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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Void if removed (talk | contribs) at 16:01, 15 January 2024 (→‎Removals from history: Reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.


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Considering the nature of this page, I full-heartily hope this isn't inappropriate to do. Danny, JumboSizedFish (talk) 22:00, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Done! PBZE (talk) 07:08, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! Danny, JumboSizedFish (talk) 18:57, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

More sources on socialization

Can anyone help me dig up some original sources of GC’s saying things about socialization? I’m trying as I can, but it’s an experience reminiscent of when I had to search for anti-vaxx views online for a school project in 2015 - the actual views are hard to find, and the criticism of them is much more common. As such, if anyone has any original sources, it’d help. Snokalok (talk) 14:36, 1 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is it worth adding yesterday's judgment against Westminster Council and Social Work England? Seems to be notable.

More here:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/09/social-worker-wins-discrimination-claim-over-social-media-posts

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/01/09/social-worker-suspended-there-are-two-sexes-wins-tribunal/

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/social-worker-wins-harassment-claim-over-gender-critical-views-3v395btmg

https://unherd.com/thepost/victory-for-social-worker-harassed-over-gender-critical-beliefs/

https://www.localgov.co.uk/Tribunal-rules-against-council-in-discrimination-case-/58630

https://www.personneltoday.com/hr/gender-critical-rachel-meade-westminster-city-council-social-work-england/ Void if removed (talk) 14:37, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I think this is worth including – the Guardian piece includes: ‘The judge said the disciplinary process from 6 November 2021 amounted to harassment’ which is strong language. Thanks for picking this up – I had missed it. Sweet6970 (talk) 18:26, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Adding the BBCs coverage as well which just appeared: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67934781 Void if removed (talk) 18:48, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This one is useful because it provides another RS description of what GCF beliefs actually are. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 08:16, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it's usable for that - we have sources discussing it directly; relying on a passing description in coverage of a court case doesn't really make sense. --Aquillion (talk) 08:44, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We have many sources describing it directly in these same terms. This is not a passing reference, this is explaining the basis of the case at issue, and accords with what is neutrally represented in multiple HQ sources. Void if removed (talk) 09:24, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If we have better sources (ones actually about this topic rather than just mentioning it briefly as part of the background for something else), we can use them instead; but this one adds nothing. It is, in this context, a passing reference - they are briefly explaining some background for the case at issue; they are not providing an in-depth look at this article's topic as a whole. That makes it a bad source for anything other than that specific case, and the case itself doesn't seem significant enough to include here. --Aquillion (talk) 09:37, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's useful in that it provides additional weight (not just from the BBC, but from a judge) to the perspective that GCF is primarily about the nature and importance of sex, as opposed to, say, being some kind of far-right Christian plot. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 09:46, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The judgment also explicitly finds the opinions - and the expression of them - not to be transphobic:
The opinions expressed by the Claimant could not sensibly be viewed as being transphobic when properly considered in their full context from an objective perspective
I think this sort of thing highlights the increasingly hard to reconcile conflict between the position of UK courts and reporting in neutral sources, and the many (sometimes quite hyperbolic) sources in use on this page that maintain it is inherently and unavoidably transphobic, and anyone who disagrees is transphobic by extension. Void if removed (talk) 10:12, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • A judge is not a subject-matter expert; their opinion is relevant when it comes to the law (and mostly just the law that appeared before them, ie. this specific case.) They have no WP:WEIGHT when weighing in on larger social issues. Certainly I would strenuously oppose weighing a judge's decision over eg. academic coverage from experts on the subject. --Aquillion (talk) 21:13, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Surely not zero weight. As a larger social issue, academics don't have privileged access to truth. Reliable sources of all kinds should be used.
    One of the front-lines of dispute is about whether GCFs should be characterised as intrinsically transphobic, hateful or akin to racists. Where these concepts intersect with laws, a judge is very much a subject matter expert. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 11:14, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    One of the front-lines of dispute is about whether GCFs should be characterised as intrinsically transphobic, hateful or akin to racists. Where these concepts intersect with laws, a judge is very much a subject matter expert.
    I agree, this should definitely carry some weight.
    More coverage in the Times: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/social-workers-scared-to-speak-about-trans-issues-382370zcm
    And today, from Simon Fanshawe: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/beware-the-culture-wars-how-employers-can-trip-over-trans-issues-fvj9m5kxv
    Seems that a key aspect that keeps coming up is that the regulator was criticised for taking a complaint at face value rather than investigating it was malicious before taking action. As an aside I note that part of the reasoning in the judgment that the complaint shouldn't have been taken at face value was that the original complainant used "TERF". Void if removed (talk) 11:41, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think no. This appears to be a regular first-tier tribunal ruling, and overall not that impactful. It doesn't appear to have created any new case law, unlike the Forstater appeal. While it's no doubt impactful to Meade, I fail to see how this is of encyclopaedic relevance, especially with respect to WP:NOTEVERYTHING and WP:NOTNEWS. Sideswipe9th (talk) 23:11, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Taylor v Jaguar Land Rover Ltd was a first tier ruling. First tier rulings aren't by themselves meaningless, and there are several notable aspects to this.
Per the Telegraph:
It is the first case of its kind where an employer and regulator have both been found liable for discrimination in relation to gender-critical beliefs, which Ms Meade described as the thought that “there are two sexes, male and female” and “that a person cannot change their sex”.
