Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Cycling

Hi all. Those of you that watch many cyclist biographies will know that I do a lot of work in categorisation and place of birth categories. Recently I have been working on completing the splitting of biographies into the relevant male/female category. At the same time I've taken the opportunity to tidy up infoboxes, amongst other things ensuring that the place of birth, if known, is detailed in the field in {{Infobox cyclist}}.

I've also been trying to keep things simple and keep these places of birth to City, Country. However, User:Buzzards-Watch Me Work has changed a few to include country sub divisions. These include edits to André Cardoso and Thomas Dekker (cyclist). I want to bring to discussion here as I don't think including most country subdivisions is appropriate in infoboxes. Now there will a discussion to be had about whether they are appropriate for some countries in particular (eg the UK, US, Australia or Canada) but I think, in the main, this adds a level inappropriate to infoboxes. In these two examples in particular, I think that Porto, Porto, Portugal and Amsterdam, North Holland, Netherlands don't add anything for the reader.

As such, I have brought here for discussion if there are any thoughts about what might be preferred as a general rule. Severo (talk) 17:48, 13 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

At first, great work you've done! Thank you for creating all the categories! Regarding to your question, in my opinion the city and the country is enough. If you want to know where the city is located you can click on the wikilink. Sander.v.Ginkel (talk) 19:44, 13 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

It seems that the only argument against listing country subdivisions is that it will confuse the readers. I find that hard to believe.

If I was going to tell someone where I was born, I would say Silver Spring, Maryland, not Silver Spring, United States. I think in many of these case cyclists born in a particular provinces - for example - would use the provinces's name when referring to their place of birth.

For the record, you changed the country subdivisions - I simply returned it to its previous state. Buzzards-Watch Me Work (talk) 19:55, 13 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

Saying Silver Spring, Maryland would be appropriate if you talk to somebody from the USA. If you would say it to me, I would not know where it was. OK, I would guess USA, but I honestly did not know that Maryland is one of the 50 states, and it would confuse me, where Silver Spring, United States would not confuse me. The alternative Silver Spring, Maryland, USA would not confuse me at all.

This discussion must have been done before on Wikipedia, but I could not find anything on it. I would say that normal usage should be City, Country, with perhaps exceptions of City, Subdivisional entity, Country for US States, the countries of the UK and the republics in the Sovjet Union. Not for districts in Portugal or provinces in the Netherlands. --EdgeNavidad (Talk · Contribs) 19:04, 14 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

The point I'm trying to make is why not list the city, highest order subdivision and country (e.g. Silver Spring, Maryland, U.S. - Dover, England, U.K. - Amsterdam, North Holland, Netherlands - Victoria, British Colombia, Canada, est.) in the info box? I see no explanations why it shouldn't be listed. Just like I say Silver Spring, Maryland for someone in the U.S. - I think people in the Netherlands - for example - would do the same with Dutch provinces. Buzzards-Watch Me Work (talk) 19:45, 14 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

Im born in the Netherlands and when I tell someone where I live I just say the city (Woerden) and sometimes I add 'near Utrecht'. Not in particular the province. Thats the way how most people tell it in the Netherlands. Sander.v.Ginkel (talk) 16:20, 15 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

From another Dutch editor: it is quite unusual to add the province that you live in, the only exception I can think of is if several different towns share the same name. It may be normal USA behavior — that's why I agree with an exception for the USA — but in most countries of which I know these habits, the subdivision is normally not mentioned. "Most countries of which I know these habits" is clearly a minority of all countries, so I am not an expert on this. I can say for sure that Amsterdam, North Holland, Netherlands is not normal, and I am 80% sure that Porto, Porto, Portugal is not normal. --EdgeNavidad (Talk · Contribs) 17:17, 15 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

Maybe I'm wrong about the Dutch. But I'm 100% certain that Americans use states, Australians use provinces/territories, British use kingdoms, Canadians use provinces/territories, Spanish use autonomous communities, and Swiss use cantons when referring to their birthplace or residence. So how do we distinguish when to list the highest order subdivision? Buzzards-Watch Me Work (talk) 18:04, 15 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

By keeping things simple: City, Country except for the US, UK, Australia, Canada and - historically - the USSR. Severo (talk) 19:10, 15 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

Making exceptions for selected countries rather than applying a universal rule does not sound like "keeping things simple". —sroc 💬 12:38, 17 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

