan 3s!". Since he mentions multiple Super Saiyan 3s, and this is in the context of before using Fusion, this seems to suggest that Goten and Trunks attained the SS3 form and fused while in it at some point prior to the Shadow Dragon Saga. So Goten should be added to the user list, and a section should be made on his page.--Neffyarious (talk) 17:28, July 10, 2014 (UTC)

Which episode? Sounds pretty significant. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 23:07, July 15, 2014 (UTC)

"Super Saiyan 4 Fusion".Neffyarious (talk) 09:42, July 16, 2014 (UTC)

What they mean is that they were able to stay fused while using SS3 despite the form consomming a lot of energy. JeangabinTalkContrib 11:43, July 16, 2014 (UTC)

Goten mentions multiple "Super Saiyan 3s", not just one, and he is talking pre-fusion.Neffyarious (talk) 17:01, July 16, 2014 (UTC)

I watched and I have to say that the wording seems to imply that they were both Super Saiyan 3, and then fused. This makes sense in context, since Goku and Vegeta are Super Saiyan 4 at the time. They are not discussing the possibility of Gogeta turning SS4 after fusion, like SS3 Gotenks from Z. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 05:32, July 18, 2014 (UTC)

• So it's okay to add then?Neffyarious (talk) 14:34, July 18, 2014 (UTC)

no it's not okay it's just a dub error    The         R-                              -Less      One                                              21:11, July 18, 2014 (UTC)

Ah, so what does the original Japanese version say? We still mention dub-exclusive stuff anyway.--Neffyarious (talk) 21:54, July 18, 2014 (UTC)

i don't know. And it's just a mistake Goten can't go SSJ3
   The         R-                              -Less      One                                              22:13, July 18, 2014 (UTC)

• Can you prove it's a mistake? Or is that just your opinion?Neffyarious (talk) 12:58, July 19, 2014 (UTC)

Goten was never intended to be a SSJ3 witch means he can't
   The         R-                              -Less      One                                              20:13, July 19, 2014 (UTC)

GT mentions that he can though. And there is no evidence that it was a mistake.Neffyarious (talk) 11:19, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

At the very least, the Funimation dub implies that he and Trunk both can. I'm interested to see what the Japanese version says, too. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 05:40, July 22, 2014 (UTC)

For now, i'll put on the pages "in the FUNimation dub it is said... etc" until we get the Japanese. If that is okay with you.Neffyarious (talk) 12:59, July 24, 2014 (UTC)

Definitely. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 00:03, July 25, 2014 (UTC)

KID TRUNKS in the original anime also states that "him and goten where both super saiyan 3s plus they where fused together" in the episode when ultimate gohan first came.. then in the episode "Gotenks is awesome", goku states that Gotenks "was a few super saiyan 3s".. also when trunks and goten was in the hyperbolic time chamber, Goten says it is amazing to know that there are levels beyond super saiyan. They could be training to reached the form. Plus it would makes sense that Gotenks was super saiyan 3, because both of them would be ssj3s in the same sense that Gotenks is a super saiyan because trunks and goten are super saiyans.Ankhael (talk) 03:01, December 31, 2014 (UTC)

I'm starting this back up again, because it's almost laughable how incorrect this information is. A line of confusingly worded dialogue is not enough to list Goten as a user. He was clearly referring to Gotenks, despite him saying "both he and Trunks". Both "He and Trunks" are GOTENKS. He's not a user in the manga or anime, he's not listed as a user in any official sources, he's not a user in any video games, he's not a user in any card games. You need a more solid source than this, this is ridiculous. Arkhaan (talk) 18:19, April 20, 2015 (UTC)

And here I am again to back you up. I said it before so I'll say again: can someone find the japanese dialog so no doubts will remain? Sandubadear 18:57, April 20, 2015 (UTC)

Double Ascended?[]

I'm sorry but it really bugs me that everyone accepts the "double ascended" quote as proof that SS3 is 400x base PL. Krillin says this because Goku has ascended again, not because he double ascended all at once. It would be much more sensible to assume SS3 is 200x, even though at this point all power levels are speculation anyways. I would even be okay with giving it 300x seeing as how its energy output is doubled, whether the user wants it to be or not. I just think that 400x would be closer to SS4, assuming Golden Ape is actually 500x. Sorry if this has been brought up before, but I truly believe there has been a translation error with this. I always believed it went SS 50x, SS2 100x, SS3 200x, SS4 400x, Golden Oozaru 500x, ... SSGod x^9000th power.