It is another case that builds upon and reinforces Forstater, covering as it does expression of belief. It lays out, again, what "GC" means in terms of UK law (good for the lede), and is notable because not only her employer, but also her regulator were found guilty not only of discrimination, but also harassment. Also notable because, contra many of the criticisms on this page, found "her opinions were not “of a nature that they aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms of others”". Void if removed (talk) 09:21, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The quotation from The Telegraph that you've highlighted seems to be misrepresenting the judgement. The issue at play here, per paragraphs 190-194 of the judgement, are those of freedom of thought (para 193), and whether the manifestation of Meade's beliefs were of a nature that they aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms of others contrary to Article 17 (para 194). In this instance, the tribunal found that the manifestations of Meade's beliefs did not rise to the level specified in para 194. There is also a lot of detail from paragraphs 205 to 266 detailing where the employer (first respondent) and complainant against Meade (second respondent) both were correct (eg, para 207 and 235 found that Meade's initial suspension on 22 July 2021 did not amount to discrimination for her beliefs) and incorrect (eg para 211 where the employer did not clearly identify the posts which they are considered went beyond a manifestation of the Claimant’s protected beliefs and why they considered this to be the case and para 233 where it was only the actions taken after 6 November 2021 which the tribunal found discriminatory).
If we're going to include this case at all, then we should wait for legal scholars published in reliable sources to analyse and summarise the key points. The press sources, like The Telegraph, do not go into a level of detail that fully and accurately summarises the breadth and depth of the ruling. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:15, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My instinct is also no. I don't think the article on feminism in general would mention a court case involving a feminist unless it was somehow very clearly tied to the concept as a whole. So for instance an article on the civil rights movement would mention Brown v. Board but it doesn't mention every single one of the many legal actions relating to the movement. Loki (talk) 04:59, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yeah, it's not really a useful source at the moment unless there's later reason to believe that it's a major case that directly relates to the topic as a whole. Articles like these aren't meant to cover every blow-by-blow of every court case related to anyone involved in the topic. --Aquillion (talk) 08:44, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would add, for anyone arguing that this case should not be added - can we please apply the same logic to the AEA and Amy Hamm cases. Why should they be included? The sourcing on both is much weaker, AEA/EHRC is not an impactful judgment or one that relates specifically to gender-critical feminism, and the other isn't even a judgment at all yet. In addition to the numerous opinion pieces, straightforward news reporting on the Meade case is: BBC, Guardian, Times, Telegraph - that's a broad spread of the media in the UK. The other two are sourced solely to Pink News and LGBTQ Nation. There's no comparison there. Void if removed (talk) 10:33, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the Meade case is significant because it involves discrimination and harassment by a public authority and a regulatory body. Also, it is treated as significant by Personnel Today, which gives it considerable coverage, presumably because the publication thinks its readers need to know about it, in order to guide their conduct in future.
Another point: The section is called Legal cases, but perhaps it should be re-titled Discrimination against gender-critical feminists. Sweet6970 (talk) 17:50, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, I edited the main page without realizing this discussion was going on. Yes we should include as its covered by multiple reliable sources. AndyGordon (talk) 22:40, 13 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I count four in favour of inclusion, three against. But even if we do exclude, the current rationale for excluding this case would IMO favour removing the AEA and Amy Hamm cases. Void if removed (talk) 23:39, 13 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I support the retitle Discrimination against gender-critical feminists suggested by @Sweet6970
Re Hamm, there are other sources that could be consulted especially CBN News, not just the one we're currently using.
Re the AEA case, not sure. The paragraph is a direct copy from our LGB Alliance page. As written, it doesn't explain what the case has to do with GC feminism, whereas the other three legal cases are all about discrimination against GC feminists. AndyGordon (talk) 08:36, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps these would all fit better in the United Kingdom section, given they are cases about UK law? Having the section at the top level might misleadingly imply that these rulings apply in other jurisdictions. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 11:22, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, I simply note that if WP:NOTEVERYTHING and WP:NOTNEWS apply to this, there are many many other things they apply to on this page, and if we set the bar here, then we should have a clean out of lots of other "news" that doesn't meet this threshold.
There's other sources for Amy Hamm (CBC has some I believe), but there's no ruling - does it need a blow by blow or should it wait till its finished? And AEA has no place here IMO. Its filler. If Equality Act judgments are important, then there's half a dozen rulings far more consequential and widely covered than this I can think of off the top of my head (all the FPFW and FWS judicial reviews for starters). Void if removed (talk) 11:46, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, I would not support a narrowing of the legal cases section implied by such a renaming.
Re AEA v EHRC, I believe the second edition (and later) of A Practical Guide to Transgender Law by Robin Moira White QC, has detail for why this case is impactful with regards to the subject of this article, based upon the publisher's update note (page 6 of the PDF, after page 226 of the book) for its inclusion. This case was brought by a then prominent gender-critical activist, Ann Sinnott, and her organisation challinging the 2011 EHRC guidance on the inclusion of trans people, particularly trans women, in single and separate sex services. I would suggest instead that we cite and expand upon that analysis from White, as it details why this case and it's failure was impactful. I'd need to get a copy of the latest edition of that book though to see if there's any difference between the update note linked earlier in this paragraph and what is in the most recent edition, unless one of you already has a copy?
Re Hamm, I'm actually going to be removing it after posting this reply on NPOV grounds. There doesn't yet seem to be a ruling, and I don't see a good reason for us to be highlighting individual quotations from what she has said in oral evidence. That fundamentally fails NPOV, as we are only highlighting Hamm's side of the case. According to one of the bodies involved with Hamm's case, they won't be submitting written arguments until sometime in the early part of this year, so this is very much an ongoing case. I'd suggest we keep a note of it somewhere on the talk page however, and look at what sourcing exists particularly from legal scholars and analysts when the judgement is eventually issued. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:56, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"...known to its opponents..."

