Talk:Van, Turkey: Difference between revisions

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Move: Van (turkey) → Van, Turkey

common use for cities

• Support Tobias Conradi 23:08, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Support Warofdreams 16:16, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This article has been renamed as the result of a move request. This was an old (2002) copy/paste move so the histories have been merged. violet/riga (t) 17:23, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I just googled this silliness -- and was amazed to find it (not that I believe). --Moby 11:04, 12 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The whole "Van, Turkey" entry is so full of silliness that I am surprised that you were surprised. Meowy 18:00, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

BTW - the statue may be as real as the actual monster. I've been to Van on many occasions and have never seen such a statue! There is a statue of the monster in Gevas though. Meowy 01:04, 26 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed that photograph from the entry. As I said, I've been to Van on dozens of occasions and have never seen such a statue there. The photo remains on the entry about the monster. Meowy 21:01, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I lıved ın Van for 2 and a half years and didn't see that statue. 99.236.250.221 (talk) 01:56, 23 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Awhile back a user added this to the Van (disambiguation) page, and I couldn't help but wonder, do all these cities (Van, Mersovan, and Yerevan—come from the same word? None of these articles except Merzifon discuss the etymology of the word at all, and it would be interesting to know if the words are related. —Khoikhoi 05:08, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The city's Armenian population was devastated (what is devastated, killed?) during World War I by Ottoman troops as a part of the Armenian Genocide <--- there are sources that says Van rebelled, and I provided them, and it was deleted, it even syas below Van reblled and the rmenians were taking sides with Russians). According to Turkish accounts (according to Turkish but not according to Armenian accounts?), with Russian forces (and Armenian volunteer untis, you forgot that) approaching Lake Van, the regional administrator ordered the execution of five Armenian leaders (of whom were rebel leaders, right?) and a revolt resulted in Van on April 20, 1915 against the Turks (and the Turks were killed were thjey not?) and in favor of the Russians (this sentence negates the above claim that says this was all becuase of AG and not any other reason). However, most historians agree (which historians, where, how many, what country) that the Armenians, hoping to avoid slaughter, fled to the mountains of Van to defend themselves against the Turks (if they fled then they obviously weren't killed, so how can they be devasted?)^[1]. The anti-Turkish and pro-Russian sentiments were in the hopes of being rescued from Turkish massacres (why were they so sure they were going to be massacred, becasue they rebelled?). The Russians finally captured Van in late May of 1915 (anfd killed al the Turks, right?)

So this whole thing is gone. See my version which is sourced and unbiased. --Oguz1 16:36, 3 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Armenian name and sourced info on Kurdish majority were deleted by an anon. I readded. Andranikpasha 16:42, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What, no famous turkish or kurdish people from Van? 87.113.119.89 (talk) 16:56, 14 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Kapamacian readded by an IP, is surely not a notable pertson. We even untill now have not any reliable sources on him. Andranikpasha (talk) 16:08, 15 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I reverted some propagandist material. Andranikpasha (talk) 16:41, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hudavendigar, you have been reverted at least twice. I think it is time for you to start discussing your changes. VartanM (talk) 18:52, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You can start participate in discussion, by going over the discussion I had put above. That is how it is discussed instead of crude reverts. Discuss, by all means. Above all, is it being DENIED (note the irony!) that Muslims of Van suffered terribly? Something about this key fact is bothering someone?--Murat (talk) 22:32, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please show some reliable and third party sources for "Muslims of Van suffered terribly".--HyeTashnak (talk) 13:13, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"It was necessary to despoil and destroy all Turkish quarters so they could not nurture any hopes of returning" Mukhtarian, An Account, p.117.

"The Armenians seem perfectly debauched-plundering and revenge the only thought of the day and we may as well talk to the wall.... I think too the thought of Armenians is to make this a purely Armenian province", The American missionaries Mrs. G.C.Reynolds and Clarence Ussher, Eastern Turkey Mission, Woman's Board, Vol.1, Documents and Reports. Keep in mind these were very pro-Armenian folks. "The men they put to death, women and children they spared" says Ussher in a rare moment of objectivity. They mean the women and children who were able to escape to the Missionary compounds.

The first large scale massacres of Muslim civilians took place when the Russians invaded the Dir-Baskale and Saray regions at the beginning of the war. See Kara Schemsi, Turcs et Armeniens, pp41-42; Rustem, LaGuerr Mondiale, pp.11-13,31,97-98; Ermeniler Belgeleri, pp7, 10-11. There are of course countless Turkish documents, internal communications to the Ministeries, police and civil servants reporting various Armenian attrocities, names and details, even in some cases the names of the Armenian murderers. Many of them were their neighbors. Check http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/kitap/.

