Talk:Kyoto Protocol: Difference between revisions

Talk:Kyoto Protocol/archive 1 - Oct 2004 - Mar 2005

I'm sure we wouldn't want to aggravate WMC's visions of black helicopters so I think the logo of the organization that sponsored the Kyoto Protocol is more appropriate than a generic UN logo or a generic photograph of the planet Earth. I mean, what Kyoto has to do with Apollo 17 is unclear - at least to me.--JonGwynne 20:35, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with the Apollo 17 but it has everything to do with the planet. The UN logo should be on there but it is a bit boring, so I'm for both.Dejvid 11:36, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

That's an example of framing - the implication is that support for Kyoto is equivalent to support for the planet. It isn't appropriate for an encyclopedia.--JonGwynne 18:35, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

That's like saying that an article on the overthrow of S. Husein should not show a picture of Irak as it might imply that the invasion was designed to enable Iraki freedom.Dejvid 21:30, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

No, it isn't anything like that. Perhaps you should explain exactly what a photograph of the earth taken from space has to do with the Kyoto Accord.--JonGwynne 00:18, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Maybe it's about global greenhouse gases. Image:Earth's atmosphere.jpg doesn't fit quite as well. (SEWilco 22:59, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC))

Article 3 1. The Parties included in Annex I shall, individually or jointly, ensure that their aggregate anthropogenic carbon dioxide equivalent emissions of the greenhouse gases listed in Annex A do not exceed their assigned amounts, calculated pursuant to their quantified emission limitation and reduction commitments inscribed in Annex B and in accordance with the provisions of this Article, with a view to reducing their overall emissions of such gases by at least 5 per cent below 1990 levels in the commitment period 2008 to 2012.

And, yes, exactly what happens after 2012 is subject to negotiation. It certainly would be a good idea to have a section on how these negotiations are going.Dejvid 21:30, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I read that part too. However I don't see where it talks about a "stage 2" or what (if anything) is going to be different after 2012. Could you explain where the concept of "stage 2" originated? And thanks for addressing the point. It is a refreshing change to deal with someone who actually discusses views and in a civil, constructive manner instead of certain others here (who shall remain nameless) who... well, don't.--JonGwynne 00:23, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

What I know about the negotiations is only from occasional reports in the news. The negotiations could stall so yes there is no guarantee that they will go deeper. Hopefully there will be well enough informed reporting to ensure that the politicians don't play a game of blame the others. The uncertainty of the outcome is implicit in the current wording of the Wikki article.Dejvid 18:09, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

OK, that's fine but it still doesn't help us get to the bottom of the question: Where in the Kyoto Protocol is the concept of a "stage two" mentioned and where does it say that things will be (or are intended to be, provided negotiations proceed in a certain way) different after 2012? I have heard that Kyoto is supposed to be a "first step" from several different sources, but none of them seem to be able to say what the "second step" is going to be. My point is that, unless there is a specific reason not to, Kyoto should be discussed as a distinct entity. Do you agree?--JonGwynne 20:03, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

---

The reference now contained in the article implies the existence of a "second phase" of Kyoto by referring to a meeting that was supposed to have taken place no later than the end of 1998. However, the Nature reference to Kyoto's controversial efficacy refers to the application of Kyoto through 2050. What is Kyoto supposed to do after 2050 that will make up for the little that it is projected to do up to that point? --JonGwynne 04:19, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The current provisions are only intended to apply to 2012. I don't understand why you have a problem with the current wording in that it admits the possibility that the process could get stuck there. And yes what happens after 2012 will probably be a new treaty but that doesn't make the long term irrelavant. Any restriction, even a limited one, eases the transition and encourages long term planning on the basis of increasing restrictions on Green house gasses and stimulates further research. Hence Kyoto is the foundation of future cuts. [1]. The reason why it is still open as to what happens after 2012 is because Europe wants to involve the US and the current US administration still regards the negotiations as "totally premature"[2]. Dejvid 12:52, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Another post 2012 link [3]Dejvid 13:46, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The reference in the article refers to a first meeting, and then requires reexamination until the goal is met, with no dates specified. (SEWilco 19:05, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC))

Again, this is all well and good but it doesn't provide any insight into the claim that Kyoto is a "first step". Can we please find some evidence to support this claim or remove it?--JonGwynne 23:53, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You are asking for a fixed timetable for futher reductions after 2012. For very good reasons these are not being laid down because it is hoped that the US will participate but the for the moment the US is holding back. Would it be sensible to try and lay down a timetable when 2012 is still 7 years away without input from the US?Dejvid 00:05, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