Saying that it is "known to its opponents as..." is plainly non-neutral wording and is completely unacceptable in the lead sentence. The given sources do not describe it that way; many of them use it as if it is a neutral descriptor and the proper terminology. Characterizing the authors as opponents is editorializing on our part. Furthermore, the framing implies that "gender critical" is the 'real', neutral term, which every source for that sentence contradicts - all of them present it as a self-description and use quotes surrounding it to make it clear it is a non-neutral term. If we were to qualify TERF with "...known to its opponents...", we would have to insert "Self-described" before "gender-critical", otherwise we'd be misusing the sources. --Aquillion (talk) 09:00, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, completely neutral sources employ "gender-critical". Hostile sources use TERF. The sources cited in the lede use words like "despise" about their subjects - are you seriously arguing that this is non-oppositional? That TERF is mentioned three times in the opening sentence of this article is non-neutral, and attempting to sanitise it by implying that those who are gender-critical refer to their own beliefs as "TERFism" or "TERF ideology" is absolutely unsupportable.
The introduction to a recent blatantly hostile source addition ("Exploring TERFnesses") even at one point uses the term "FART". I wonder quite why we're taking such pathetic juvenilia seriously TBH (and this is from a prominent and influential activist and author, not some random nobody), but there we are.
That source also says:
The acronym TERF, which means Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminism, was coined by the Australian blogger Viv Smythe in 2008 to refer to a specific form of feminist hostility towards trans issues.
So again, the term is about "hostility to trans issues". Not a neutral or accurate description that is equivalent to "believing sex is real, immutable, binary and important" which is what "gender-critical" is widely accepted to mean, eg. in UK law.
It also says:
we see the expression ‘gender-critical feminism’ – a self-definition by some individuals and groups labelled TERFs by others – as problematic because it serves specific actors to ‘rebrand’ their anti-trans activism and to legitimise their own positions by presenting them as more moderate (Thurlow, 2022) or as doing critical work (Ahmed, 2021). While several authors in this special issue have suggested new expressions to address this phenomenon, we prefer to use the term TERFnesses based on the term TERF, because of its resonance in contemporary debates
Again, non-neutral - they don't see the two terms as neutrally equivalent, they see "gender-critical" as sanitising vague anti-trans beliefs they believe to be bad, and "TERF" a more resonant term for highlighting that negativity. The decision to employ a non-neutral term is explicit.
The use of TERF is inherently non-neutral because it is derogatory. There is no question about that. The only serious disagreement is technically whether it goes so far as to be a slur (and even then the best is that there is "academic disagreement"). Void if removed (talk) 09:55, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That is your personal assessment of the source; it isn't what the source says. What they say is that "gender-critical feminism" is a non-neutral self-description used as a tactical rebranding, whereas TERF is the more established term. "Resonance" in this context means that it is a term that has broader usage. If you want to characterize "TERF" as being used primarily by its opponents, you will need high-quality academic sources saying so unambiguously (and you would need an overwhelming number of such sources, because they're in conflict with the sources already in the article.) And even then, it would be necessary to add the "self-described" before gender-critical, because the sources unambiguously frame it that way; you don't seem to be disputing that at all, you even quoted them saying it yourself. Obviously if we were going to characterize the usage of one term we would have to characterize both. --Aquillion (talk) 21:11, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The introduction to a recent blatantly hostile source addition ("Exploring TERFnesses") even at one point uses the term "FART". I wonder quite why we're taking such pathetic juvenilia seriously TBH (and this is from a prominent and influential activist and author, not some random nobody), but there we are.

