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If it was mentioned in the Amarna letters, then it wasn't derived from Hebrew because Hebrew didn't exist then. Zero^talk 02:56, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As the article also notes in the first paragraph of the history, the term used in that correspondence is also Bit-Laḫmi, which does not fit neatly with either of the fairly dubious modern Hebrew/Arabic "etymologies" at all. Definitely merits further exploration of reliable sources - that it dates to the Egypt-Canaan phase must mean it has roots either in or before then. Iskandar323 (talk) 05:48, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Altogether too much weight seems is resting on the 2010 De Gruyter publication, which was also misdated as being from 2018. This collection of inscriptions is in no way an in-depth scholarly analysis on the subject, but despite this is cited alone to discount the longstanding Lahmu/Lahamu theory as "generally rejected". This is not only a very casual dismissal of past scholarship, but not obviously accurate, as this etymology is certainly still in active currency in scholarly circles, as various examples, such as this 2016 academic paper (page 219) attests. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:10, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Iskandar323: hi, I came here to write exactly this, so thanks for doing it already. A full year has passed though and nobody even took notice of it. A shame. Arminden (talk) 02:29, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The previous Mayor of Bethlehem (Anton Salman) is listed as Head of Municipality while the incumbent Mayor is now Hanna Hananah according to the city's official website (www.bethlehem-city.org/en/members-of-the-municipal-council). I would make this edit myself, but the protected status makes this impossible for me. Someone should get around to fixing this. 72.74.154.179 (talk) 00:01, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry to state the obvious, we don't have WP:ABRAHAMIC, we have WP:LEDE: which states that the lede is a summary of the body; the lede isn't a cherrypicked collection of information, especially not information that overblows importance of, quite possibly, mythical 2,000 year old events. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:58, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Do we have any sources with surveys that report on explicit reasons of the community's dwindling numbers? Makeandtoss (talk) 15:59, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding this revert, there were several issues I will enumerate here:

• Silent removal of status as Israeli-occupied
• as well as the city where he was anointed as the third monarch of the United Kingdom of Israel, and also states that it was built up as a fortified city by Rehoboam, the first monarch of the Kingdom of Judah overweight on religious dogma that isnt accepted as historical fact, and even if it were well past due weight for ancient history in the lead
• n the New Testament, the Gospel of Matthew and the Gospel of Luke identify the city (addition of the Gospels) unnecessary specificity in the lead, New Testament is fine by itself
• In 1967, the city was captured by Israel during the Third Arab–Israeli War from During the 1967 Six Day War, Bethlehem was occupied by Israel., yes it was captured, but that doesnt really say much about what happened since, which was it was occupied, which is considerably more relevant
• full in Palestinian control, while Area A does give the PA civil and security authority, the IDF still retains control over all of the West Bank and can and has entered Bethlehem at will, so saying it is under their full control is inaccurate to the point of being dishonest
• following persecution by PA officals and muslim officals forgetting the spelling and lowercase "muslim", that is not what sources say about the loss of Bethelehem's Christian population.A 2006 Zogby poll found that 78 percent of the city's Christians say they're leaving because of Israeli occupation while only 3.2 percent attributed it to the rise of Islamic movements. What was presented was a distorted view of why Bethlehem's Christians are leaving
• Hamas picture in local government section: Hamas is not the local government of Bethlehem, it makes no sense to include one rally for a group that is not in power as though it were representative.

nableezy - 16:16, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I made these edits and I have the same reasoning. The way they were indiscriminately reverted is not a good indication. Makeandtoss (talk) 16:34, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Seems the Zogby poll is the only one to have interviewed Bethlehem Christians specifically. Makeandtoss (talk) 16:49, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Dovidroth ignoring the talk page is not an accepted reason to edit war in disputed material that distorts the sources. Kindly stop. nableezy - 17:42, 17 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Adding comment from talk pg of Nableezy for clarity:

Hello Nableezy I saw you reverted me on Bethlehem, therefore removing very important information, some if it has been in the lead for years (for example, biblical mentions). In your Edit Summary you said: Rv unexplained removal of occupation and undue weight in lead for additions I added the removed sentences and image.

[1] This is the revert in question.

Please explain why you removed the following which I did not add: as well as the city where he was anointed as the third monarch of the United Kingdom of Israel, and also states that it was built up as a fortified city by Rehoboam, the first monarch of the Kingdom of Judah. In the New Testament, the Gospel of Matthew and the Gospel of Luke identify the city

I will note that the above is very due. Bethlehem is world renown for its biblical history and its place in the Abrahamic traditions. Can you please explain why you removed due information that is vital in understanding the role of Bethlehem in the Israelite history as well as for Christianity which has made the city important for billions of people over history. Also if not mistaken this is not a recent addition, certainly not by me and it is due.