No, I am asking for support of the claim that Kyoto is a first step. Let's change the statement to something like "Supporters of Kyoto are hopeful that it will be a first step in addressing environmental issues"... How would that be? --JonGwynne 04:43, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Kyoto is already defined as a first step, and the US already signed the UNFCCC. Do you understand "shall"? And "regular intervals" sets no timetable until reviews are scheduled. (SEWilco 07:47, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC))

UNFCCC Article 4[4]

• 2(a): "Each of these Parties shall adopt national1 policies and take corresponding measures on the mitigation of climate change, by limiting its anthropogenic emissions of greenhouse gases and protecting and enhancing its greenhouse gas sinks and reservoirs. …"
• 2(d): "… A second review of subparagraphs (a) and (b) shall take place not later than 31 December 1998, and thereafter at regular intervals determined by the Conference of the Parties, until the objective of the Convention is met;"

And yet the peer-reviewed journal Nature has said that even if all these things happen, the results of the full implmentation of Kyoto through 2050 will be the reduction of global temperatures by a tiny fration of the projected increases. So perhaps someone could explain what comes after 2050 that will change this...--JonGwynne 23:38, 1 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

IMHO Kyoto is a first but important step in the sense that it creates a system that allows the regulation of CO2 at all, something which is not possible by now. Though the effect of Kyoto on global warming is indeed very small it is a step in the right direction. These kind of long term changes are not uncommon: it took >10 years to ban CFC and disarming talks between the SU and the USA also needed a long time and never were perfect (there are still enough nuclear bombs around for reaching an overkill). Thus starting with something (small) is often better than doing nothing. -- mkrohn 08:57, 2 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Not quite. The UNFCCC created the systems. Kyoto defined some numbers for it. Have you read them? (SEWilco 04:38, 3 May 2005 (UTC))[reply]

Thanks for the factual correction, though this does not change the argument itself. -- mkrohn 12:16, 4 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You don't actually know what you are arguing about. (SEWilco 17:02, 4 May 2005 (UTC))[reply]

Regulation of CO2 still isn't possible even with Kyoto since some countries didn't ratify it (The US, Austrialia) and others aren't regulated by it even though they have ratified it (e.g. China). So that isn't really a good argument for it. I agree with you that something should be done, but arguing that something that is expensive and ineffectual is better than nothing is not very convincing. Wouldn't be be better to do something that was pratical and effective?--JonGwynne 04:43, 3 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

But waiting will be far more expensive. First small changes now are worth far larger steps later. Second it is far cheaper to proceed in small steps. Isn't that obvious? If I'm going to double glaze my windows then it makes sense to do it when the windows need replacing. Kyoto works at the macro level but to fufill their obligations the signatories will have to be encouraging small chages like that. The alternative is to do nothing until things get so bad that they must be done in a rush - and that will really cost.Dejvid 11:40, 4 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I fully agree with Dejvid. It is better to begin with small steps (and probably continue with small steps) than sitting around and doing nothing. The evidence for global warming is overwhelming [5] and it is time to do something about it. And to make that pretty clear: I would like to believe that minorities like F. Singer are right and global warming is not happening, all models are wrong and we do not have to do anything about it. But given the scientific evidence this position is IMHO not responsible and thus we have to do something about it (and besides: Singer also needed about 5 more years than everyone else to admit that CFCs do destroy the ozone layer).

Criticising Kyoto is easy, but offering something which is more "practical and effective" is hard, but perhaps Jon has the ultimate solution to reduce CO2 output worldwide? ;-) --mkrohn 12:16, 4 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"Doing nothing" about what? Why do you think it is necessary to reduce CO2? (SEWilco 17:02, 4 May 2005 (UTC))[reply]

Please read carefully. I did not wrote that it is necessary to reduce CO2. My statement was about reducing the CO2 output (which is so to speak the first derivative). Even stopping the acceleration of CO2 concentration (the second derivative) would be helpful right now. -- mkrohn 18:19, 4 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

If stopping reducing GHGs is your only concern, are you comfortable with the non-GHG requirements in the UNFCCC? And what is the correct level for GHGs? (SEWilco 20:52, 4 May 2005 (UTC))[reply]

The section on support is about only political support. The section on opposition is about both political and scientific opposition. I doubt there's no scientific support for the treaty; it was based on something. (no snide remarks please ^_^) In any case, there seems to be an inbalance in form between the two sections.