Please don't misrepresent sources. "Exploring TERFnesses" doesn't use the term "FART" in its own voice, it just mentions the term's existence. Also, reliable sources can be used here even if you personally dislike or disagree with them. PBZE (talk) 19:28, 13 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1) There are countless examples of scholarly and mainstream media sources using this term descriptively. 2) There are numerous examples of TERFs calling themselves TERFs, there are even TERF groups that call themselves TERFs (sometimes written as "terven"). 3) The term was created as a neutral, descriptive term, by radical feminists themselves. If some (how many is debatable) TERFs now perceive it negatively, it's because of how the transphobic ideology it refers to is perceived, more than it is related to the term itself. Thus, the term can be compared to "racist", which describes an ideology that is widely condemned (and some might object to being called racists), but that is nevertheless a descriptive term – in the sense that racism does exist and some people/groups are racist. We don't write "known as racism to opponents". --Amanda A. Brant (talk) 14:17, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is well established that the term is derogatory. Therefore, it cannot be neutral. Sweet6970 (talk) 17:53, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is not at all established that it is uniformly derogatory. You have cited multiple high-quality academic sources using it in the article voice themselves; our usage reflects the highest-quality usage, not random blogs or opinion pieces. And, in comparison, we have sources overtly saying that "gender-critical" is a non-neutral self-description, so certainly we can never present it as the more neutral term. --Aquillion (talk) 21:11, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
our usage reflects the highest-quality usage, not random blogs or opinion pieces
No - it reflects some selective academic usage, and ignores the many other sources that have come up many times in this talk page - far beyond just "blogs and opinion". Aside from the fact that the OED says it is derogatory, some choice quotes:
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09612025.2022.2147915
In the UK trans inclusive and gender critical feminists hold positions that are increasingly polarised. While the latter seek to exclude trans women from the category ‘woman’ and advocate for single sex spaces that would exclude trans women, they argue that the term ‘TERF’ (trans exclusionary radical feminist) is a derogatory slur in part due to its use by opponents on social media, and they prefer the term ‘gender critical’. While ‘TERF’ itself is a contested term and argued not to be a slur by some on the trans inclusive side, I will apply ‘gender critical’ here out of respect for people’s rights to self-define.
Kathleen Stock: Material Girls
In 2008, denigrating the motives of critics of gender identity theory was given a big boost with the invention of a 'TERF'. TERF stands for 'Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist'. It was reportedly coined by American Viv Smythe. In 2008 Smythe was running a feminist blog. In a post, she promoted the Michigan Womyn's Musical Festival, also known as Michfest. When founded in 1976, Michfest had been conceived by its radical feminist organisers as for females only - or, as organisers named them, 'Womyn-born-womyn'. There was a heavy lesbian presence, in the traditional same-sex sense, amongst attendees. Latterly, the festival had become controversial for its explicit exclusion of trans women from the event. (Indeed, eventually Michfest closed in 2015, partly due to this controversy.) Smythe was quickly taken to task by blog readers for her promotion of Michfest, and in the course of her subsequent public apology, coined the acronym TERF. She wrote, of her promise not to promote any trans-exclusionary feminist event' in future: 'I am aware that this decision is likely to affront some trans-exclusionary radical feminists (TERFs).'n The term TERF rapidly took off, as memorable acronyms often do - perhaps helped by its ugly phonetics and capacity to be easily barked out as an insult or threat. Though in Smythe's original construction, TERFs were, by definition, feminists, later popular usage of the term widened to refer to any person at all who had, for whatever reason, an even mildly critical perspective on the bundle of ideas that constitutes gender identity theory. Indeed, trans women and trans men themselves came to be called TERFs, whenever they worried that gender identity alone was not what made you a woman or man.
Holly Lawford Smith: Sex Matters
Despite its alleged introduction as a neutral acronym for a version of radical feminism, in its current usage the term `TERF' has evolved so that it has become derogatory in at least its implicature if not its content. The term is widely used to apply to those who hold that the sex category 'female' has social and political relevance in certain contexts regardless "of gender identity. The term is almost exclusively used in derogatory and dehumanizing ways, and often accompanied by violent imagery, by those who are critical of people who take such a view. On seven different accounts of slurs, TERF appears to meet the criterion for counting as a slur.
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/08/29/philosophers-object-journals-publication-terf-reference-some-feminists-it-really
TERF is an acronym meaning “trans-exclusionary radical feminist.” While the term has become controversial over time, especially with its often hateful deployment on social media, it originally described a subgroup of feminists who believe that the interests of cisgender women (those who are born with vaginas) don’t necessarily intersect with those of transgender women (primarily those born with penises). [...] TERF “is widely used across online platforms as a way to denigrate and dismiss the women (and some men) who disagree with the dominant narrative on trans issues,” the scholars wrote.
Finn Mackay: Female Masculinities
The acronym has become so widely shared in social media activism and mainstream journalism that it has become almost a void, as it is applied to anyone expressing transphobic, prejudiced, bigoted or otherwise exclusionary views about trans men, trans women and all transgender and trans people. It is applied to those who are not feminist activists and would never identify themselves as feminists; it is put onto those who may be feminists but are certainly not Radical Feminists; it has become a shorthand for transphobic, and mostly applied to women
Void if removed (talk) 23:55, 13 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Stock and Lawford Smith are primarily notable as anti-trans activists. Stock is no longer a professor due to her views and is affiliated with an unaccredited alt-right "fake university" in Texas. Their publications in this field – outside their areas of expertise (such as fiction and aesthetics in Stock's case) – are not really academic sources or representative of mainstream scholarship in relevant fields – such as gender studies, sociology, etc. They are fringe voices in academia (or outside of academia in Stock's case), and their writings on this topic are primarily political/populist in nature. --Amanda A. Brant (talk) 19:24, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In my opinion, there is no neutral term for this concept. But academic works are split, and even GCFs themselves use "TERF" sometimes, so we definitely can't say "TERF" and "trans-exclusionary radical feminism" are only used by its opponents. That's not only not verifiable, it's just false. Loki (talk) 23:47, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is not established that the term is derogatory; in fact this is a slogan used by some TERFs. Many academic and media sources use the term descriptively. Quite a few TERFs refer to themselves as TERFs, or use the term interchangeably with gender-critical. For this movement, it seems every term used is subject to some disagreement – which includes "gender-critical feminism." Lack of universal support for a term – among the fringe group it describes – doesn't make it derogatory. An excellent comparison would be "white supremacist"; this term is not typically used by the white supremacists themselves; instead it is used as a descriptive term by scholars and others, and describes a real phenomenon, movement and ideology. The fact that many white supremacists would object to being called white supremacists doesn't make the term derogatory. Similarly, "trans-exclusionary" describes the real ideology of marginalizing trans women, particularly in the context of feminism; the other part of the term, radical feminism, is obviously not derogatory, it's what they call their ideology themselves. In fact, trans-exclusionary radical feminism/feminist is constructed as an even more neutral term than white supremacism/ist, so if anything, the term is less derogatory. --Amanda A. Brant (talk) 09:32, 13 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's also a matter of the lead reflecting the body. First of all, nowhere in the body does it say that "trans-exclusionary radical feminism" is exclusively or chiefly used by "opponents", and the only sentence even suggesting that is "Though it was created as a deliberately neutral descriptor, "TERF" is now typically considered derogatory."
If that were sufficient to summarize in the lead sentence, then for the lead to proportionally and WP:DULY reflect the body, the lead sentence would also need to summarize this paragraph:

Claire Thurlow noted that since the 2010s, there has been a shift in language from "TERF" to "gender critical feminism," which she described as "dog-whistle politics whereby the phrases act as a coded message of anti-transness to those initiated." Mauro Cabral Grinspan, Ilana Eloit, David Paternotte and Mieke Verloo argued that "we see the expression ‘gender-critical feminism’ – a self-definition by some individuals and groups labelled TERFs by others – as problematic because it serves specific actors to ‘rebrand’ their anti-trans activism and to legitimise their own positions."

PBZE (talk) 19:10, 13 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Removals from history

@Sweet6970, you just reverted my recent addition to history stating delete material which is not about g-c feminism – see WP:COATRACK.

The material was added from the SAGE Enclyopedia of Trans Studies' TERF entry, specifically it's section TERF activism which says The following is a timeline of TERF activism that proved structurally or culturally significant. And before the "TERF doesn't mean GC" argument gets pulled, the source is 110% explicit that Since Hungerford’s 2013 announcement, gender critical and radical feminist are the primary self-identities used by TERFs when publicly discussing the equality of trans people. It is obviously about g-c feminism, so please self-revert.

Relatedly, I believe you should self-revert this edit, where you changed Janice Raymond's The Transsexual Empire, published in 1979, purported to examine the role of transgender identity in reinforcing traditional gender stereotypes to ...examined the role... You're an experienced editor so I feel weird having to point out 1) that is absolutely not a claim that should go in wikivoice without reliable secondary sources agreeing and 2) there are no reliable secondary sources agreeing, it's cited to Raymond herself. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 17:52, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What do obscure lesbian paramilitaries in the 70s have to do with gender-critical feminism, a term coined around 2013?
The section this is taken from is a timeline of trans history. None of this is terribly relevant to the phenomenon of "gender-critical feminism" which emerged some 40 years later, about 5 years after TERF was coined. This is not a forum for listing every grievance against lesbians since time immemorial.
And the particular edit you point to is fine - it was editorialised. Void if removed (talk) 19:07, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, according to the source, they fall under TERF activism that proved structurally or culturally significant. Are you saying the gender-critical movement sprang into existence in 2013? You said the phenomenon of "gender-critical feminism" which emerged some 40 years later, about 5 years after TERF was coined - but that is not what the sources say at all. The sources say they're different names, not different concepts. This article already says that even...
Can you please explain why a timeline labelled TERF activism is actually a timeline of trans history.?
Also, my point about Janice Raymond still stands. 1) the role of transgender identity in reinforcing traditional gender stereotypes is absolutely not appropriate for wikivoice without secondary sourcing (it is her opinion trans identities do that, not a fact) and 2) there isn't secondary sourcing. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 19:18, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
a timeline of trans history
My mistake - it appears in multiple sections, I stopped at the first mention.
Even so I find it somewhat incoherent that a section which starts by stating TERF originated in 2008 then talks of "TERF activists" in 1973. Once again we find that TERF is a term used by critics indiscriminately, with little real regard for chronology or ideological specifics. The events mentioned are apparently structurally or culturally significant, but the author doesn't say how, why, to whom or in what way - its just some random events that have no bearing on gender-critical feminism. The leap from gender critical feminism, to TERf, to random events in the 70s is just further destroying any meaning of this page. Perhaps it has a place on Feminist views on transgender topics.
my point about Janice Raymond still stands
The changes was from "purported to examine the role of transgender identity in reinforcing traditional gender stereotypes" to "examines the role".
The use of "purported" implies the examination itself is false. This is editorialising and WP:POV. Void if removed (talk) 21:20, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
From the first paragraph of the entry: Popularized in 2008 by an online cisgender feminist community, TERF is an acronym for trans-exclusionary radical feminist. The community used the term to refer to the sex essentialist feminists who were flooding into their discussion space. TERFs asserted that “sex” was reducible to specific body attributes or to early socialization and therefore saw trans women as men and sought to remove them from “women’s spaces” and the lesbian feminist movement.
their section "Utility of TERF", they state The linguistic and cultural utility of TERF becomes apparent when one considers the reality that practically every contemporary anti-trans sex essentialist argument was originally asserted in Janice Raymond’s 1979 TERF classic, The Transsexual Empire.
TERF is an acronym for transgender exclusionary radical feminist, who sources agree prefer the term gender critical for themselves. Don't mistake a name for the emergence of whole new branch of feminism. Simple yes/no question: is the source referring to radical feminists who believed that trans women should be excluded from women's spaces? Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 22:16, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
TERF was coined in 2008, GCF in 2013. While battles between feminists and transsexualism date back at least to the 70s, neither of these terms make much sense prior to when they were coined, in the context of post-1990s theorising about sex and gender identity and conflicts over self-identification. "Gender-critical feminism" is one step on a timeline, and the terms are not interchangeable.
The problem is TERF is a derogatory term for anyone (mostly women, and especially lesbians) who don't think trans women are women. While the original targets were eg. Raymond and Jeffries, that isn't its sole meaning. Again: the OED confirms it has wider meaning. Applying it backwards to lesbians in the 70s not only makes no sense, but as presented this is applying a term of abuse retrospectively and whitewashing documented sexual harassment.