Tommy.kelley.7 (talk) 05:13, August 9, 2014 (UTC)Pickle-Os

First of all - 400x base PL its official data, its count from official databook quote - "Super Saiyan 3 power is 4x power of SS2" (SS2 power, wherein, is x2 SS power, from same databook). Second - power of SS God is highly questionable and undetermined, its very difficult to determine, maybe SSG weaker than SS4--Date 07:46, August 10, 2014 (UTC)

The description of the DBSD panel is incorrect. the dialogue balloon (which translates to something like "you two (?) don't have any hair, so you don't change at all, huh?" -- sorry, I can't see how many people there are on the left, but it's "you plural"). I can't see exactly who it is she (Bulma) is speaking to, but it lookes kind of like Kame-sennin and someone else (Kuririn?). Could someone verify who is on the left side of the panel, since it's pretty clear that they are also "3". Ian Suttle (talk) 02:16, January 13, 2015 (UTC)

• The people are Roshi and Krillin, I didnt have the translation before so we assumed they were just Super Saiyan, I'll change it now.Neffyarious (talk) 03:08, January 13, 2015 (UTC)

Musings[]

I wonder if any Saiyan can achieve the Super Saiyan 3 once they know how it occurs even if they haven't gained the power to do so.--Aang13 (talk) 17:54, July 3, 2015 (UTC)

I think its possible, but I'm not so sure.--Aang13 (talk) 16:27, July 4, 2015 (UTC)

Probably not. If you specify they "haven't gained the power", then it sounds impossible. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 17:11, July 5, 2015 (UTC)

looklooklooklooklooklooklook[]

Whereisthisfromisitreal. — A ^{(t • c)} 17:12, August 14, 2015 (UTC)

It was already added. Sandubadear 17:16, August 14, 2015 (UTC)

Well, you beat that GameFAQs user in time. Good. — A ^{(t • c)} 17:19, August 14, 2015 (UTC)

Which one? The one who first added that was that guy who got permaban here and then created another account. Sandubadear 17:22, August 14, 2015 (UTC)

I don't know and I don't care, I'm already down from my high. — A ^{(t • c)}

Info box[]

I think I should run it by you guys first.

Tell me what you think.07:36, April 14, 2016 (UTC)

I think this is a pretty good idea. -- ~~ IST O L E T H E P I ES π 00:06, April 15, 2016 (UTC)

GREAT, now if only more could see it.  Tailsman67 ( Talk | Contribs | Edit Count )   00:17, April 15, 2016 (UTC)

This is pretty cool. I was actually thinking of doing something like this except for the series (DB, Z, Super, GT) a while back, sorta forgot about it though. I'm not sure about the errors it could potentially cause in monobook or mobile, though. It's likely working in all formats, but you never know. -- • Final Chidori • Talk 03:21, April 16, 2016 (UTC)

Doesn't show any image in mobile : / -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 17:02, April 16, 2016 (UTC)

WHA!? Really!? Crap, I'll try my best to get it to work.  Tailsman67 ( Talk | Contribs | Edit Count )   22:55, April 16, 2016 (UTC)

I think fundamentally that the entire article and even the gallery are the best place for multiple images. Either on is good in this case, but two is too complex for the infobox. Should simply scroll down and they'll all kinds of pictures. Clicking a tab seems harder to me. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 23:42, April 18, 2016 (UTC)

Oh come on dude, gimme another chance~! It's really innovated. How about now, can you see the images mobile? Cause I can.  Tailsman67 ( Talk | Contribs | Edit Count )   21:52, April 19, 2016 (UTC)

I can! Nice job. Well, just the anime version. The fact remains though that this is adding complexity to something that should be among the simplest parts of the page. Wikis are for quick reference when you don't want to waste time reading the whole series. The infobox is for people who don't even want to read an article. It should be painfully simple. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 00:57, April 21, 2016 (UTC)

Oh there should be an arrow on the side that changes the image. But yes, I get what you are saying, simplicity is good, but this is just...I would say an innovated way to please everybody. Yes the infobox is the first thing people would read, but these image tabs aren't REALLY effecting anything. I mean, they can still read the info box, nothing has really changed, they can just click on a tab and see a different image if they wanted to.   Tailsman67 ( Talk | Contribs | Edit Count )   05:14, April 21, 2016 (UTC)