(As a nit, there's mention of an open letter being written to the Prime Minister of Canada in the opposition section. The letter is against the protocol, of course, but the article doesn't bother to mention this.)

(William M. Connolley 15:51, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)) There isn't really any science in the opposition section is there? I've just moved a bit of CB stuff out, because it wasn't criticism.

I was thinking of these lines:

For example, Russia's influential Academy of Sciences (RAN) said the government's decision to approve the Kyoto Protocol was "purely political," and that it had "no scientific justification." [10] (http://putinru.com/news/item/31072.html) The Russian experts told president Putin that Kyoto was scientifically unfounded nonsense

and

In June 2003, an open letter[18] (http://www.john-daly.com/guests/openletter.htm) was written to Canada's then-future prime minister, Paul Martin, signed by 46 climate experts from six countries—Martin has yet to respond. A open letter previously (http://www.envirotruth.org/openletter.cfm) was signed by 27 climate experts and sent to then-current Prime Minister, Jean Chrétien.

Throughout this page, there is mention of groups of scientists opposing the treaty, but only political groups supporting it. This kind of gives the impression that the various goverments/enviromental groups are doing so in opposition to scientific consensus. A quick google came up with this article which while presumably biased contains the claim "Back in 2000, 63 Academies of Sciences throughout the world issued a joint statement urging that early ratification of the Kyoto Protocol is vital for conservation of the environment." That's a falsifiable statement which, if true, should probably be included in the article. Another article mentions that "Sixty-five scientists have sent a letter to Alberta Premier Ralph Klein saying they support implementation of the Kyoto Accord on greenhouse gas emission reductions." Since these are pretty much direct counterparts of statements made in the opposition section, they should probably go in the support section. --Starwed 16:43, 2 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Once again you are engaging in incivil conduct. If you don't think Stott's statements belong in the intro, then put them somewhere else. Calling them "nonsense" is simply rude and incivil - and demonstrates that you have nothing substantive to offer in response to them. In spite of the fact that they reject your deeply-held personal beliefs on the subject, they are relevant to the discussion of Kyoto and your deletion of them is nothing more than censorship. Are you so afraid of opposing views that you seek to stifle them wherever you can? --JonGwynne 04:00, 3 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Removed personal attack from header. It is about the Stott quote:

No, you don't get to censor criticism of either yourself or your idealogy. That wasn't a personal attack, it was an objective statement of fact. You engaged in incivil conduct in violation of wikipedia policy. The header was simply an observation of that fact. If you don't like being labelled as a violator of wikipedia policy then I suggest you stop violating it.--JonGwynne 14:27, 3 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Philip Stott has been quoted in a BBC online interview [6], talking about a fundamental "contradiction" of the Kyoto Protocol: "that climate is one of the most complex systems known, yet that we can manage it by trying to control a small set of factors, namely greenhouse gas emissions. Scientifically, this is not mere uncertainty: it is a lie."

Which I removed as it doesn't belong in the intro - or perhaps even in the article. Stott is, by my reading, calling the climate researchers, on whose work the protocol is base, liars. That seems rather inflammatory and not really relevant. Vsmith 13:34, 3 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yet, you don't bother to explain why it doesn't belong. You express your personal opinion that his statements are "inflammatory" and claim they aren't relevant. We'll leave aside the overtly POV nature of this claim and skip right to the fact that at no time do you bother to dispute the factual accuracy of Stott's statement. Oh yeah, and Stott's statement directly addresses the Kyoto Accord - that isn't disputed either, despite your unsupported claim that it is irrelevant. To respond to the only substantive point you actually make in your rebuttal, there is no indication that Stott is calling climate researchers liars - his use of the term is somewhat ambiguous, he might just as easily be referring to policitians. In fact, I think that is more likely. A climate researcher who understood the mechanisms underlying global climate (to the extent that they can be understood at the current time) would be unlikely to subscribe to the view that global climate can be managed "by trying to control a small set of factors, namely greenhouse gas emissions". Such a view doesn't pass the laugh test - yet it is something that policitians might tend to latch onto in order to serve their political rather than scientific agenda. In any event, this is pretty clearly just another case of your idealogical censorship of views you find objectionable.--JonGwynne 14:28, 3 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"Stott is, by my reading, calling the climate researchers, on whose work the protocol is base, liars. That seems rather inflammatory and not really relevant." No, that Stott phrase does not mention scientists, and is referring to a contradiction within the Kyoto documents. Stott is saying the politicians creating the UNFCCC and its Kyoto Protocol are liars. Stott is saying the concept of controlling the complex climate through only greenhouse gas emissions is a lie which goes beyond scientific uncertainty. If this concept is false, is this relevant? (SEWilco 18:02, 3 May 2005 (UTC))[reply]