. In 1967, the city was captured by Israel during the Third Arab–Israeli War. Since the Oslo Accords, which comprise a series of agreements

Here I agree that it merits discussion and is not strange however this is not a recent addition by me. Also there is merit to state that there are shared agreements between Israelis and Palestinians that dictate the state of Bethlehem.

following persecution by PA officals and muslim officals.as well as the city where he was anointed as the third monarch of the United Kingdom of Israel, and also states that it was built up as a fortified city by Rehoboam, the first monarch of the Kingdom of Judah

Please explain the removal of this info. Following your removal it appears Christians only suffer from Israeli settlements, whilst sources provided clearly state that Christians suffer from Muslim and PA persecution which is significant. It is important to maintain both parts in order to accurately reflect the reasoning of dwindling of the Christian population which was in the 1960s about 80%+ and now less then 12%. Bethlehem is the birthplace of Jesus Christ, a very important figure in Christianity and also for Muslims. Bethlehem's prominence arises from its role for Christians and therefore it is WP:DUE to explain the reasoning behind their dwindling. However, if you wish to remove the reasoning then remove the entire section for NPOV. I think it's due to keep, but it has to be comprehensive and reflect both.

When reverting Makeandtoss I should have restored partial self rv and put the Israeli occupation under international law section in modern history paragraph.

You also removed a sentence in the body which is backed by sources and is also not in lead unlike your edit summary it is not in the lead:

David is considered to have originated from Bethlehem.

Why is this controversial? It is well known and merits mention in the body?

You also removed the image to the right, which is not in the body and is an image of a Hamas rally in Bethlehem. Why is this problematic? Perhaps you'd wish to add a picture of a Fatah rally in Bethlehem as well if its problematic in your eyes to show only Hamas. But again it's not in your edit summary and I did not add this picture and from a short look in history it was in the body for several months (I did not look far back so maybe it was there for years).

Overall I saw you removed a lot of very due important information, also information which is not present in the lead was removed (David originating from Bethlehem and the image of the Hamas rally in Bethlehem). Can you please explain the removals? Homerethegreat (talk) 11:45, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Mistamystery it is unacceptable to edit war in contested changes, I laid out the issues with this edit above, you can’t just force them in. Please self revert and seek consensus for your change. Or I can revert you instead. nableezy - 12:39, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Whatever I just reverted it. Please follow WP:ONUS as I have very clearly laid out the objections to this edit above. nableezy - 12:41, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's long established content. Please see Wikipedia:Content removal. There is no consensus for removal, please explain yourself in respect to the arguments presented. Until then due to the particular importance of significant Christian and Biblical history removed which is part of the reason Bethlehem is known around the world and important for billions, I suggest you revert these removals.

Furthermore, you removed content which was backed by sources in the body. Why was King David being from Bethlehem removed? It was sourced. Please explain the removal. Homerethegreat (talk) 14:37, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That is absolutely not true, you added it between December 7 and 10th, and it was immediately challenged on December 11 and then edit-warred in by yourself, then Dovidroth, and Mistamystery all without even a token effort at discussing and seeking consensus. And I have listed the issues with the material above, something you have not engaged with at all. But please dont misrepresent this as long-standing content when it is provably not. nableezy - 14:41, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest you look at the version prior to my editing in 7 December [2] prior to saying "That is absolutely not true". Also please read my comments prior to answering like this. Homerethegreat (talk) 14:56, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Where does that include it has dwindled significantly following persecution by PA officals and muslim officals. misspellings and all. Where does that include who held priests and nuns hostages and plundered the church's coffers, it was subsequently sieged by Israeli forces until a deal was reached., which is the exact opposite of what reliable sources report on what happened (eg The Guardian). Where does that include Christians have reportedly suffered persecution under the Palestinian Authority, leading to emigration. which is directly refuted by sources saying that it is the Israeli occupation responsible for the emigration? Where does that include The seizure of Christian land by Muslim mafias and the bias of the Palestinian Judicial system have been cited as reasons leading to emigration. which again is directly refuted by sources on the reasons for emigration? And hello, the first comment in this section is me explaining all the changes. Something you have, once again, completely ignored. nableezy - 15:10, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Here is what I wrote:

It's long established content. Please see Wikipedia:Content removal. There is no consensus for removal, please explain yourself in respect to the arguments presented. Until then due to the particular importance of significant Christian and Biblical history removed which is part of the reason Bethlehem is known around the world and important for billions, I suggest you revert these removals.

I'll explain the meaning. It means I am suggesting you revert the removal of long established content from before 7 December. I also specifically explained what was the issue - Christian and Biblical history.

There is also an image of Hamas which was established prior and removed, however I think it is more urgent to restore Christian and Biblical history due to its weight.