On another note, I think that the manga picture should be the main image, it's a much larger and much clearer image of SS3, it's quality is also better.--Neffyarious (talk) 03:44, April 21, 2016 (UTC)

So no word on this yet?  Tailsman67 ( Talk | Contribs | Edit Count )   09:35, April 23, 2016 (UTC)

I don't believe this solution pleases everybody. It is easy to get caught in the trap of considering "everybody" to be everyone commenting on this page, or even all editors. In reality, there are a few hundred editors at any given time, but tens of thousands of readers. The readers are who we make the articles for. We should pick the best image, and use that one image for the infobox. Both images we're considering are fantastic. The manga image has closer detail, while the anime image represents the artistic style that more of the readers will be familiar with. I feel either will suffice. If I had to pick, I'd say anime by a small margin due to consistency with other articles, but I'm really, really okay with either choice. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 19:32, April 23, 2016 (UTC)

I understand you wanna keep stuff simple, but this isn't that big of a change. Hell, I hope to do this like what Chidori suggested, character pages having DB,Z,GT,Super tabs for images. I mean, I run over at the God of Highschool wiki, no one really finds problems with the tabs. But even so, when it all boils down to it, NOBODY HAS TO CLICK THE TABS, the infobox remains the same still just a slight change.   Tailsman67 ( Talk | Contribs | Edit Count )   23:42, April 23, 2016 (UTC)

I personally think this pretty cool. It shows the main image by default, and if the reader wishes to see the manga or anime version, he or she can easily click on one of the tabs. It also doesn't ruin the article for mobile users and I believe it works with all browsers and monobook. I can't really see this confusing anyone. -- • Final Chidori • Talk 00:44, April 24, 2016 (UTC)

And I fully agree.  Tailsman67 ( Talk | Contribs | Edit Count )   04:10, April 24, 2016 (UTC)

This would complicate things a lot. It's not just an extra button, it means choosing a default media type for every article infobox and removes our freedom to pick a single best image for the infobox for readers to casually view. Everyone can scroll to the gallery and even see the many images of each character throughout the article body. This does not allow anyone to get any more info or see any images that they wouldn't see already. It only makes something that should be simple into something complicated. There is no benefit whatsoever. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 02:25, April 25, 2016 (UTC)

Choosing a default image is the same as choosing the "best" image. The "best" image we find could be the default while the manga alternative can be placed behind the button. It's rare for articles to have manga infobox pictures anyway. Theoretically, yes, anyone can scroll to the gallery. This however gives a simple alternative allowing someone to see the best manga image possible at the top of the page while not removing their ability to see the best anime image at the top as well. The galleries are often cluttered with pictures and I rarely see anyone actually use them. I honestly can't remember the last time I looked at a gallery. I don't see how this complicates anything at all, it's an easy to ignore button in the corner. Many other wikis use this system without running into any problems. Just my 2c, though. -- • Final Chidori • Talk 02:38, April 25, 2016 (UTC)

There are two things very wrong with what you just said. First this is NOT a button that can simply be ignored. Whichever media type we pick as the default is going to be seen by anyone who doesn't push the button (or can't, such as all mobile users). That means that if anime is the default, we have now lost the ability to use a manga image, video game, movie, or anything else as the default infobox pic. We're losing capability for no reason. Second, you've pointed out that you think the gallery needs a cleanup, but instead of performing a cleanup you would rather mess up the infobox too. Yah, no. The solution to a messy gallery is clean the gallery. We don't go around reformatting major page components because we can't make up our minds. Let's pick an image and move on. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 03:00, April 25, 2016 (UTC)

And now I've feel like I've caused more harm than good..., are we fighting for the tab or the main image? Cause I never said we should change the main image...   Tailsman67 ( Talk | Contribs | Edit Count )   04:16, April 25, 2016 (UTC)

Oh, I understand your point now, I thought you meant something else before. The thing is, just about all infoboxes that aren't chapters/movies/video games are from the anime. By that, I mean that almost all material from the actual show has an anime image as its main infobox image. Hopefully that makes sense. The only two I can think of off the top of my head that have manga images are this page and Gohan, and this one is being changed for consistency.