What do you think happened to the Muslims of Van and environs when the insurgents took over? Denial is a terible thing, one should know one's history and learn from it.--Murat (talk) 02:20, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Denial is a terible thing, one should know one's history and learn from it -

Perhaps you should try acting on your own advice rather than hypocritically giving it out to others. Meowy 18:37, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Soo... what happened to the non-Armenians of Van during WWI? Denial and more denial...--Murat (talk) 22:53, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why was Ferit Melen removed from the famous people list? He was from Van.--Murat (talk) 22:53, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I do not get these so-called famous people whom we have never heard of and then they are labled as Armenian, or Russian, or American-Armenian, or French etc.. Where is Van? Where is Ottoman? This is an article about Van, no? If they were born in Van, or from Van, does not that make them Turkish-Armenian, or Ottoman-Armenian, or Ottoman at least? If not, why are they listed here? Unless this is fixed by someone who knows the difference, these bogus lists will be removed. There are plenty other places to spread propaganda.--Murat (talk) 12:24, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If they were born in Van, or spent much of their adult lives there, then they were from Van. Meowy 02:55, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Then they were Turkish-Armenian, Ottoman, Ottoman-Armenian, or Turkish. Yes, it would help if they were at all famous.--Murat (talk) 11:27, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And which are you saying aren't famous? Of course some names, such as Arshile Gorky and Mkrtich Khrimian, stand head and shoulders above all the others in terms of the extent of their fame. Meowy 15:46, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Some exist mostly in other wiki pov inserts only. I guess it is ok, an emotional issue I realize. More significantly, why deny or ignore the fact that the were born Ottoman citizens, in Ottoman Turkey or Turkey and carried Ottoman passaports when they moved to their next country? How come Vankulu Efendi is just that, and Ruhi Su is "Turkish", and another is Russian-Armenian, and another Armenian? How come none is Ottoman or Turkish-Armenian? What is the criteria? It looks like other motives are in play.--Murat (talk) 23:35, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This seems to be a guide: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Famous_Residents - however lots of Wikipedia articles seem to ignore it, so it would be difficult to use it alone as a basis to exclude a name. That said, I do agree that as a category within entries, the "Famous people" one is often overfilled. Meowy 16:55, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"resulting in an uprising in Van on April 20, 1915, against the Turks and in favor of the Russians. However, most historians agree that the Armenian residents, hoping to avoid the slaughter inflicted on the rural populations surrounding Van, defended themselves in the Armenian quarters of the city against the Turks[7]. The anti-Turkish and pro-Russian sentiments were in the hopes of being rescued from Turkish massacres. The Russians finally relieved the Armenian defenders of Van in late May 1915"

- Most Hisorians do NOT agree with the above. References added to the contrary, McCarthy and Feigl have been removed repeatedly. - Armenian rebellion(s) came first, then the Government attempt to quell by force. The article creates the opposite impression. - Throughout this article references are made to "self-defense" and such fake-named articles in an obvious attempt to hide the simple fact this was a very violent armed rebellion. - This was a rebellion as decribed above: "defended themselves in the Armenian quarters of the city against the Turks". Fighting against their very own state and army. - Violence against Armenians who did not share the bloody vision of the "Revolutionaries" were treated worse than the Turks. Any attmpt at presnting this fact has also been snuffed by POV editors. - Russians did not "relieve" Armenians, they invaded a Turkish city helped by the Armenian insurgents. - Even the "official" Armenian propaganda puts the start of the so-called genocide AFTER the rebellion at Van. Events here precipitated even harsher measures by the Government later. Any attempt to put this in perspective have been rudely removed. The article contradict this simpe fact by referring an Armenian Rebellion as Genocide. - There is NO mention of the majority Turkish population of the city AND the province. One would not know that this is an ancient Turkish city. Massacres of the Muslims in the area have been left out and any any reference to this fact has been removed repeatedly. - The whole article seems to be about Armenians and their sufferings. The fact that this is an old Turkish city and its non-Armenian culture, people and history has been systematically cleansed off the article. - This article, like many others, reperesents the worst of ethnic propaganda on Wikipedia. It is uninformative and apallingly biased.--Murat (talk) 18:12, 6 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am removing the POV tag. Hudavendigar has had almost 2 months to produce material to back up his allegations of bias, or to add aditional valid material into the article. He has not done any of that. I suggest that he has not because the material and the bias does not exist; a POV tag cannot remain in an article forever, and Hudavendigar's above comments are just POV warring, indicated by his use of phrases like "so-called genocide". Meowy 21:14, 2 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

McCarthy is not a reliable source. Lida Vorig (talk) 04:35, 8 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Who says? He is actually one of the few reliable sources and an expert on WWI history of Van. Of course you knew that and that is what the problem is.--Murat (talk) 05:07, 8 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I see that Hudavendigar, returning from a 6-month absense, has reinserted the pov tag. I have removed it for exactly the same reasons as I gave on my 2nd Feb 2009 post. Meowy 14:49, 8 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Your reasons make sense to you only. Until there is a concesus and the points I made above are satisfied, and there is no need for these discussions right here, the tag will remain there.--Murat (talk) 15:14, 8 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You can't just do drive-by POV tagging of an entire article! You have given no valid points to indicate why you think the entire article is POV, or even why parts of the article are POV. All I see is your 6Dec post is a POV diatribe that could have come from a card carrying MHP fanatic. Meowy 17:05, 8 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It seems that all you are intent on doing is inserting propaganda into Wikipedia articles. Your Turkish nationalist propaganda sources have no place in any encyclopedia. Meowy 17:12, 8 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Some specfics on Murat's propaganda. His lies include "First Western visitors to the area were witnesses to the total destruction of the Muslim sections of the city after the Armenian retreat, and as Niles and Sutherland of USA observed: "Villages said to have been Armenian were still standing whereas Musulman villages were completely destroyed". The web page cited for this "Niles and Sutherland report" does not exist. Either it has disapeared in the couple of hours between Murat posting it and me checking it (unlikely), or (more likely) it did not exist when he inserted it and he actually lifted that content straight from a Turkish propaganda website. Content from this "report" (which is actually a tawdry pack of lies) has come up before on the Bitlis article, when Murat tried to use it to insert inaccurate content into the article. At the time I wrote "regarding Bitlis, the claim that every Muslim house was destroyed is so moronic that that statement alone should damn the entire report. Bitlis is full of old Muslim buildings to this day, and has thousands of intact pre-WW1 Muslim houses (I guess that might be why you wanted the section on the architecture curtailed - it disagrees with the lies in that report)". Murat has shown some audacity by citing a propaganda website produced by the Turkish government to deny the Armenian Genocide for his claim that "this was the most organized one of a series of Armenian revolts in the area, wich also took place while the Ottomans had engaged Great Powers at multiple fronts, it was a key factor in the government's decision to forcibly remove the Armenian population from Eastern Anatolia"! Actually the "deportations" (i.e. masssacres) had started a week earlier and it was those massacres which had prompted the Armenian population of Van to rise up in self-defense. Murat's obscene misuse of the word "revolt" to characterise that self-defense is just another indication of this editor's aim of writing propaganda and of duplicating material found on the most rabid Armenian Genocide denialist websites. And as for his final claim "Modern Van had to be rebuilt from start some distance away from the scene of this destruction". This is his own OR, and shows his complete ignorance of the subject. Modern Van was refounded as a city in the 1930s and was actually laid out on the district of old Van called the "Garden City" (called that because many of the houses there had tree-lined back gardens). The main streets of that district's urban centre actually correspond to the main roads that still exist in the town centre of modern Van. Meowy 01:57, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"your 6Dec post is a POV diatribe that could have come from a card carrying MHP fanatic"..."Your Turkish nationalist propaganda sources"... "straight from a Turkish propaganda website"..."Murat's obscene misuse of the word "revolt""...