An(other) option to prevent that the lines will become long is the use of abbreviations (see List of U.S. state abbreviations). So for instance: Silver Spring (MD), United States. Sander.v.Ginkel (talk) 10:06, 16 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

Strong oppose using state abbreviations, which assume the reader knows what the abbreviations mean, which they probably won't unless they're from that country. Two-letter US state abbreviations are a prime example and a sign of US-centrism. —sroc 💬 12:38, 17 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

I have asked at the Manual of Style if there is anything MoS-related to this.--EdgeNavidad (Talk · Contribs) 17:47, 16 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

If we're going to abbreviate - we should abbreviate the country not the subdivision. Personally I don't think we need to abbreviate anything - I mean Silver Spring, Maryland, U.S. isn't that long. Also, should we list Flanders and Wallonia when writing about Belgium? Buzzards-Watch Me Work (talk) 21:21, 16 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

No. There's very few examples where we should include subdivision. I don't think anywhere in Europe outside of the UK is appropriate. Severo (talk) 21:25, 16 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

One of my friends is from Wallonia - according to him it's more common to identify with your region than with the Belgium state. Buzzards-Watch Me Work (talk) 21:34, 16 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

So is one of mine and firmly calls himself Belgian. This gets all very anecdotal. Severo (talk) 08:32, 17 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

The documentation at the general infobox template for people, Template:Infobox person, offers this explanation for the birth_place parameter:

Place of birth: city, administrative region, sovereign state. Use the name of the birthplace at the time of birth, e.g.: Saigon (prior to 1976), Ho Chi Minh City (post 1976). Do not use a flag template.

I see no reason why specific infobox templates (e.g., {{Infobox cyclist}}) should stray from this. That said, I'm sure examples abound of exceptions to this general rule:

• Margaret Thatcher — born: "Grantham, England"; died: "London, England"
• Stephen Fry — born: "Hampstead, London" (omits the country)
• Stephen Hawking — born: "Oxford, England"
• Julia Gillard — born: "Barry, Wales, United Kingdom" (also includes UK
• Flume (musician) — born: "Sydney, Australia"
• Silvio Berlusconi — born: "Milan, Italy"

I would suggest that the administrative region should be included in an infobox. It's statistical information so there's no awkwardness to avoid like there is in prose. —sroc 💬 21:55, 16 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

I saw this but couldn't quite understand it - given there is not widespread adherence to it nor could I find a discussion that led to it? (Finding discussions in the archive there is pretty difficult though so there is quite possibly some discussion.) I'm concerned that including this is connected to Systemic bias as it's more important in some English-speaking countries than elsewhere. Severo (talk) 08:32, 17 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

I might add that I don't think the relevant consideration is "What would I say if someone asked me where I was born?" The answer may depend on context (we might omit the state/province/region and/or country depending on where we are when we say this, where the other person is from, what information we expect the other person might need to know what you mean) and may take a more fluid style (e.g., "Woerden, near Utrecht"). This is not indicative of how data should be presented in an infobox, which is designed to be helpful. I see no harm in stating city, state/province/region and country (and any other pertinent sub-divisions, if applicable) in the infobox, and doing so consistently across Wikipedia. The prose can be flexible, of course. This would also promote consistency for cases of ambiguity, e.g.:

• Perth, Western Australia, Australia
• Perth, Tasmania, Australia

If we omit the state, a reference to "Perth, Australia" becomes ambiguous. If we include the state only when needed for disambiguation: (a) this leads to inconsistency; (b) this requires checking to see whether there are any other cities/towns with the same name in the same country, which leads to more effort. —sroc 💬 12:33, 17 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

{{infobox person}} and {{infobox writer}} both use the Nationality field which typically displays American, Australian, British, Canadian (perhaps linked but some editors systematically unlink them). There is some discussion and widespread practice omitting the country from birth/deathplace when those places match the nationality. (Frequently I add the country--but never United States or United Kingdom spelled out--to one of the place fields when there is a nationality match, and always add it when there is a mismatch.) At a glance I conclude {{infobox cyclist}} gives no nationality, not even membership of a national team that mismatches the birthplace. Perhaps it should and I think the oft-deprecated FLAG may be a welcome part of it.

The miscellaneous examples given here are dangerous. For example, Margaret Thatcher uses {{infobox officeholder}} with caption that identifies her by a national office. Flume (musician) uses {{infobox musical artist}} whose field label is 'Origin' not 'Born'. I suppose it means musical roots.