There also should be another alternative. I believe there's a way to make one of the options the default on a specific page. If the page already has a manga image, we could simply make that the default and give the reader an option to view the anime one. I do understand what you're saying, 10X, but I think this infobox setting is pretty neat and I'd love to find a way to make it work to suit the wiki's needs. -- • Final Chidori • Talk 02:16, April 26, 2016 (UTC)

It's needless complexity. Which is easier, scrolling or clicking? It's a matter of opinion. However, we already have a gallery, so we don't need this too. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 00:42, April 27, 2016 (UTC)

I still don't understand how this is needless complexity. It's a fairly simple piece of code that adds a button allowing readers to switch images. This button should not interfere with anything else but adding a toggle switch between manga and anime for the infobox. It's been tested and it doesn't ruin the mobile expirience. The only problem I see with this is that it defaults to anime, but I believe there's a way to change the default depending on the page.

The reason I think this is helpful is because the galleries of some pages (mostly the main ones) have too many images. This allows two images (the best of the anime and the best of the manga) to have a space on the infobox on the top of the page allowing someone to easily see them without sifting through tons of images in the gallery. -- • Final Chidori • Talk 01:13, April 27, 2016 (UTC)

Again, you've pointed out that you think the gallery needs a cleanup, but instead of performing a cleanup you would rather mess up the infobox too. Yah, no. The solution to a messy gallery is clean the gallery. We don't go around reformatting major page components because we can't make up our minds. Let's pick an image and move on. I'm not trying to be a jerk by repeating myself, but you said the exact same thing again after I told you why it didn't make sense. Fix the broken thing, don't give up on it and make a simple thing complicated to cover up an area of improvement. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 03:37, April 30, 2016 (UTC)

You're not being a jerk, don't worry. This is a discussion page after all, and I apologize for repeating myself a few times too.

I'm not trying to say that the galleries are messy and that they need to be cleaned, I'm just saying that they often have too many pictures. Let's take Goku for example. This page has tons of great pictures in it and I think having a lot of pictures is great - for people who want to see them. However, sometimes people would just like to see the single best manga picture, if that makes sense. I don't think it's simpler or easier for readers to scroll down to the bottom of the page, open the gallery in another tab, wait for the page with hundreds of images to load, then to scroll down and view one that accurately represents Goku in the manga. I know this is an extreme example since Goku is the main character (so he probably has one of the biggest galleries), and that we wouldn't run into the same problem looking for a more minor character or item. But my point is that in the cases of characters like Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Gohan, Trunks, etc. , a simple toggle button on the top of the infobox is very helpful. We shouldn't, of course, add to to literally every page. Just pages that are "in need" of it.

On the subject of the button being complicated, can you please explain to me why it's complicated? From a reader's perspective, it'll just be a tabber button in the corner of the infobox, sort of like the Bleach wiki's tabbers, except I'd even argue that ours are simpler due to the hard-to-miss buttons. Just to be clear, I don't think we should clean up the gallery since it's fulfilling its purpose, which is showing the readers a wide range of images from the manga, anime, movies, etc. which is important. -- • Final Chidori • Talk 13:57, April 30, 2016 (UTC)

It's overly complicated because if we want to show two images, we should just show two images. One can be in the infobox, and the next can be very early in the article. It's automatically there just by looking, no interaction needed. Having to realize the word "manga" is interactive is more complicated than having your eyes open while viewing the article. We can put both images there in front of the viewer with zero interaction needed. Anything more than putting it right there for them, including links hidden in black lettering, is more complex and in this case worse. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 00:38, May 3, 2016 (UTC)

Even if the reader doesn't realize that the word "manga" is interactive, I still don't understand how that's detracting from the article. If the user sees and clicks it, it helps them. If the user does not see/click it, then the article is the exact same as it would be without the tabber. Even if 50% of the people don't understand that the tabber is interactive, we'd still be helping 50% of the readers who do. Could we maybe ask some other wikis that use tabbers about what problems they run into when using them? I feel like their experience would be valuable. -- • Final Chidori • Talk 01:25, May 3, 2016 (UTC)

Other anime wikis, like the One Punch Man wiki, have done this with their infoboxes and have been fine. It's not nearly as distracting as you think. Plus, most people can reason that, if there is a box with the word "manga" in it, it will likely show the manga picture. It's not uncommon for wikis to have tabs in infoboxes. ~~ IST O L E T H E P I ES π 01:48, May 3, 2016 (UTC)

It's detracting by not having the 2nd best image anywhere else on the article, and nowhere at all for anyone using mobile. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 22:19, May 4, 2016 (UTC)

