Talk:List of Formula One fatalities

@DH85868993: I've seen the archived discussion linked but since that discussion took place 7 years ago before the facts were released I think we should open another discussion here. I don't see why she shouldn't be included in the list, she died from complications relating to her injuries sustained during the accident, unless there's some other requirement I'm missing here? FozzieHey (talk) 09:26, 23 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

I don't see that anything has changed since then. Her accident contributed to her death, or was an indirect cause of her death, but I don't believe her accident can be described as a fatal accident, or an F1 fatality. The length of time between her accident and her death, and the degree of recovery she made during that time, make her case fall outside the criteria for this list, in my view. Bretonbanquet (talk) 21:53, 23 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

The consensus back then was based on the fact that she did not die in the initial incident. Since then we've had the tragic accident of Jules Bianchi which has made it onto this list. The forensic Doctor did say her death was "a consequence of the neurological injuries she suffered" and she was in a critical condition after the crash. FozzieHey (talk) 21:59, 23 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

There's no comparison between de Villota and Bianchi. He was in a coma and never regained consciousness. De Villota recovered to a large degree before her death. I would imagine there are a number of drivers who have died as an indirect result of an accident, having recovered somewhat in between. Bretonbanquet (talk) 22:05, 23 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

Then you'd also have to define "recovered to a large degree". From my understanding Maria still had severe brain damage, was in a critical state after the accident and lost her right eye. I'd imagine there are other drivers as well, and if it can be proven would you object to them being added to the list? FozzieHey (talk) 22:20, 23 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

If there is to be even the smallest chance of my supporting the addition of de Villota I am going to need direct quotes from the autopsy/doctors (not journalistic interpretation of direct quotes) that support this (media quoting autopsy is acceptable but a copy of the autopsy (if that's even a public document)) would be preferable) complete with citations as to where you got these direct quotes (WP:V). Also note that googling "Maria de Viollota autopsy" the majority of results say she died of natural causes.
SSSB (talk) 22:10, 23 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

So "a consequence of the neurological injuries she suffered" wouldn't count? The BBC are listed as generally reliable under WP:RSP and it does seem to be a direct quote. FozzieHey (talk) 22:20, 23 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

That does not make it a fatal accident. Lauda died from kidney problems, and his kidneys were always damaged after he inhaled toxic gases and suffered blood poisoning due to his accident. He'd have realistically lived longer had it not been for his accident but that doesn't make it a direct consequence. There are probably many other examples. Bretonbanquet (talk) 22:33, 23 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

Lauda died 43 years after his accident, Maria died 1 year after hers. In fact I'm not sure how half of the drivers are included in this article based on the current definition, does anyone who died any amount of time after the initial accident fit into the current definition in the lead? "This list includes drivers who have died during a FIA World Championship event (including practice, qualifying and the race), and those who have died while driving modern or vintage Formula One cars outside the World Championship. Track marshals and other race attendees who have died as a result of these accidents are not included in the list." FozzieHey (talk) 22:39, 23 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

The principle is basically the same. The wording in the lead probably isn't the best, and I think the whole list is problematic; I've always said that. But everyone on there either died in the accident itself, very shortly afterwards, or in a small number of cases, some time afterwards either without regaining consciousness or without leaving hospital having no chance of recovery (Taylor, Lewis-Evans). Peterson is an odd case but every other list includes him. Bretonbanquet (talk) 23:23, 23 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

The current definition of "This list includes drivers who have died during a FIA World Championship event (including practice, qualifying and the race), and those who have died while driving modern or vintage Formula One cars outside the World Championship. Track marshals and other race attendees who have died as a result of these accidents are not included in the list." does not allign with the current entries in the list, under my understanding the following drivers shouldn't be included based on the current definition:

• Cameron Earl
• Charles de Tornaco
• Manny Ayulo
• Luigi Musso
• Peter Collins
• Stuart Lewis-Evans
• Jerry Unser Jr.
• Bob Cortner
• Gary Hocking
• Carel Godin de Beaufort
• John Taylor
• Lorenzo Bandini
• Bob Anderson
• Jochen Rindt
• Mark Donohue
• Ronnie Peterson
• Gilles Villeneuve
• Riccardo Paletti
• Elio de Angelis
• Jules Bianchi
• David Ferrer

At it's current state this article does not meet the featured article requirements and if we cannot amend the definition we should submit it to WP:FLRC. FozzieHey (talk) 13:13, 25 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

To clarify, you think the drivers you have listed there should not be included? Bretonbanquet (talk) 13:54, 25 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

Based on the current definition in the lead the drivers above shouldn't be listed, I think we should amend the definition to include them. FozzieHey (talk) 13:55, 25 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

Right, I'm with you. I am definitely open to changing the wording. Bretonbanquet (talk) 13:57, 25 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