So in this instance, no, it is not referring to radical feminists - it is referring to lesbians. There are no named individuals with a recognisable ideology, simply "TERF activists". Sources are supposed to be WP:VERIFIABLE and the narrative presented here conflicts with what is documented elsewhere.
These are modern terms for modern conflicts.
And I'd add that since I've noticed that TERF Lesbians has also been added as a redirect here, it reinforces that some people consider lesbians who don't accept trans women as women to be TERFs.
I'm frankly astonished editors are still arguing this is a neutral term. Void if removed (talk) 09:39, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I basically agree with YFNS here and think something much like their edit should be reinstated, though I think the examples they added could be worded better so it's clear that the people in the examples were early anti-trans feminists and not just random women. Loki (talk) 19:41, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
YFNS: the material I deleted comprises inf about incidents in trans history. It tells us nothing about gender-critical feminism, which is the subject of this article. Sweet6970 (talk) 20:39, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Sweet6970: There is a rather large overlap between trans history and what we currently call gender-critical feminism or TERF activism, particularly with regards to the activists that are the topic of this article engaging in activities targeted against trans people. This is natural, given the subject matter. Reviewing the edit that YFNS linked above, the first paragraph seems to be content that fits within that expected overlap of what would now be called gender-critical or TERF activists targeting individual trans people and trans-inclusive organisations. The second paragraph likewise documents Janice Raymond's interventions towards restricting access to trans health care through public health insurance in the US.
If I've missed something obvious here, could you please detail which sentences are those which comprise information about incidents in trans history and are out of scope of this article? Otherwise I don't find your objection per COATRACK to be convincing. Sideswipe9th (talk) 21:13, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sideswipe, the point is that the material is not about g-c feminism. It is just anecdotes about (apparently) trans history. The Transgender article doesn’t say that J K Rowling has received death threats from trans supporters, nor does it say that g-c feminists have suffered discrimination. None of the material I removed has any place in this article. Sweet6970 (talk) 23:13, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
the point is that the material is not about g-c feminism Except that it is? I've got a copy of that encyclopaedia in front of me, and the content that YFNS added is explicitly in a section about structurally or culturally significant TERF activism, covering activities from 1973 through to 2019. Two pages after this in the same chapter details the transition in branding (for lack of a better term) by the activists who are the subject of this article from TERF to gender-critical. Though the names have changed over time, they are still fundamentally the same group of activists or feminists, whether they are called gender-critical, TERF, or some other term. Sideswipe9th (talk) 23:32, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t want to keep repeating myself. The material tells us nothing about g-c feminism, and you haven’t provided any argument that it does. Sweet6970 (talk) 23:52, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand how you believe this. Do you consider trans-exclusionary radical feminism to be wholly separate from gender-critical feminism? Do you believe that trans-exclusionary radical feminists only came into existence circa 2008 when Viv Smythe coined the term to describe them? Sideswipe9th (talk) 00:00, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Sideswipe9th: – you are entirely missing my point. The material tells us nothing about g-c feminism. If you want to dispute the point, please address it – what does the material tell us about g-c feminism? Sweet6970 (talk) 12:47, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Anything pre-2013 is already diluting the focus of this page. Anything pre-2008 makes very little sense, and the inclusion of Raymond and Greer really only serves as background to the establishment of the term "TERF".
Calling lesbian activists in 1973 "TERF activists" makes no sense whatsoever.
The page on Beth Elliott says she was accepted and served until late 1972 when accusations of sexual harassment from former friend, lesbian separatist, and feminist activist, Bev Jo Von Dohre, led to a decisive vote.. So this source contradicts the sources there.
I think this is a questionable source expressing completely unsubstantiated and ahistorical opinions, and trying to include it here is just going to derail an already derailed article further because what's stated here must be balanced by all the information on other articles that contradicts it, from much better sources. Void if removed (talk) 23:20, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Anything pre-2013 is already diluting the focus of this page. Anything pre-2008 makes very little sense It would be a monumental mistake to assume that the activists this article describes only came into existence in the mid-to-late 2000s. We know through academic and tertiary sources that this type of activism has been ongoing since since at least the early 1970s.
Calling lesbian activists in 1973 "TERF activists" makes no sense whatsoever. While it is true that the term TERF was only coined in 2008, the activists for whom that moniker described were clearly active long before that point. Whatever they may have called themselves, or been described as by others, would be of relevance to the terminology section.
So this source contradicts the sources there No, it doesn't. The mistake here is that our article on Beth Elliott is unclear as to when the 35 to 28 expulsion vote happened. The source in the citation for that sentence doesn't actually state when that vote took place. The Google Books preview for Joanne Meyerowitz' How Sex Changed: A History of Transsexuality in the United States implies that the vote took place in 1973, as that vote lead to the split of the Daughters of Bilitis, and it can be inferred that this was prior to April 1973, as that is when the West Coast Lesbian Conference occurred in LA.