Having it as a toggle option in the infobox doesn't stop it from being anywhere else in the article. The articles themselves will be unchanged, only an an extra infobox button should be added. -- • Final Chidori • Talk 16:43, May 7, 2016 (UTC)

It doesn't make sense to have the same image twice in an article. Isn't it a little ironic to say we have too many images and then suggest we start having multiple copies of some of the same images? -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 02:30, May 8, 2016 (UTC)

An image like this causes no clutter and doesn't increase the loading times by a noticeable amount, as opposed to hundreds of gallery images which have to load in a seperate tab. -- • Final Chidori • Talk 03:23, May 8, 2016 (UTC)

You seem super passionate about this, and in the end it's a small issue. Who am I to stop an editor from trying something new. Go for it. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 03:42, May 8, 2016 (UTC)

Sweet, thanks dude. For now, I think it should remain on smaller pages as sort of a "test run". I'll ask some other admins from other wikis about potential issues, though. Hopefully this can be implemented on main pages soon. -- • Final Chidori • Talk 03:46, May 8, 2016 (UTC)

Yikes, that was scary...glad you considered it 10x.  Tailsman67 ( Talk | Contribs | Edit Count )   01:30, May 9, 2016 (UTC)

Nothing scary about a civil debate haha. Anyways, Tailsman, would you by any chance know how to scale images inside of the tabber? I can't get it to work for some reason. -- • Final Chidori • Talk 01:46, May 9, 2016 (UTC)

Scratch that, I found out why it wasn't working. -- • Final Chidori • Talk 02:00, May 9, 2016 (UTC)

I'm not a fan of tabbers within infoboxes personally. One reason being you end up cornering yourself needing to be consistent with the articles and end up having to add these tabber/manga pictures on every page (or at least every character page). Or else you end up only having the option on select pages which will end up confusing readers wondering why some pages have a "manga" picture while others don't in the infobox.

Also not everyone knows infoboxes can be interactive. So you have the issue of people not knowing it even exists. So if you have to have an alternate picture in the infobox, at the very least you need it again in the gallery. As not every reader will know to look in an infobox if they're seeking a specific manga picture, whereas "gallery" is a direct area for images they're searching for. Which in that case, it's redundant to repeat an image already in the gallery to "sneakily hide it" in the infobox (and I say hiding because it's not in clear view for the reader, thus they won't know it's there) only to appeal to a small select few readers/editors that know it's there.

Tabbers in infoboxes in my opinion are very niche, and don't really serve a great purpose other than trying to hide something in the infobox if the reader is smart enough to find it. So if you guys want to test it out and see how it goes that's fine, but I think it's not going to be something for the long run as it's confusing/not everyone knows about it/and specific images people are looking for already have a place in the gallery/and or somewhere in the article within content text. Not to mention I went on mobile and the current tabbers in the infoboxes do not work.--Riptoze 03:16, May 9, 2016 (UTC)

All good points Ripto, everything you said is true, including incompatibility with mobile (it just shows the first image, not both tabs). This will be a test to see what people think of it for awhile. If people like it we'll keep it. If everyone hates it we'll go back to no tabbers on this page. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 23:12, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

Great point about the consistency, Ripto, however I think with enough time we'll manage to get all the pages that are in need of them. It shouldn't be *that* hard considering there's many colored manga pictures uploaded on here already, so on most pages it's just a matter of sifting through the gallery and finding a suitable one. If the trail period ends up being successful, I was actually thinking about starting a "club" (similar to the citation corp) of people willing to go around and add images. Could be a fun way of getting some more editors involved. I may be thinking too far ahead for now, though.

I personally think the images in the tabber shouldn't affect the images on the page. For example, if I find a good manga image of Goku in his gallery and add it to the infobox, I wouldn't remove the image from the gallery. Yes, it could be considered redundant to have two of the same images on the same article, but I can't see it detracting from the quality of the article itself. If the user knows about the tabber, s/he will click on it and get the image that way. If the user doesn't know or is on mobile, then the article appears the exact same as it would without the tabber.

I can't really argue against your point about some users not being smart enough to click on the buttons in the tabber. The only solution I can think of would be a "click here to change image!" caption above the tabber and that would be intrusive and ugly in the infobox itself. In the end, yes, some people will get it when others don't. In my mind though, it's not too different from ref tags. They provide great sources for articles, but I know for a fact that a good amount of readers never really bother clicking on the little numbers above some of the sentences.