Do me a favor SE and keep an eye on this. Because of local politics and a handful of biased administrators, I am not allowed to revert Global warming-related articles more than once. So, alas, it will have to be up to others to try to maintain balance here. As you can see, they even try to censor facts about themselves in the discussion page - No Marco, you don't get the censor facts here either. It is highly inappropriate for you to modify other people's commentary here in any case. Please stop doing it. If you have anything to say on the subject, your comments are welcome. Your attempted censorship is not.--JonGwynne 04:39, 4 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

:-) Politics and biased administrators have banned you, "the others" are POV warriors and do not have a balanced view. Oh, and yes they always attack personal while "you" present objective facts and if "they" cannot argue anymore the only thing "they" do is censoring the article. -- mkrohn 08:21, 4 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

If you'd stop trying to censor other people's statements, it would be a big help. I'll remind you that it is highly inappropriate to edit other people's comments on this page. This is a place where everyone can speak their mind without being censored. The statement that VSmith is in violation of wikipedia policy isn't a "personal attack", it is a statement of fact. Wikipedia policy states that incivil comments are verboten and yet VSmith makes them. It isn't an attack to point this out. It may be embarrassing to him to be called on his violations but that's his problem. BTW, your assessment is essentially accurate.  ;-> --JonGwynne 23:04, 4 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Again removed a personal attack from the section header - the issue is the Stott quote. JonGwynne has been reprimanded previously for personal attacks in an Arbcom ruling against him (see:[7]) and he is on "Personal attack parole" as a finding of that case. I consider his actions here and on other talk and edit comments to be personal attacks against me and other users and will file a report to the members of the arbcom involved if his attacks do not cease immediately. I expect an apology from him regarding his inuendos and attacks against me. -Vsmith 23:59, 4 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I have removed the Stott quote again as it does not belong in the intro to the article. I have also reverted other POV materials JG reverted back in. Vsmith 23:59, 4 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Your deceptive (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that they weren't deliberately and maliciously deceptive) descriptions of this header notwithstanding, you have no right to censor or edit my statements on this board in *any way*. If you disagree with them, feel free to express your disagreement in whatever manner you deem suitable - but you may not edit *my* statements. It is not a personal attack to describe violations of wiki policy as violations of wiki policy. The fact remains that your comments re: Stott were incivil and, as such, a violation of wiki policy. You have no basis to consider the factual descriptions of your actions to be "personal attacks". They are not attacks in any way, shape or form but rather factually accurate and completely impersonal remarks - unlike, for example, your own comments regarding Philip Stott.--JonGwynne 01:55, 5 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

p.s. I notice remain unwilling or unable to justify your removal of Stott's remarks regarding the view that global climate can be substantively affected by attempting to modify minor factors that influence it. This is the entire basis of the Kyoto Protocol and his point is directly on point. But, based on your actions in the past, it seems pretty clear that you won't tolerate legitimate criticism of the position of the IPCC and those who support Kyoto.--JonGwynne 01:55, 5 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Nope, you're still not allowed to censor my comments. And I notice you've still failed to justify your censorship of Stott. What's your thing with censorship? Are you really that worried that your position can't withstand scrutiny that you have to violate other people's freedom of expression on the subject?--JonGwynne 05:04, 6 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

JonGwinne said: "VSmith is still at it" in reverting the title of this section.
This is incorrect. I changed the title, as it is clearly too long, and contains redundant information which can be found by reading this section. It's pretty obvious that JonGwynne thinks VSmith is violating wiki policy from the first few lines; there is no censorship going on here, just an attempt to make the talk page more readable. --Starwed 16:11, 6 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

So there is a lot of talk here (as well as many other places on the internet) about everything that is involved with this protocol; the people, the consequences etc etc...

Nowhere is it defined what this protocol really fundamentally is. How was it decided how certain countries can pollute less by 2010, while others can pollute more? How is this based on population density and land area exactly? What other factors come into play? When a country starts to buy credits, the more it buys, the more expensive they get, what forumla does this follow?