The only thing that needs correcting here is our article on Elliott, for which we'd need to reanalyse the sourcing to figure out when the expulsion of Elliott from DoB occurred. Sideswipe9th (talk) 23:54, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just want to note I'd been fixing the Elliot article up right before you left this note and published just after. One of the sources there was a self-published website, but all the sources there (including that one) agreed she was kicked out for being trans in a vote on whether to allow trans women at all, none attribute the decision to the allegations of sexual harassment. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 00:06, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For the record, the section I'm quoting, TERF activism, says
  • TERF activists organized to expel Beth Elliott...,
  • A group of TERF activists calling themselves the Gutter Dykes physically attacked...,
  • TERF activists attempted to stop Rivera from speaking at the Christopher Street Liberation Day Parade,
  • TERF activists had long been opposed to Sandy Stone... A TERF organization named The Gorgons...,
  • Janice Raymond published what has become the manual for TERF advocacy, the book The Transsexual Empire: The Making of the She-Male.,
  • and In 1980, the congressionally mandated National Center for Health Care Technology (NCHCT) contracted Raymond to research the ethical nature of trans health care.
So it is triply explicit (through the section title, description of the section as a timeline of TERF activism, and explicit use of the term TERF activist) these are moments significant to TERF/GC history. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 22:29, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Because of the clear consensus on this talk page, Sweet's WP:IDHT notwithstanding, I've readded the material with "trans-exclusionary radical feminist" or similar wherever the source has it to make the connection explicit. Loki (talk) 01:33, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@LokiTheLiar: – you have also missed the point. If you want to dispute the point, please address it – what does the material tell us about g-c feminism? And please do not make unfounded accusations – I could say that those who refuse to address my point are engaging in IDHT – but I prefer to assume good faith, and assume that those who have not addressed my point have just missed it. Sweet6970 (talk) 12:49, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Trans-exclusionary radical feminism is gender-critical feminism, as we say in literally the first line of the article. Does that make it very clear? Loki (talk) 15:03, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Theres a 3/2 split here and clear ongoing disagreement. Accusing Sweet of WP:IDHT is uncalled for. Void if removed (talk) 10:06, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Your paraphrase is cumbersome and wholly inappropriate.
The author does not say "trans-exclusionary radical feminist" - they say "TERF". We've already established many times you can't just expand the acronym unless someone is using it very precisely, and this one is not.
In the same piece, the author argues:
While TERF, as a lexical unit, can carry unflattering overtones in the same way that bigot, misogynist, or racist might, it nonetheless constructs a much-needed way to disentangle the sometimes subjugative, violent, and even murderous anti-trans behavior and rhetoric of TERF activism from radical feminism itself
[...]
While the term TERF is critiqued as being antagonistic, it nonetheless fills a discursive void in that it concisely assigns a lexical identity to a set of ideas pioneered by the TERF movement, regardless of who makes use of these arguments. In this way, TERF can be used both to identify a specific morality-driven rhetorical tradition and to distinguish it from trans-inclusive traditions and movements.
The author is using TERF in a broad sense, and specifically because it is insulting and/or derogatory. It is very wrong to expand that terminology to the precise form where the author is not making this explicit, and is openly stating it has wider and derogatory usage.
In fact, the author even notes this:
Moreover, TERF is critiqued because its use is sometimes expanded, especially on social media sites, to refer to those who promote a TERF-style sex essentialist discourse, even if the anti-trans activist may not self-identify as being any type of feminist.
The author also notes that it is possible to be neutral, but they are choosing not to:
Some activists and academics do not use TERF, as they wish to avoid the possibility of a controversy that would detract from their arguments.
As a result, we have no idea who the supposed "TERF activists" they refer to are, or what their ideology is.
It all seems to be backwards reasoning, projecting modern terms onto past actions. The lesbians did not eject Beth Elliott because they were TERFs - but they are TERFs because they rejected Beth Elliott. Void if removed (talk) 11:58, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The idea that TERF might mean anything other than trans-exclusionary radical feminism seems extremely suspect to me, to say nothing of the assertion that "we've already established [this] many times". Loki (talk) 15:06, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Again, from the OED:
Also more generally: a person whose views on gender identity are (or are considered) hostile to transgender people, or who opposes social and political policies designed to be inclusive of transgender people.
I literally just quoted the source above, conceding this point:
its use is sometimes expanded, especially on social media sites, to refer to those who promote a TERF-style sex essentialist discourse, even if the anti-trans activist may not self-identify as being any type of feminist
And I gave 5 quotes higher up in this discussion with expanded meanings. Seriously, it is a disputed term, and an empty one, that basically just means "transphobe" at this stage.
When the (opinionated) source itself says TERF might actually not strictly mean "trans-exclusionary radical feminist", while at the same time applying it back in time to unidentified lesbian feminists some 35 years before the term was even coined, with no citations, I think you're on shaky ground thinking it can be simply expanded as "trans-exclusionary radical feminist" in wikivoice. Void if removed (talk) 16:01, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]