I completely agree, though, if we run into problems or get negative feedback we should definitely switch back to no tabbers. -- • Final Chidori • Talk 23:35, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

My gut tells me^{[reference needed]} that the majority of our site views are mobile anyway. Both Safari/Android and through our app "Wikia Fan App for: Dragonball". It sure would have been nice if we had some input in that app, maybe they would have spelled the name of the series correctly if we did... -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 00:39, May 11, 2016 (UTC)

Whenever there is a new feature or suggestion to be incorporated into the styling of editing (in this case, altering the current infoboxes), the defense for making a change should not be "it won't hurt to have it". Instead, we should question ourselves "what will it improve?". From my perspective, I am not seeing any benefit from tabbers within an infobox. The biggest part being that it's not currently working on mobile.

Giving the benefit that it would work eventually on mobile, the only reason "for" a change would be "some people would know the infobox is interactive and can switch between two common images of said article". That reason is not beneficial towards every reader. It's catering to a fraction of viewers that know of the ability. Infoboxes by design are meant to be important points in quick readable format. In regards to reference tags, that's within sight of the reader. So if they don't click them, it's not because they don't see it, it's because they don't want to. My opinion is, it's better to have something in sight of the reader, even if they ignore some areas (like the reference tags). It's still in their sight, and they know it's there. Tabbers aren't in plain sight of the reader, so viewer wise, it's easier for the majority of people to see everything in front of them at once without much searching for hidden buttons.

It's an alright thing to test out certainly. So I'm not against that, and I'm interested to see what people think, but I do like to weight the pros and cons of changes like that. Bottom line is, it's a luxury feature to appeal to select people who know what it does and adds a bell and a whistle to the infobox. --Riptoze 02:14, May 11, 2016 (UTC)

It's strange how you say you can't change the other image on mobile....don't you see an arrow? Either way...just means I gotta fix it.  Tailsman67 ( Talk | Contribs | Edit Count )   16:02, May 15, 2016 (UTC)

What arrow? -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 21:43, May 15, 2016 (UTC)

YOU DON'T SEE THE ARROW? Huh? I see it very well. it's like, almost to the center...  Tailsman67 ( Talk | Contribs | Edit Count )   13:59, May 18, 2016 (UTC)

Nope, no arrow. Just the words Anime and Manga that have to be clicked. But there's no hint they are clickable. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 02:50, May 20, 2016 (UTC)

Hi, im new here and i cant edit this page, so please someone can add Gohanks: Xeno because he achieved this form in Dragon Ball Heroes recently, Thanks 18:41, Sep 26, 2018 (CET)

Prince of Destruction Super Saiyan 3[]

A user believes that saying "Additionally, Vegeta gained a corrupted version of the form, named Prince of Destruction Super Saiyan 3 (Hakaioji Super Saiyan 3)." is adding false information and trying to create a form or something like that.  Goku20  Talk  ULTRA DBZ  ULTRA POKEMON  19:28,9/19/2016 

Almost 40 editions in one day, all of someone undoing another's edit. Guys Come on! use this resource to solve the problem ~ Yon ~Visit my talk page! 19:10, September 20, 2016 (UTC)

If you have seen my edit summary's you will know I have been trying to get the user to but he won't I tried yesterday to and before that but yea heck I made this section so it could be discussed.  Goku20  Talk  ULTRA DBZ  ULTRA POKEMON  19:13,9/20/2016 

In the card, it is written "Hakaio" because it is referring to the Majin version of Vegeta, and "Super Saiyan 3", referring to which transformation is being used.

Now I am just waiting someone to provide a source that this is a corrupted version of Super Saiyan 3. As long no one provides... Well, I can do this all day. Bargeta (talk) 19:18, September 20, 2016 (UTC)

The info is to stay in the article as it was put in till an overall consensuses is reached here so leave the article alone till then (at least on that info).  Goku20  Talk  ULTRA DBZ  ULTRA POKEMON  19:24,9/20/2016 

Dark Masked King can use this form[]

https://i.imgur.com/MFFehIJ.jpg

Dark masked king confirmed as a super saiyan 3 (Hadrimon (talk) 13:11, December 14, 2017 (UTC))

No thats Bardock: Xeno putting the mask back on to achieve the form 18:45, Sep 26, 2018 (CET)