Thank you for your time. Homerethegreat (talk) 15:25, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ive already said what is the issue with every part of the revert. Do you have any response to those issues at all? The Biblical history is given undue weight for mythology that is not supported by scholarship as fact. We dont base our articles on the Bible. nableezy - 15:28, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please note that these mytholodgies are important enough to be included in the lead since it is of interest to 2,000,000,000 people on Earth at least. It is the reason Bethlehem is so famous! Homerethegreat (talk) 13:59, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Due to the extent of content removed, I'll open discussions specifically on each topic. That way it will be easier to follow and take separate decisions. Homerethegreat (talk) 14:05, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I was asleep when you wrote this btw. Would have self-reverted. Mistamystery (talk) 15:38, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate that, thank you. nableezy - 15:40, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Unnecessary modifier "Israeli occupied". This is activism or narrative. Wikipedia rules are to be neutral. The geographic area of "West Bank, Palestine" is fine. You don't need to say "israeli occupied", as this part is no different than the rest. The whole West Bank can be argued as being occupied. Some people say Gaza was occupied, though israel says they left in 2005. Remove reference to Israeli occupied to adhere to Wiki rules Sfdoctorp (talk) 06:00, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The West Bank is occupied by Israel. That’s a fact. There’s no such thing as neutrality in facts. Makeandtoss (talk) 07:49, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The whole West Bank is occupied and the occupation is highly relevant to the city of Bethlehem. nableezy - 17:42, 17 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Should be moved to another part of the lead, specifically the modern era part. Homerethegreat (talk) 11:47, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Its in the area where it is talking about the location, which is where it is relevant. nableezy - 15:14, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

User Dovidroth in this edit has again removed and/or reintroduced content that was rejected in the two previous discussion sections at this talk page. Moreover, he also deleted the content that I had added in this edit without offering any justification for that removal. Potatín5 (talk) 12:22, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, above you can see a discussion on this. Primarily it seems regarding the removal of long established Christian and Biblical history. Also on removals of other more content, some more recent. Homerethegreat (talk) 15:05, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I’m not edit warring, thanks. I didn’t even see the discussion sections. This page is on my WL, I saw a batch revert to a bunch of unrelated items (including a number of *clearly* non-controversial edits) and requested the user make individual edits and outline specifically which items are controversial and relegated to talk.

Can you please then outline for me how *every single* edit that was reverted was controversial, please? Otherwise, restore the edit and and remove what you consider to actually be controversial. Mistamystery (talk) 15:21, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

They already have been outlined up above. If you dont even look at the talk page you cant tell people they should be on the talk page. nableezy - 15:23, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Correction - I looked at the ToC of the talk page and nothing seemed to indicate (nor still does) there was an outlined dispute regarding each of the edits made. Mistamystery (talk) 15:37, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Opening discussion regarding whether and where this should be included in lead. Homerethegreat (talk) 14:06, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Current paragraph:

While it was historically a city of Arab Christians, Bethlehem now has a majority of Arab Muslims; it is still home to a significant community of Palestinian Christians, however it has dwindled significantly, mostly due to difficulties resulting from living under the Israeli occupation. Presently, Bethlehem has become encircled by dozens of Israeli settlements, which significantly hinder the ability of Palestinians in the city to openly access their land and livelihoods, which has contributed to the exodus of Palestinians

Is rather heavily NPOV, doesn't reflect persecution and discrimination against Christians by the Palestinian Authority and Muslims. Homerethegreat (talk) 14:07, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also doesn't reflect following explaining Muslim majority, which happened also due to when the Palestinian Authority taking control in 1995, it reportedly expanded the boundaries of Bethlehem, allegedly to ensure a Muslim majority. This enlargement resulted in the inclusion of more than 30,000 Muslims from nearby refugee camps into the city. Yasser Arafat, at that time the head of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) also unilaterally replaced the predominantly Christian city council with a leadership that was predominantly Muslim. Homerethegreat (talk) 14:16, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Expanding the boundaries of a city is not persecution. VR _talk 01:37, 20 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also doesn't reflect hardships faced by Christians from PA officals in the judicary system, negative behaviour, attacks on churches and christians etc... Homerethegreat (talk) 14:19, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The sources show that the Christians of Bethlehem blame the Israeli occupation for their wanting to leave the city, you put in a highly distorted view of the causes of their emigration. See for example: Allen, John L. (2016). The Global War on Christians: Dispatches from the Front Lines of Anti-Christian Persecution. Crown Publishing Group. pp. 125–126. ISBN 978-0-7704-3737-4. Retrieved 2023-12-19. Yet most Arab Christians living in Israel do not describe their situation in glowing terms. Samer Makhlouf, a Catholic and executive director of One Voice, a grassroots movement in Palestine that brings together young Palestinians and Israelis to promote peace, says that of the four problems facing Christians in the Holy Land, the first three are "occupation, occupation, occupation." Makhlouf described Israeli military and security policy as "the father of all the problems in the region." That perception seems widespread. A 2006 poll by Zogby International found that in the city of Bethlehem, 78 percent of Christians said that Christians were leaving the city because of Israeli occupation, while only 3.2 percent attributed the Christian exodus to the rise of Islamic movements. what you put in the article was, again, a highly distorted portrayal of why the Christians of Bethlehem are leaving. When the overwhelming majority is leaving because of the Israeli occupation and you claim it is because of Muslim oppression you are distorting the record. nableezy - 14:50, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please see following sources: ^{[1][2][3][4][5][6][7]}