Only one person sounds like a fanatic here, Van, not Bitlis. You need to stop foaming at the mouth and limit the discussion to facts here. Removing all that you do not imporve is not a way to defend facts, one does that only to protect propaganda. The very fact that we are having this so-called discussion here is the reason the tag is there in the first place. --Murat (talk) 05:12, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

maybe you dont know but, there is another city called TATVAN that located opposite side of lake van. does anyone know "TAT" means opposite or against in any language? maybe urartu language?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.42.237.249 (talk) 21:10, 25 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The older name of Tatvan is Tadvan. So if its name means anything, it would the word "tad" we should be asking about. Meowy 02:38, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I added some notes about the recent population. No one believes the official statistic in this case, as per the sources mentioned, but this could partially be because of seasonal migration as well. Additionally I added a part about demographics in the Ottoman Empire and moved some stuff from the "genocide" section into there, to contextualize the issues when dealing with population statistics in that area and provide a NPOV which lets the reader decide for him/herself. Grant bud (talk) 03:21, 23 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In Van I met a man who took part in the census gathering, and he told be that he thought the population was at least 700,000. He said that the local population was very reluctant to reveal actual family sizes, a lot of the data written down by the census gatherers was just guesswork, and that many men in Van had several wives and those unofficial wives and their children were not recorded on the census. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.97.143.19 (talk) 20:34, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"According to Taner Akçam(!), citing Osmali Belgelerinde Ermeniler 1915-1920, after the Turks took back the city from the Russians they killed all Armenians in the city..." I suppose no need to question the credentials of this esteemed researcher who is known for his "objective" analysis of the topic! Analysis is all he can do since he does not access a lot of original material. In any case, what is strange about this statement is that there is no real reference, I mean what did the Ottoman documents say, that "they killed them all"? Even more strange is the fact that missionaries and diplomats who visited the area a short time later found a small population of Armenians in the cneter of the city, under the protection of the soldiers since the remaining and returning Muslim inhabitants were anxious for revenge.Murat (talk) 03:16, 26 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's claimed to be Odessa on this page, but on Odessa's page, there is no reference to this at all. In fact, Odessa is said to be twinned with Istanbul. 86.9.227.102 (talk) 00:04, 26 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Was the "A park in the city center." picture that has statues and a fountain created by Armenians, Kurds or turks? --TheShadowCrow (talk) 16:22, 22 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

By Ottomans.

Hi all,

First, Taner Akcam - according to his own article - is a historian and sociologist, not a writer and genocide researcher.

Second, the subtitle is about WWI and not the so-called genocide. If there is info about a genoicde that needs to be added then fine. Remember WWI was not about massacres but a war with multidimensional aspects. Let us treat it that way.

Third, it seems like there is a group of editors who have an agenda and they keep pushing it. It is clear as day. They keep making the same type of topic additions and reverting whatever does not fit their POV. They need to be addressed.

Shubuhat (talk) 20:26, 8 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Shubuhat, I recommend you to not removes content about the Armenian Genocide. This really not seen good at wikipedia, and most of the editors who do this usually get blocked quite quickly. You already mentioned a "so-called" genocide, which is a tough stance. There are several articles on Wikipedia about the Armenian Genocide and many are sourced also with Taner Akcam. I'll let the historian and sociologist part but the rest goes back in. The main part of the Armenian Genocide happened during the WWI, and it was a major event in Anatolia during the WW I, special in VanParadise Chronicle (talk) 10:52, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Not addressing all the points at hand, nor those of Murat above. Ömer Nasuhi Bilmen (talk) 09:48, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. The main event is the WWI and if need be Armenian Rebellion added to the section header. Tehcir policy was not something specific to Van ata ll. I will make adjustments, so let me know if anyone has any valid comments. Also Taner's claim "all died" is clearly contradicts facts. No evidence. As late as 1919 groups of Armenians were living in Van. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.247.165.26 (talk) 16:22, 15 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