Who made up all these formulas? What univerisity/what prof.? Was there other formulas that were also being concidered?

In my opinion, these are the questions that it all comes down to, and I think it would be super helpful if they were addressed here.

Thanks,

-jet

Start with the first sentence in the article and click on something in there: "The Kyoto Protocol is an amendment to the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC), " (SEWilco 18:04, 3 May 2005 (UTC))[reply]

Already have looked around, and double checked the above link and the associated links and there is Nothing about the math formulas that govern kyoto. There really is nothing about this anywhere I have looked. If there is, it needs to be way less hard to find.

You are having trouble finding logical reasons for the decisions because they are political decisions. (SEWilco 17:09, 4 May 2005 (UTC))[reply]

Ya you're probably right. It is just sad that there can be so much action and arguing over something that isnt even understood, and worse yet, not even attempted to be explained. Super extra kudos to anyone who can break through and find what model this is based on, who designed it etc.

(William M. Connolley 21:53, 26 May 2005 (UTC)) I removed Stott. He is of no particular significance, nor are his views. I can't see any excuse for putting him in the article at all, let alone the intro.[reply]

Well, at least you're trying to abide by the terms of the injunction against you, but in this case you're falling a bit short. You offer no support for your unmarked reversion apart from your traditional "because I said so, that's why" argument. Stott's views on the subject *are relevant* and here's why:

• He is a noted critic of the Kyoto Accords - his views on the subject have been sought by, among others, the BBC (the source of the quote). So, it is clear that other people in positions of higher authority that yours feel that Stott's views *are* relevant. In fact, if you'd read the article in question, you might have seen that Stott was described as "a prominent British climate sceptic". Ergo, your claim that Stott or his views are "of no particular significance" is untrue on its face. Your abject failure to support your claim is sufficient evidence of its spurious nature.

(William M. Connolley 16:25, 27 May 2005 (UTC)) Stott isn't particularly notable. Being interviewed once by the BBC doesn't make you notable.[reply]

He's been interviewed more than once, he's standard source for them on such matter. --JonGwynne 18:42, 27 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

(William M. Connolley 19:21, 27 May 2005 (UTC)) Oh no he isn't. And even if he was, it wouldn't justify his place in the intro to the Kyoto article.[reply]

• The comment in question is spot-on in terms of relevance to the article in question. In other words, he is speaking specifically about the Kyoto Accords and not about generalities which may or may not have any bearing on the issue.

(William M. Connolley 16:25, 27 May 2005 (UTC)) The comment in question is largely irrelevant and scientifically illiterate.[reply]

• It is appropriate to place Stott's statement in the intro as the intro should reflect the whole of the article in terms of content. In the case of Kyoto, it should include some mention of the criticism levelled at it and Stott's statement is both succinct and completely true.

(William M. Connolley 16:25, 27 May 2005 (UTC)) Stotts statement doesn't reflect mainstream opposition to Kyoto at all.[reply]

So you say - your insistence on judging everything by what is "mainstream" is undermining your case. Science isn't about what is "mainstream", it is about finding out what is true. Remember Galileo and Copernicus weren't "mainstream" - but they were right. And you're also wrong about the opposition to Kyoto - Stott's view is precisely in line with the opposition to Kyoto who question the assertion that anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions are responsible for global warming or that humans can manage global climate by reducing anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions. --JonGwynne 18:42, 27 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

(William M. Connolley 19:21, 27 May 2005 (UTC)) Au contraire, Galileo *was* the scientific mainstream. You septics are putting yourself, now, in the place of the Catholic church, then: desperately trying to hold back the weight of scientific evidence. And failing.[reply]

Are you serious? Galileo was definitely *not* the scientific mainstream - he was in direct opposition to it and what infuriated those who held the "orthodox" view espoused by the church was that he was willing to question things that they preferred to have accepted on faith - just as we see with the "hockey stick" today. It is the IPCC who are playing the role of the Catholic Church in attempting to supress criticism of the orthodox view. The condemnation and indignation of those who supported the "official" view of the universe was the same then as it is now - those who defend orthodoxy resort to the same ad hominem attacks rather that discussing the evidence. --JonGwynne 20:36, 27 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Since I have completely demolished your claims regarding the quote, I'll replace it. If you (or anyone else) have anything substantive to say in response to the points I've raised, you are at liberty to reply. It would be appropriate for you to do so before reverting the quote. --JonGwynne 00:37, 27 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

• 1. The Stott quote is not from a peer reviewed article, it is from a BBC interview.