Clearly, Christians in Bethlehem suffer from both factors. It would be NPOV not to mention it. If the writing is problematic we can have the following: "Christians in Bethlehem suffer from persecution from Muslims and PA officials. Their share of the city has fallen since the Palestinian Authority enlarged the city to encompass surrounding Muslim villages. They have emigrated, citing mainly the Israeli occupation." Homerethegreat (talk) 10:06, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Opening discussion regarding whether and where this should be included in lead. Spefically following sentences:

 as well as the city where he was anointed as the third monarch of the United Kingdom of Israel, and also states that it was built up as a fortified city by Rehoboam, the first monarch of the Kingdom of Judah.

Regarding biblical and Israelite history of the city in relation to king David, Also the following:

 Gospel of Matthew and the Gospel of Luke identify the city

This is in reference, explaining that the gospels say Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem.

Furthermore, the removal of King David originating from Bethlehem in the body:

 David is considered to have originated from Bethlehem. 

Homerethegreat (talk) 14:09, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also following was removed:

At the northern entrance of the city is Rachel's Tomb, the burial place of biblical matriarch Rachel. Movement around the city is limited due to the Israeli West Bank barrier.

Homerethegreat (talk) 14:24, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

All of that is mythology, and this is an encyclopedia not a place where we regurgitate some book of myths. Imagine using claims from the Quran for Jerusalem. nableezy - 14:52, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You need only look at Mecca page and you have sentences such as these:

Mecca is revered in Islam as the birthplace of the Islamic prophet Muhammad. The Hira cave atop the Jabal al-Nur ("Mountain of Light"), just outside the city, is where Muslims believe the Quran was first revealed to Muhammad.

The Great Mosque of Mecca, known as the Masjid al-Haram, is home to the Ka'bah, believed by Muslims to have been built by Abraham and Ishmael. It is Islam's holiest site and the direction of prayer (qibla) for all Muslims worldwide.

---

But that is not the point. The point is Due weight information was removed from the page, also info that is attributed and sourced by secondary sources. You removed it because it is mythology in your opinion, but faith and beliefs can be given weight and attributed especially if it is the reason Bethlehem is so significant for the largest religion on Earth - 2 billion people.

Just add an attribute to the Rachel's Tomb bit for example and that solves the issue.

In another case you removed the attribution of Gospel of Matthew and the Gospel of Luke identify the city.

In another case you removed info with secondary sources regarding David's origin from Bethlehem, it was also written with the word "considered" (therefore not designating as fact).

And regarding the as well as the city where he was anointed as the third monarch of the United Kingdom of Israel, and also states that it was built up as a fortified city by Rehoboam, the first monarch of the Kingdom of Judah.

There is enough secondary sources that support Judah's rule over Bethlehem, and also simply attribute - according to the bible if this the big issue.

King David's origin and annotation in Bethlehem is also part of the importance of Bethlehem to Christians. Homerethegreat (talk) 10:00, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If there are reliable secondary sources for this, it can be added to Bethlehem#Other_religious_festivals (under the section on religious significance). We must mind due weight, though, as Bethlehem is mainly known for its religious significance in Christianity. VR _talk 01:40, 20 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed since Bethlehem is mainly know for its religious significance in Christianity, it is due for relevant info to be in the lead. Homerethegreat (talk) 10:01, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Opening discussion regarding whether and where this should be included in body. Homerethegreat (talk) 14:12, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This image: :

Homerethegreat (talk) 14:14, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The image reflects political activity in the city of Bethlehem and therefore I do not see why it is not due to be included. If NPOV is an issue one can add an image of Fatah rally no? Homerethegreat (talk) 14:28, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No it doesn’t not reflect political activity in Bethlehem, Hamas is not the local government in Bethlehem and it is unrepresentative to feature that image. nableezy - 14:42, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The page is understandably protected, so I can't add a link to Khamsin in the phrase "...annual waves of hot, dry, sandy and dust Khamaseen winds from the Arabian Desert..." Subvisser5 (talk) 14:29, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]