63.247.165.26, you need to register an account. There is consistent socket puppetry and some biased users put an edit stop. They cannot stand to hear about the atrocities Armenian gangs committed and want to keep writing history according to their own POV with their so-called genocide. Let's try and keep this place balanced: hearing from more than one side. Ömer Nasuhi Bilmen (talk) 12:09, 18 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

hypocrite sock Shadow4dark (talk) 12:34, 18 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I was hoping to see more constructive contributions here. It seems legitimate issues raised above. 1) the title of the section clearly should refer to WWI, and specifically parts related to history of Van, not larger events of WWI 2) the reference by Akcam to "all killed" is clearly wrong and not correct for a whole number of reasons. Should be questioned. I expect meaningful inputs. Thanks.Murat (talk) 23:14, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed Murat. “All” is definitely an exaggeration. Besides, history cannot and is not based on the views of one or two writers. How come nobody is replying or updating the article? 786wave (talk) 08:43, 19 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Is this a armenian Wikipedia or free NPOV Wikipedia?? All pages is against muslims and Turks! Peacetowikied (talk) 12:54, 30 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No it isn't a Armenian Wikipedia but it is certainly also not a place for Turkish (governmental) propaganda. Veysel Eroglu is a current Turkish Minister and the Turkish government denies the Armenian Genocide. If you want to include a Turkish/Kurdish Genocide perpetrated by Armenians I suggest you get a better source.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 08:45, 3 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

An official account is always a more reliable source than POV-pushing Armenian diaspora and lobbies in the US and Europe. Take your bias somewhere else please. By the way, something can’t be denied if it never occurred... Dominator1071 (talk) 09:28, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

WP does not blindly follow "official" sources. We use the best available scholarship, to a large extent sources independent of the parties to the dispute . --Macrakis (talk) 13:27, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, only when it fits the agenda and world view of most assertive users on WP. In other words, neutrality is a farce here. Good thing WP is not the final say in any real life matters. Dominator1071 (talk) 03:42, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Why is the Armenian name of the town included? These have been Turkish and Kurdish lands for a thousand years. Articles on Greek islands that were Turkish territory a hundred years ago are not allowing Turkish names to be included! Double standards seem to be at play. Someone explain it logically please. Dominator1071 (talk) 23:19, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I am not editing at the Greek Islands, but Van has a much longer Armenian History than a Turkish history and were the victims of the Armenian Genocide. Also Turks are mainly in Van in the Military bases, or in the by Police Guarded Municipality buildings. It s a factual occupation. So much for a Turkish history of Van. The Kurds, who are now the majority of Van would agree to offer Municipality services in Armenian language and wouldn't oppose the Armenian heritage of Van. They even tried it once but they were prosecuted and imprisoned for it by the Turks.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 05:14, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

So much for your Barnstar of Diplomacy! Dominator1071 (talk) 09:29, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If you could point out Greek places where the Ottoman place name is "not allowed to be included", please let me know. As a general rule, the Ottoman names should be given for former parts of the Ottoman Empire, as for example in Chania, Crete, Lesbos, Giannitsa, etc.

Similarly, areas which have had important Armenian populations in the past should include the Armenian name, and the Van area certainly has had an important Armenians population for centuries, as witness the Cathedral of the Holy Cross, Aghtamar and the Demographics section of this article, which shows that Van was almost half Armenian at the beginning of the 20th century according to the Ottoman census. --Macrakis (talk) 12:54, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don’t see the Turkish or Ottoman names in Lesbos or Giannitsa. Please feel free to add them. Dominator1071 (talk) 03:37, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Look a little closer: Lesbos/Midilli, Giannitsa = يڭيجۀ واردار (both of these have been in their articles for over 10 years).

Historical and alternate names aren't necessarily in the lead (see WP:MODERNPLACENAME). --Macrakis (talk) 17:49, 23 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

They aren't necessarily in the lead *when they belong to Greece or Armenia! For example, Lesbos (Midilli), Kastellorizo (Kızılhisar), Samos (Sisam), Symi(Sömbeki), Alexandroupoli (Dedeağaç) now located in Greece; Gyumri (Gümrü), Shirak (Şirak) in armenia and none of them are mentioned with their historical Turkish names in the lead. However, Istanbul, Giresun, Antalya, Edirne, Mersin, Van, Kars are located in Turkey and ALL of them are mentioned with their greek and/or armenian names IN THE LEAD. Moreover, *this is the funniest part* Gökçeada and Bozcaada are located in Turkey, but represented in their anciend Greek names but not with their modern Turkish names in English wikipedia. Give me one example where a place in Greece is mentioned with its Turkish name in the lead or a Turkish name not mentioned with its Greek name in the lead but at the etymology only. Conclusion: Hypocrisy at it's finest.Unreadedcontent (talk) 15:56, 13 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is a (in my opinion rather unfortunate) quirk of Wikipedia:NCGN. The policy on alternate names in the lead states "Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or that is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted." The issue here is, many cities in Turkey had non-Turkish majorities in the past, whether in Ottoman times or beforehand (which makes it compliant with Wikipedia:NCGN), yet Greek cities never had such majorities, even under Ottoman rule. Truth is, I'm not a fan of this policy at all, but it is what it is: not hypocrisy, but rather the proper implementation of a Wikipedia policy. Uness232 (talk) 11:05, 19 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Also quick side note, on Gökçeada and Bozcaada, Wikipedia:COMMONNAME applies. These are places where the Turkish government has seen it appropriate to forcefully change names, unlike, say, Istanbul or Izmir, which have changed at least semi-naturally, so their common names in English are often also their old name. Note that this is not always true, as the WP article for Tunceli is not Dersim, as a part of Wikipedia:COMMONNAME. Uness232 (talk) 11:10, 19 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