Perhaps something along the lines of This list includes drivers who have died as a direct result of injuries sustained during a FIA World Championship event (including practice, qualifying and the race), and those who have died as a direct result of injuries sustained while driving modern or vintage Formula One cars outside the World Championship. Track marshals and other race attendees who have died as a result of these accidents are not included in the list. (Bolded additions and struck trough removals for easy comparisons)?
SSSB (talk) 14:49, 25 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

What would be considered a reliable source for the claim of "direct result", many of these incidents happened many decades ago, it may be hard to find verifiable sources for this information. FozzieHey (talk) 14:52, 25 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

I like that wording better already. As for sourcing "direct result", would these really be contentious in any way? Are they likely to be challenged? If a driver died of his injuries the same day or two or three days later, or simply without regaining consciousness, it's self-evident that it was a direct result of the accident. Bretonbanquet (talk) 14:55, 25 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

For those incidents I'm sure there's newspaper articles that we can find that will backup those claims, however I'm unsure about the "edge cases" where the driver has died several weeks after the incident. FozzieHey (talk) 14:56, 25 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

@FozzieHey: - which drivers in particular (no need to list all, just some so I know what kind you mean). This new definition does include Bianchi (for example) who (quoted from his article) Bianchi died on 17 July 2015, aged 25, from injuries sustained at the time of his accident in Suzuka nine months prior.
SSSB (talk) 15:01, 25 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

As discussed in other discussions, Ronnie Peterson does seem to be one of these "edge" cases, it's unclear whether his death was caused by doctor's decisions or the nature of the accident, again one could presume that he died directly because of the accident but then we do run into the crystal ball issue, also María de Villota as the doctor was quoted as saying the incident contributed to her death but she did recover somewhat inbetween. FozzieHey (talk) 15:08, 25 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

I don't think de Villota would be an edge case as her injuries contributed to but did not directly cause her death (quote from her article) De Villota's death was a consequence of neurological injuries - not direct cause.

Peterson would be fringe and given he died of an embolism (not direct) we may have to do another rewording. Perhaps some condition that if they died of unrelated injuries but without improvement and within a certain time frame they are elligable?
SSSB (talk) 15:18, 25 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

Another possibility would be, in cases such as Peterson's, include him using the same criteria as everyone else, but add text notes explaining his particular case. Bretonbanquet (talk) 15:30, 25 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

That is how we have gotten into this situation though, notes. If there's only going to be very few edge cases then I guess it could work but otherwise we need a clear and consistent inclusion critera. FozzieHey (talk) 15:36, 25 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

I think there are very few though. I think Peterson's is basically a one-off, and the other edge cases consist of those drivers who hung on for a longer time before dying, namely Bianchi and Taylor, and to a lesser extent, Lewis-Evans, Bandini... We still need watertight wording though for the main criteria. Bretonbanquet (talk) 15:42, 25 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

I propose that a column for cause of death be added to the table of fatalities, and a sub-section that shows cause of deathL.H. (talk) 22:23, 3 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Dinosaur Rider, this is not as easy to insert as it sounds. For some drivers the exact cause of death is debatable (for example Alan Stacey). Also I feel it would be insensistive to put "decapitated" next to Chris Bristow's name.

Unless you can provide some evidence that cause of death in reguraly included in other "list[s] of f1 fatalities" I will be unconvinced that it's inclusion is necessary.
SSSB (talk) 07:36, 4 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Seems a little morbid and unnecessarily graphic to me. Bretonbanquet (talk) 19:22, 4 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

So if they are not mentioned here could someone at least please tell if there is any Website where I can see them? Like those people from Wolfgang von Trips' death or the the Fire Marshal that was hit by Tom Pryce or the "Race attendees" from the Cuba Grand Prix and that Engineer killed in the 1981(?) Belgian Grand Prix etc etc? (2804:29C4:16A:F100:380F:B1C1:2447:9972 (talk) 22:57, 12 October 2020 (UTC))Reply

Please would an interested editor assess the rearranged and added material at User:Gohumanity/List of Formula One fatalities, incorporate what is useful, blank that page as WP:COPYARTICLE, and leave a note here when done? – Fayenatic London 08:58, 6 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

I personally think it would be good to list all F1 driver deaths that occurred in practice outside a race weekend (although the article lists many, e.g. Elio de Angelis, Peter Revson, etc, it is missing others). For some who is looking for an F1 driver who was killed in a racecar, there's currently no good way to find them. I was looking for Alberto Ascari, but he wasn't here (I found him another way) - I guess because he was killed testing a sports car. I admit the edges are tricky; Bruce McLaren was an F1 driver, but was killed testing a CanAm car. Noel (talk) 21:11, 16 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Now that I think about it, this doesn't have be done with a page - a category would do it. ('F1 drivers killed on track'.) I don't have the energy to set it up, though! :-) Noel (talk) 00:24, 17 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Noel: I'd suggest getting support for the category from other editors before implementing it. You may like to start a conversation at the Formula One WikiProject. DH85868993 (talk) 06:45, 18 August 2022 (UTC)Reply