A lot of statements in that article are not from peer-reviewed sources... Why are you singling out Stott's quote? Oh yeah, because you disagree with it and it embarrasses people who try to push their POV on the Kyoto Accords... --JonGwynne 04:04, 27 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

• 2. Stott is not a climate scientist and has not to my knowledge published in the field. He does appear to be "a prominent British climate sceptic", but what does that mean - he likes to make noise belittling the possible reality of climate change.

Stott is a professor of biogeopgraphy which, according to the wikipedia article is a field "related to geography, biology, geology, climatology, and ecology". You definition of "skeptic" is a perfect example of why you should refrain from editing anything related to climate change - the idea that you consider skeptics to be "noisemakers" who "belittle" the subjects in which they express their skepticism is pretty clear evidence of your extremist POV. --JonGwynne 04:04, 27 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

• 3. The quote is sensationalist and attention grabbing. He is essentially calling the climate scientists responsible for the work Kyoto is based on liars. There are problems and areas for legitimate disagreement with Kyoto and those legitimate criticisms do have a place in the article. This sensationalist BBC quote doesn't cut it, it is POV pushing to insist on putting it in the intro or the article. Find some published criticism instead.

Vsmith 03:14, 27 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You mean, "sensationalist and attention grabbing" in your personal opinion. You haven't said that you think Stott is wrong (though I'm sure you will now) - just implied that Stott doesn't know what he's talking about (though he clearly has the backgroung to be consider an expert by organizations like the BBC) by engaging in ad hominem attacks on him - the first indication that someone doesn't have a leg to stand on. You have failed to back up your reversion. --JonGwynne 04:04, 27 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Try Googling Stott - people seem to regard him as a bit of a nutcase. Good job in biogeography, but his extremist sensationalism makes me wonder whether his biased view of science tainted that journal too (ie, what wasn't published because he was editor?) Guettarda 20:30, 27 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Who gives a damn how "people regard him"? This isn't a popularity contest. People thought Darwin was a nutcase too. Try concentrating on his actual work. Whether or not he's a "nutcase" is irrelevant - what matter is whether or not his work is right or wrong. --JonGwynne 20:36, 27 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Incidentally, you are correct that my edit slightly changed the meaning of the affected portion in the into. That was because it was incorrect before and I corrected it. The current version is fatally flawed. There is no evidence that there will be "further cuts" in the future, so creating the expectation that they will be is deceptive. There is also no clear indication what the word "objective" means in the context in which it is used - so I removed it to increase the clarity of the section. The insignificant projected reduction in global temperatures brought about by the complete implementation of Kyoto (as demonstrated by the study published in Nature) is the reason its value is questioned. Confusing the matter with some half-assed attempt to rebut the criticism by describing the wishful thinking of Kyoto cheerleaders and their hopes of what might come to be in their version of the future is extremely deceptive. --JonGwynne 20:46, 27 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

(William M. Connolley 21:16, 28 May 2005 (UTC)) JG changed: Because of this many critics and environmentalists question the value of the Kyoto Protocol should the negotiations fail to produce deeper cuts in the future. to Because of this many critics and environmentalists question the value of the Kyoto Protocol. Omitting the last clause changes the meaning strongly and makes it inaccurate: hence restore the words. Can't see why until the objective is met, was removed either, since JGs edit comment Another edit to attempt to introduce some accuracy and balance to the intro doesn't help.[reply]

Perhaps you should consider re-reading the version you reverted. The one you substituted is not only inaccurate, but grammatically incorrect. It is not generally considered correct to insert a paragraph break between two sentences conveying a single thought. The section "the Kyoto Protocol is predicted to reduce the average global temperature by somewhere between 0.02°C and 0.28°C by the year 2050 (source: Nature, October 2003), compared to the increase of 1.4°C to 5.8°C between 1990 and 2100 predicted by the IPCC" goes hand-in-hand with the "Because of this many critics and environmentalists question the value of the Kyoto Protocol". I know, because I wrote it. Your POV attempt to change the meaning of this section and undermine the inherent flaws of the KP are unacceptable and, more importantly, unsupported by any evidence. The feeble attempt to rationalize the flaws of KP by citing wishful thinking on the part of politicians and activists is also POV and, therefore, inappropriate for wikipedia. You want to write an editorial for some blog then feel free. But do please spare wikipedia your cant.