109.199.229.118 (talk) 11:53, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

| pushpin_map = Turkey #Europe #Asia #Earth |pushpin_relief = 1

 Not done: It's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. MediaKill13 (talk) 13:03, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This article, just like many other Eastern Anatolian related articles like Erzurum, is heavily biased towards pro-Armenian views. Just because history and facts state that the Armenian massacres occurred because of their rebellion does not make one a so-called genocide denier. I for one don’t believe in the exaggerated claims. Back to the point, this article carries heavy POV by radical Armenian editors. It needs a review and update by non-biased neutral editors. 786wave (talk) 08:28, 19 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

heavily biased towards pro-Armenian views as opposed to whitewashed to appease both sides. The academic consensus is that this "view" is what happened, a part of the Armenian Genocide . I for one don’t believe in the exaggerated claims. Facebook would be a better place for such expressions, Here citations and references matter most. And last of all, Just because history and facts state that the Armenian massacres occurred because of their rebellion does not make one a so-called genocide denier. Murdering and deporting entire civilian populations because of rebellions is still Genocide. if there are sharks in the water, do you kill the sharks, or dry the entire sea? And no, justifying Genocide is another form of Genocide denial. By comparison, try saying "the jews had it coming by 1940" while referring to the holocaust and see what happens. - Kevo³²⁷ (talk) 10:34, 19 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for proving my point. I have no intention of edit warring. Whatever floats your boat in the virtual world of Wikipedia. 786wave (talk) 14:41, 19 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Battle of Malazgirt opened the region for Turkish migrations, and the region has been inhabited by Turks and Kurds since then. Please read the article and don’t deny it. :) 786wave (talk) 17:41, 19 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

786wave. and the other ethnicities like Armenians conveniently disappeared to confort your beliefs? Right? - Kevo³²⁷ (talk) 18:49, 19 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

They were exiled to Lebanon. Plenty of radical Armenians exist there. 786wave (talk) 19:15, 19 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It’s amazing how Turkophbic some people can get. I’m in Van at the moment. None of the other contributors are. Attempts at erasing the 1000-year-old Turkish history of the city are futile. It is the land of Turkey after all. However, the introductory paragraph does not reflect the general tone of the article. It implies that the city only has Armenian history. That’s definitely contrary to history books. 786wave (talk) 09:51, 22 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Turkophobic 786wave (talk) 09:58, 22 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

At no point does the article deny the Ottoman and recent Turkish history of Van. You are the one in denial that Armenians lived on your city until they we're ethnically cleansed in 1915. The rest of your arguments are irrelevant to the content. And you removing links to the Armenian Genocide is making it hard to assume that you're editing with good faith. - Kevo³²⁷ (talk) 09:59, 22 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Might want to stop trying to censor others. 786wave (talk) 15:25, 22 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Might want to convince others that you are editing in good faith first. You argued that at least the majority of the Armenian population was exiled to Lebanon after Manzikert/Malazgirt. This would contradict not only the typical way Christians are treated in Islamic empires in the Middle Ages, but later records of Armenians existing in the region. On top of that, the books you cited did not state what you wrote there.

I'm pretty confident that you're some kind of Turkic or Turkish nationalist, and because of that I want to point out to you that one of the biggest sources of pride for many Turkish nationalists, is that the states they built were largely tolerant of other ethnicity and religions, and to a large extent, they are right, up until the 19th century at least, as many Turkic states were based off ethnic and religious co-existence and sometimes even co-operation before the arrival of Western ideas of nationalism. But if Turkish nationalists are going to insist on the tolerance of their polities, maybe they should not cleanse any proof of said tolerant leadership. I suggest you do the same. Uness232 (talk) 16:05, 22 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Just because I’m interested in adding missing info about Turks and Turkish rule over Van does not make me a nationalist. You can assume whatever you like. Please feel free to help add some Turkish history and influence too then. It’s definitely lacking in the article. 786wave (talk) 14:06, 7 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and stop putting words in my mouth. Don’t apply false logic and assume good faith. Pretty basic things. 786wave (talk) 14:09, 7 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I'm not accusing you of WP:NOTHERE because of your edits, me saying that was actually not an accusation at all. What I was trying to say is that by implying that there was deportation and erasure of Armenian presence when Turks settled in Van, as you claimed in "They were exiled to Lebanon. Plenty of radical Armenians exist there.", you are the one that's erasing eight hundred years of co-existence and relative tolerance, which reinforces anti-Turkic notions. My assumption that you were a nationalist purely came from your genocide denialism, and I thought that someone of that worldview might act with prudence when writing stuff that unintentionally reinforces racist beliefs against Turks. Uness232 (talk) 14:23, 7 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Also, "Please feel free to help add some Turkish history and influence too then." I do not see how Turkish influence in the article is missing, and even if I did see it, I am not obligated to add anything to an article to remove questionable wording or info. Uness232 (talk) 16:18, 8 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There is a paragraph that is meant to cover the WWI history of Van but currently it only covers one single historical topic, controversial AG, which already has countless articles dedicated to it. In essence, the paragraph does not cover the WWI history of Van, which was rather eventful. It does not even cover a period, but seems to be pushing a particular topic at the expense of Van or history of it. I am editing the heading accordingly and will build it up more and invite other editors also to do so. Bring your opinions here please. Murat (talk) 19:08, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The section does discuss WWI history. There's room for expansion, but there's no reason for such expansion to come at the expense of the genocide-related content, which is already pretty succinct. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:13, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Who are some notable people from Van? 2A01:C23:8C60:F000:A932:C8AE:4E72:25B0 (talk) 22:29, 20 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Flag of Van.gif