Anyway I see no reason for WP Cycling to depart from the persons norm that supports "North Holland" Thomas Dekker (cyclist) as well as "Maryland". I don't recommend linking or fully-spelling so many place names, however. --P64 (talk) 19:14, 17 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

Julia Gillard also uses the {{Infobox Officeholder}} infobox as Prime Minister of Australia but she was born in Wales. George Orwell uses {{Infobox writer}} to indicate he was born in India although he was English. What's your point? We shouldn't assume that a person's birthplace (or place of death) corresponds with their nationality or the country where they held office. What's the harm in including this information for consistency? —sroc 💬 02:43, 27 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

Flags in infoboxes have been deprecated for a long long time (see WP:INFOBOXFLAG). That's really not going to get anywhere although you're more than welcome to propose it at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Icons. I would still like to see the discussion that led to the guidance at {{Infobox person}} if anyone can find it. Severo (talk) 00:00, 18 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

Don't think there was any discussion, as far as I can see from the page history and Template talk:Infobox person/Archive 1. User:Zyxw wrote some documentation for the parameters on 14 June 2007, including "Place of birth: city, state, country (or other location info, depending on local usage)". The next day The Enlightened amended the birth and death location documentation to its current form "to be less US-centric". Qwfp (talk) 10:28, 18 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

The Enlightened's action had the side effect that in some sense it became more US-centric, since the depending on local usage clause was omitted... If I would have to write the documentation, it would include the depending on local usage clause, and ideally would refer to a list of countries that use subdivision, and a list of countries that don't. Is it a wise idea to stop the discussion here, and go to Template talk:Infobox person?--EdgeNavidad (Talk · Contribs) 14:37, 18 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

Thanks Qwfp. I had a look but wasn't getting anywhere. I think it is time to move to Template talk:Infobox person. It's a whole bigger issue than I first envisaged and one which should be treated on a much wider scale. Severo (talk) 14:44, 18 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

The teamname of the women's team Hitec Products UCK is Hitec Products as of 2014. But because this title has been protected from creation, I can't move the page. Can someone with special rights do this? Sander.v.Ginkel (talk) 16:24, 15 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

The process to do it is at Wikipedia:Requested moves - I would do it but I'm just checking in for a minute. It's a technical uncontroversial move :) . Severo (talk) 17:14, 15 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

I've now added it. I haven't see the problem of page protected against creation holding up a cycling team article move before! Severo (talk) 19:15, 15 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

Thank you! But sorry that it's a bit more complicated than I thought..! Sander.v.Ginkel (talk) 10:09, 16 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

Some admins have got involved as it's a more complicated one and the discussion is at Talk:Hitec Products UCK. Severo (talk) 17:15, 16 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

Hi folks. Just wondering if I could get your opinion on something, please? I've noticed recently that Emma Pooley's article has had a number of amateur and semi-pro athletics events (e.g. 10km races, triathlons, etc.) added to her palmarès list. This seems odd to me, as many of them seem to be the sort of thing she's doing for recreation rather than as part of her front line competition career. However, not being an expert in these things and not knowing how your Wikiproject handles the Palmarès lists I thought I'd pose the question here: should they be included? Thanks. Pyrope 18:29, 17 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

Some of hers would be notable results for a notable runner/triathlete, even though they are fundamentally recreational for her (eg 1st Lausanne Marathon 2013) but some of the others (eg 1st Neujahrsmarathon Zurich, 10k run 2009) are not so I don't think should be included. Severo (talk) 18:47, 17 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

Perhaps these results are better off in a second smaller palmarès, so as not to be confused with cycling events? Mango101 (talk) 23:38, 17 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

Since there is also a famous cyclist named Li Na, I just wanted this project to be aware of a move request at Talk:Li Na (tennis). Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:10, 5 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

Can anyone answer the question I posted at: Talk:Bardiani-CSF#Country info? If so please respond there. ww2censor (talk) 22:29, 8 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

Dear cyclists: This old abandoned Afc submission is soon to be deleted as a stale draft. Is this a notable topic, and, if so, does someone here know where to find reliable sources? —Anne Delong (talk) 02:39, 10 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

Linkidy link. Seems team pages are handled differently than I remember from back when I was more active, so I'm not sure what the appropriate edit to {{LTB2014riders}} is. Is Kaisen simply removed, or is a footnote added? That'd be why I'm leaving this notice here. I took care of Kaisen's own page as well as {{Lotto-Belisol riders}}. Green-eyed girl (Talk · Contribs) 22:53, 10 February 2014 (UTC)Reply