’purported to examine’

How about amending the wording to: … examined what she considered to be the role of transgender identity in reinforcing traditional gender stereotypes…? (proposed addition in bold) Sweet6970 (talk) 20:41, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That works perfectly; thank you! Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 22:00, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have now made this change. Sweet6970 (talk) 23:17, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Article scope

I've noticed that there are persistent disputes over what exactly this article covers (like if it covers anything before 2013/2008, and if it should include sources about "trans-exclusionary radical feminism" or exclusively sources about "gender-critical feminism"). Should there be an RFC to settle this issue once and for all? PBZE (talk) 01:09, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe. But RfC's are a large time investment for the community, and I think an important first step before an RfC would be to look at what secondary and tertiary reliable sources consider the scope of this topic to be. Do they draw a distinction between post-2013 activism versus 2008-2013 activism versus pre-2008 activism? Or do they consider it to be one consistent topic, that has changed names at least twice (ie TERF to gender-critical)? As in all things on Wikipedia, we should follow the sourcing for how they describe and frame this topic. Sideswipe9th (talk) 01:16, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm in full agreement that all the questions you've listed are important ones and the right ones to ask. Even so, we should probably establish an explicit consensus for them soon in some way, to avoid having the same rehashed arguments over and over again, like what's happening now. PBZE (talk) 04:07, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think answering those questions is how we can achieve an informed consensus on the article's scope. There's no point in holding an RfC until we have some sort of answer for those, because I strongly suspect the first question from an uninvolved editor will be "well what do RS say?"
If the sources are clear, then we wouldn't even need an RfC to resolve this issue, as we would be able to point to those sources for it. We have several very strong policy reasons like WP:V and WP:NPOV to support such a consensus even in the absence of an RfC. Conversely if the sources are unclear or undecided, then we could go to an RfC, using those same sources to inform the question and options for the survey. Sideswipe9th (talk) 04:23, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, we have multiple highly credible academic sources in this very article that very explicitly link the "TERF" and "gender-critical" terms together (some describing the latter as a rebranding of the former) and discuss history of the underlying ideology/movement going back to the 70s. To me that's pretty clear evidence for the scope of this article being broader, but that gets repeatedly called into question in this very talk page, so I hope for a way to better establish a consensus and put this dispute to an end. PBZE (talk) 07:05, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There's many articles where a basic fact about the topic gets frequently called into question. The ones that come to mind immediately as someone who spends a lot of time in trans-related articles are the first sentence of trans woman, Graham Linehan's status as an anti-trans activist, and also Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull's status as an anti-trans activist (and not a women's rights activist).
In one of these cases (trans woman), there was an RFC to determine the consensus. But in the case of KJKM and Linehan there wasn't, those are just based on talk page consensus. And if you look at the list of articles that use the special template on Linehan's talk page I'd guess you'd find most of them are based on talk page consensus. Loki (talk) 08:41, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
An issue with that is that the sources disagree quite profoundly, depending on which "side" they fall on.
Meanwhile arguments are being made here that "TERF" is not an insult (or if it is, it is deserved), that "gender critical feminism" is akin to racism, and therefore any sources that don't treat it with contempt are to be distrusted/excluded. Void if removed (talk) 10:34, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
TERF ideology is singularly focused on marginalizing and demonizing trans women, so in that sense the ideology is comparable to other ideologies that marginalize groups of people, particularly minorities. Above we discussed whether a term that describes such an ideology is inherently derogatory because some (but not all) of them object to the term. It seems to me that trans-exclusionary radical feminist (or TERF) treats TERFs with far more respect, and is much more "neutral" in nature, than comparable terms such as white supremacist. And there are many examples of TERFs using the term themselves. The radical feminist part of the term just refers to radical feminism and there is nothing derogatory about that; the trans-exclusionary part refers to their stated objective of excluding trans women from what they consider radical feminism/womanhood etc. Many academic and other reliable (media) sources use the TERF term descriptively. It doesn't really matter if all TERFs are comfortable with the term; most white supremacists don't describe themselves as white supremacists either. We do not require terms to enjoy universal support, even among fringe groups. --Amanda A. Brant (talk) 14:51, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
TERF ideology is singularly focused on marginalizing and demonizing trans women
Whatever it is that you think "TERF ideology" is, that is not an accurate description of gender critical feminism. If it were, it would not be protected in UK law. Such a belief would not be (as it goes) worthy of respect in a democratic society.
The constant claims that "TERF" is neutral are not reflected in academic sources like the one at the heart of this latest controversy, which concedes it is not neutral and makes a point of using it precisely because it isn't. There's a general confusion between "academic sources think it is neutral" and "some academic sources think they deserve it". Void if removed (talk) 15:45, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I mean, I don't know if we need an RFC to settle a question that is settled by the first sentence of the article. Loki (talk) 01:22, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The article's scope has been settled from the very beginning and there is no need to keep beating this dead horse. The article covers the ideology or movement that is now typically known as either trans-exclusionary radical feminism (TERF) or gender-critical feminism, with the terms being used interchangeably by academic and other sources to refer to the same thing. A topic is not based on the specific term – terms often change over time, and many topics are known under more than one name – but rather on a concept. This movement did not come into existence in the 2020s, it started out as an anti-trans fringe movement in radical feminism decades earlier and has roots dating back to the 1970s as many sources note, but the movement became much more prominent/notorious/visible in the 2020s, and the specific terms used today are relatively recent: There are barely results for "gender-critical feminism" in Google Scholar before 2020 or so, but many results for trans-exclusionary radical feminism/ist/ists or TERF in the decade prior to that, but that doesn't mean this entire belief system was created only just now. Of course anti-trans self-identified radical feminists had been around for much longer than the past 3–4 years. Adopting a new term didn't change that. --Amanda A. Brant (talk) 09:47, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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