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 20:40, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Van has 2 co-mayors. The other one is Neslihan Şedal/ The source is the same as for Zeydan. --95.24.63.92 (talk) 23:57, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Van
City
Clockwise from top: Van Fortress; Cathedral of the Holy Cross, Aghtamar; Tushba; Muradiye Waterfalls; İskele Street; Van Lake; and Hoşap Castle
Emblem of Van Municipality
Van
Coordinates: 38°29′39″N 43°22′48″E / 38.49417°N 43.38000°E / 38.49417; 43.38000
Country	Turkey
Region	Eastern Anatolia
Province	Van
Government
• Mayor	Ozan Balcı[1]
Elevation	1,726 m (5,663 ft)
Population  (end 2022)[2]
• City	525,016

Van (Armenian: Վան; Kurdish: Wan^[3]) is a city in eastern Turkey's Van Province, on the eastern shore of Lake Van. It is the capital and largest city of Van Province.

Van has a long history as a major urban area. It has been a large city since the first millennium BCE, initially as Tushpa, the capital of the kingdom of Urartu from the 9th century BCE to the 6th century BCE, and later as the center of the Armenian kingdom of Vaspurakan. Turkic presence in Van and in the rest of Anatolia started as a result of Seljuk victory at the Battle of Malazgirt (1071) against the Byzantine Empire.^[4][5][6]

Van was densely populated by Armenians until the Armenian genocide in the 1910s. Today, it is mostly inhabited by Kurds.^[7][8]

Archaeological excavations and surveys carried out in Van Province indicate that the history of human settlement in this region goes back at least as far as 5000 BCE. The Tilkitepe Mound, which is on the shores of Lake Van and a few kilometres to the south of Van Castle, is the only source of information about the oldest culture of Van.

Under the ancient name of Tushpa, Van was the capital of the Urartian kingdom in the 9th century BCE. The early settlement was centered on the steep-sided bluff now known as Van Castle (Van Kalesi), close to the edge of Lake Van and a few kilometers west of the modern city. Urartian cuneiform inscriptions dating to the 8th and 7th centuries BCE have been found here. The name 'Van' comes from the Urartian endonym Biaina.^[9]

The region came under the control of the Orontids in the 7th century BCE and quickly later the Persians in the mid 6th century BCE. Van Fortress, located outside Van city center, holds an inscribed stereotyped trilingual inscription of Xerxes the Great from the 5th century BCE upon a smoothed section of the rock face, some 20 metres (66 feet) above the ground near the fortress. The inscription survives in near perfect condition and is divided into three columns of 27 lines written in (from left to right) Old Persian, Babylonian, and Elamite. In 331 BCE, Van was conquered by Alexander the Great and after his death became part of the Seleucid Empire. By the early 2nd century BCE it was part of the Kingdom of Armenia. It became an important center during the reign of the Armenian king, Tigranes II, who founded the city of Tigranakert in the 1st century BCE.^[10] In the early centuries BCE, it fell to the emerging Arsacid dynasty of Parthia until the 3rd century CE. However, it also fell once to the Arsacid dynasty of Armenia in this timespan. In the History of Armenia attributed to Movses Khorenatsi, the city is called Tosp, from Urartian Tushpa.^[11]

Following the fall of the Parthians and the emergence of the Neo-Persian Empire, better known as the Sassanian Empire,^[12] the town fell into the possession of the latter. During the over 700 years-long Roman-Persian Wars, some of the wars were waged at and around the location of modern-day Van. The Byzantine Empire briefly held the region from 628 to 640, following the victory in the climactic Byzantine–Sasanian War of 602–628, after which it was invaded by the Muslim Arabs, who consolidated their conquests as the province of Arminiya.^[13] Decline in Arab power eventually allowed local Armenian rulers to re-emerge, with the Artsruni dynasty soon becoming the most powerful.^[14] Initially dependent on the rulers of the Kingdom of Ani, they declared their independence in 908, founding the Armenian Kingdom of Vaspurakan.^[15] The kingdom had no specific capital: the court would move as the king transferred his residence from place to place, such as Van city, Vostan, Aghtamar, etc.^[15] In 1021 the last king of Vaspurakan, John-Senekerim Artsruni, ceded his entire kingdom to the Byzantine empire, who established the Vaspurakan theme on the former Artsruni territories. Van was called Eua or Eva (Ancient Greek: Εύα) during Byzantine rule.^[16]

Incursions by the Seljuk Turks into Vaspurakan started in the 1050s. After their victory in 1071 at the battle of Manzikert the entire region fell under their control.^[17] After them, local Muslim rulers emerged, such as the Ahlatshahs and the Kurdish Ayyubids (1207). For a 20-year period, Van was held by the Anatolian Seljuk Sultanate until the 1240s when it was conquered by the Mongols. In the 14th century, Van was held by the Timurids, followed subsequently by the Turkoman Kara Koyunlu and Ak Koyunlu confederations.

The first half of the 15th century saw the Van region become a land of conflict as it was disputed by the Ottoman Empire and the neighboring Persian Safavid Empire. The Safavids captured Van in 1502, as it went naturally with all former territories of the Ak Koyunlu. The Ottomans took the city in 1515 following the climactic Battle of Chaldiran and held it for a short period. The Safavids retook it again in 1520 but the Ottomans gained an almost definite hold of it in 1548 during another Ottoman-Safavid War. Ottoman control over the town was confirmed in the 1555 Peace of Amasya which came as a result after the end of the war. They first made Van into a sanjak dependent on the Erzurum eyalet, and later into a separate Van eyalet in about 1570. In 1604, the Safavids under king Abbas the Great recaptured Van alongside other swaths of lost territories in Eastern Anatolia. However, Ottoman control over it was at last now made final and definite in 1639 with the Treaty of Zuhab.

During the early 1900s, the city of Van had eleven Armenian schools and ten Turkish schools.^[18] Towards the second half of the 19th century Van began to play an increased role in the politics of the Ottoman Empire due to its location near the borders of the Persian, Russian and Ottoman Empire, as well as its proximity to Mosul. During the period leading up to the breakup of the Ottoman Empire, Armenians were well represented in the local administration.^[19]

The demographics of Ottoman Van are a debated and contentious point as they relate directly to claims of ownership by either side prior to the outbreak of World War I. For the city of Van itself it has been estimated that it had around 50,000 inhabitants prior to World War I, of whom 30,000 were Armenian and 20,000 were Muslims. Based on the official 1914 Ottoman census, the population of Van province consisted of 179,422 Muslims and 67,797 Armenians.^[20] The Ottoman census figures include only male citizens, excluding women and children, and according to more recent research, an estimate for Van province (including women and children) is that it had 313,000 Muslims, 130,000 Armenians, and 65,000 others, including Assyrians.^[21]

The demographics of Van are a greatly debated point also given the changing provincial borders. For example, in 1875 the province was divided; Van and Hakkari were separated, only to be rejoined in 1888, drastically changing the census numbers. Some writers argue that this merging was done to keep the Armenians from forming a majority.^[22] In 1862 it was estimated that in Van there were 90,100 Christians (including Syriac Christians) and 95,100 Muslims.^[23] The French Consul in Van reported that in Van and Bitlis 51.46% were Kurds, 32.70% were Armenians and 5.53% were Turks.^[24] On the other hand, the Armenian Patriarchate of Constantinople estimated 185,000 Armenians in Van, 18,000 Assyrians, 72,000 Kurds, 47,000 Turks, 25,000 Yezidis, 5,000 Zazas and 3,000 Gypsies.^[25] Both sides have been accused of over-counting the numbers at the time given the Armenian genocide and population statistics became important during the Berlin Conference.^[26]

During this war the Kurdish Sheikh Jelaludin led thousands of soldiers to massacre Armenians of the province and destroyed and plundered many of their villages.^[27] These events are described in Armenia and the Campaign of 1877 by British war correspondent Charles B. Norman and in the fictional novella Jalaleddin by the Armenian novelist Raffi in very similar terms.^[28]

The Armenian genocide in Van Province started in late 1914 with attacks by the Ottoman Empire's Special Organization and affiliated paramilitaries.^[29] The regional Albanian administrator, Djevdet Bey, was reported to have said that "We have cleansed the Armenians and Syriac Christians from Azarbaijan, and we will do the same in Van".^[30] Numerous reports from Ottoman officials, such as a parliament deputy, the governor of Aleppo as well as the German consul in Van, suggested that deliberate provocations against the Armenians were being orchestrated by the local government.^[30] In mid-April 1915, Cevdet Bey ordered the execution of four Armenian leaders,^[31][32] and he demanded that all Armenian males of military age gather before him, which drove the Armenians to take up arms in self-defense.^[33] On the other hand, historian and sociologist Taner Akçam acknowledges that in the case of Van, the deportations may have been driven by military necessity^[34] and states the resistance in Van should be examined as a separate case.^[35]

In April 1915, as slaughter was being inflicted upon the rural populations surrounding Van, the Armenian residents of the city launched a rebellion hoping to avoid the same fate, defending themselves in the Armenian quarters of the city against the Turks.^[36] The Russians finally relieved the Armenian defenders of Van in late May 1915 and local Armenians gave the keys of the city to Russian general Nikolai Yudenich on May 21. In August, a victory over the Russian army allowed the Ottoman army to retake Van. In September 1915, the Russians forced the Turks out of Van for the second time. Russian forces began to leave the area after the October Revolution in Russia in 1917, and by April 1918, it was recaptured by the Ottoman army again. According to Taner Akçam, citing the Osmanli Belgelerinde Ermeniler 1915–1920 (Armenians in Ottoman Documents, 1915–1920), after the Turks took back the city from the Russians, they killed the Armenian population in the city.^[37] Clarence Ussher, an American physician and missionary in Van, and an eye-witness to the events, reported that 55,000 Armenians had been killed.^[38][39] The end of World War I forced the Ottoman army to surrender its claim to Van.

In the Treaty of Sèvres, the Entente Powers decided to cede the city to the First Republic of Armenia. Turkish revolutionaries, led by Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, rejected the terms of the treaty and instead waged the Turkish War of Independence. However, the idea of ceding Van to the Armenians was floated, and İsmet İnönü was said to have surveyed army officers on 14 October 1919 on the issue of ceding Van and Bitlis. However, the parliament in Ankara rejected any compromise on this issue.^{[40][page needed]} By 1920, Van fell under Turkish control again and its remaining Armenian inhabitants were expelled in a final round of ethnic cleansing.^[36] With the Treaty of Lausanne and Treaty of Kars, the Treaty of Sèvres was annulled and Van remained de facto under Turkish sovereignty.

By the end of the conflicts, the town of Van was empty and in ruins. The city was rebuilt after the war a few kilometers east of the ancient citadel, which is now known as Van Castle (Van Kalesi). The city now lies at about 1,750 metres (5,741 feet) above sea level.

The main places with tourism potential in Van are Hoşap Castle, Muradiye Fall, Akdamar Island, Van Castle, Lake Turna, Lake Akgöl and Van Museum.

In the 2019 municipal elections, Bedia Özgökçe Ertan of the HDP party was elected mayor of Van. In August 2019 she was dismissed and subsequently sentenced to 30 years imprisonment accused of supporting terrorism as part of a government crackdown against politicians of the Kurdish HDP party; the Turkish state appointed an unelected state-trustee, Mehmet Emin Bilmez, in her place. Many other Kurdish mayors in other Kurdish cities across the region also suffered a similar fate.^[41][42] Protests against the decision arose which were suppressed by the Turkish police with the use of water cannons; some protestors were killed.^[43][44][45]

At the end of 2022 the population figure for the city of Van was 525,016,^[2] but former Mayor Burhan Yengun is quoted as saying it may be as high as 600,000.^[46] The former Van Central (Merkez) District stretched over 1,938.14 km², but has subsequently been split into two new districts (İpekyolu and Tuşba).^[47] Today, Van has a Kurdish majority and Turkish minority.^[48]

The city of Van is located at the western foot of Mount Erek.

Van has a Mediterranean-influenced humid continental climate (Köppen: Dsa, Trewartha: Dc) with cold, snowy winters and very warm, dry summers. Precipitation can be observed for the majority of the year, with a slight peak during spring and autumn, and a brief dry summer from July to September.

The modern city is located on the plain extending from the Lake Van, at a distance of 5 kilometres (3 miles) from the lake shore. Reports have appeared over the years of a certain Lake Van Monster said to live in the lake. Lake Erçek is the second largest lake in the region and lies just east of Lake Van.

Van has often been called "The Pearl of the East" because of the beauty of its surrounding landscape. An old Armenian proverb in the same sense is "Van in this world, paradise in the next".^[51] This phrase has been slightly modified in Turkish as Dünyada Van, ahirette iman or "Van for this world, faith for the next".

The city is home to Van Yüzüncü Yıl Üniversitesi (Van 100th Year University) and recently came to the headlines for two highly publicized investigations initiated by the Prosecutor of Van, one of which was focused on accusations against the university's rector, Hasan Ceylan, who was kept in custody for a time. He was finally acquitted but lost his rectorate. He is a grandson of Agop Vartovyan, an Ottoman Armenian who is accepted as the founder of modern Turkish theatre. Hasan Ceylan is also the department chairman of Environmental Engineering at Van Yüzüncü Yıl University.

In 1941, Van suffered a destructive 5.9 M_w earthquake.^[52] A more severe 7.2 M_w earthquake occurred on 23 October 2011.^[53] On the 9 November 2011, another earthquake caused several buildings to collapse.^[54]

In culinary terms, as some cities in Turkey became renowned for their kebab culture or other types of traditional local dishes, Van has distinguished itself with its breakfast culture.^[55]

Van stands on Highway D300, which runs from the Iranian border 100 km east at Kapikoy through Van then along the south lake shore to Tatvan (100 km), and westwards to the rest of Turkey. Highway D975 runs north to Dogubeyazit and south towards Hakkari. Frequent buses and dolmuses ply these highways.

Van is the western terminus of the railway line from Iran, with freight and passenger trains (suspended between 2015 and 2018). There is a train ferry (upgraded in 2015) across the lake to Tatvan. There is no railway around the lake; it is intended eventually to build one but to date there are no plans.^{[citation needed]} This would actually create an unbroken rail link between Europe and the Indian subcontinent, as Tatvan is the terminus of the line to Ankara and Istanbul.

Van has daily flights to Istanbul, Ankara and other major Turkish cities from Ferit Melen Airport.

Near Van, there is a longwave broadcasting station with a 250-metre-tall (820-foot) guyed mast. It went in service in 1990 and operates on 225 kHz with 600 kW. It has also local news outlets like Van Gazetesi or Gazete Van.^[56][57]

The Van cat is a breed of cat native to this town and named after it. It is noted for its white fur, and for having differently colored eyes.^[58]

Van is twinned with:

• Bursa, Turkey^[59]
• Odesa, Ukraine
• Karlsruhe, Germany

• 
  Former Town of Van in 2009
• 
  Former Town of Van in 2009
• 
  Former Town of Van in 2009
• 
  View of Van from the Van Castle

• Defense of Van (1915)
• Tuşpa
• İpekyolu
• Van Museum

• Hovannisian, Richard G., ed. (2000), Armenian Van/Vaspurakan, Historic Armenian Cities and Provinces, Costa Mesa, California: Mazda Publishers, OCLC 44774992

Wikimedia Commons has media related to Van (city).

Wikivoyage has a travel guide for Van.

• Governorship of Van
• Municipality of Van
• Van 100th Year University
• Movie showing a reconstruction of Eski Van