User talk:Pnoble805

Hello, Pnoble805, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

• Introduction
• The five pillars of Wikipedia
• How to edit a page
• Help
• How to write a great article
• Manual of Style

Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and ask your question there. Again, welcome! Xiner (talk, email) 13:52, 10 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please add new correspondence to the end of this list

Haha, no problem. It's not even agreed by everyone that edit summaries are necessary, so don't worry about it. Personally, I've set my preferences to remind me when I've left out one, but to each their own.

As for "m" and "N" in the watchlist, they represent minor edits and new pages, respectively.

Feel free to message me if you've any questions. Xiner (talk, email) 13:52, 10 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This doesn't look right.

To be honest, messaging is the faster way to get me. Xiner (talk, email) 01:10, 11 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Date tags: Click on "last" on the history page to see what the bot did. Imitate it the next time you're adding such a tag. Xiner (talk, email) 13:02, 13 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You know, I was just thinking yesterday that this is kind of like an IRCop, except I don't know much about IRC! Brilliant minds think alike, maybe?

About cleanup tags, since every editor is roughly equal in status when editing articles, feel free to slap them on or take them off. I'd say that you might want to look into <ref name="Abe interview">...</ref>...<ref name="Abe interview" /> for citations that repeat. Would make the article look even better.

Good job getting the citations! Xiner (talk, email) 13:30, 15 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, you added Category:African American artists to the John Henry Faulk article. I'm not denying that he's African American, but this is the first I've heard of it. It isn't mentioned here, for example. Can you attribute this information some way? -- Gyrofrog (talk) 19:54, 16 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OK, thanks for the clarification. A bit of trivia, Pete Seeger is also on the list of Paul Robeson Award recipients. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 01:49, 17 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Pat. Sorry for the very late reply. It sounds like you did everything correctly. You can also try WP:ANI if you want someone to check your work. Try to included diffs so others can see exactly what edits you're talking about. If you can't figure out how to do the diffs, you can try the help desk. Xiner (talk) 19:40, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for the late reply, but I saw your message yesterday and gave the IP a 31-hour block. Let me or WP:AIV know if there's a problem again. Thanks. Xiner (talk) 01:52, 29 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We live in a small world. IP 66.211.223.200 (even though WHOIS says it for Softek Inc.) is for my school, Mercyhurst Prep. I found this out last Friday when I went to log on during my study hall period & saw the notice for a message for the anonymous users on the computer. It turns out that it was a notice for my vandalism warning. —​​​​Dtbohrer​​​​^{talk•contribs} 21:04, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Would you agree that I-79 should not be a part of WikiProject Erie because of the fact that I-79 could be a part many WikiProjects (for example Wikiproject Pittsburgh). I want to avoid an edit war, so I'm getting another opinion before I decide what I going to do next. I saw your decision on Plastics Industry to remove the tag so I'm hoping you could help. Take a look here and tell me your opinion. Thanks --​​​​Dtbohrer​​​​^{talk•contribs} 22:33, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm considering adding Category:Erie County, Pennsylvania to track the changes and show that it is a part of Erie but I still feel I-79 is too big to be in the scope and responsiblity of WikiProject Erie. Erie is only a terminus of it. See how many interstates are part of a city WikiProject. I don't think they're are very few, if any. --​​​​Dtbohrer​​​​^{talk•contribs} 23:12, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you look, a lot the highways that city wikiprojects have tagged are three-digit highways (which are used to "designate spur or loop routes branching from either the primary route or one of its other auxiliary routes"). Hypothetically, if the bayfront connector was ever labeled I-379, or something to that effect, then I would personally put an Erie tag on its page. State routes in Erie should have Erie tags, I just haven't taking the time to find and label them. --​​​​Dtbohrer​​​​^{talk•contribs} 12:28, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You had mentioned something about a category that you wanted something similar to be in WP:Erie. If you could possibly elaborated on that please, I should be able to do it. --​​​​Dtbohrer​​​​^{talk•contribs} 20:58, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for uploading Image:Burdetterie.jpg. Wikipedia gets thousands of images uploaded every day, and in order to verify that the images can be legally used on Wikipedia, the source and copyright status must be indicated. Images need to have an image tag applied to the image description page indicating the copyright status of the image. This uniform and easy-to-understand method of indicating the license status allows potential re-users of the images to know what they are allowed to do with the images.

For more information on using images, see the following pages:

• Wikipedia:Image use policy
• Wikipedia:Image copyright tags

This is an automated notice by OrphanBot. If you need help on selecting a tag to use, or in adding the tag to the image description, feel free to post a message at Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. 03:05, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Hello. You might want to read up on Wikipedia:Manual of Style (text formatting)#Boldface. I'm not trying to be mean or anything (=]), but it would make the articles you create more professional looking. You can use bold words sparingly, but mostly just in the first sentence. (i.e. Poop is brown) and anyway, nice job with the park articles! --trey 18:22, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No offense taken. I've been wrestling with what to do with proper names that don't have an internal link. The list of parks article doesn't lend itself to a table format because there is too much text, so I've been bulleting and bolding. I welcome your comments and suggestions. I just want to make as much of Erie available on Wiki as possible. I'll review your bold suggestions, as it were. :-) --Pat 22:20, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We need a photo of Erie's skyline that can be licensed into the public domain. This image issue will keep the FA from passing. Go over to preqsue isle a few miles out (near the middle), look for a parking lot (there are many), and snap a few photos from across the bay. Thanks, --trey 21:26, 23 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That picture is like amazingly good! =) You are a very good photographer, It portrays Erie alot nicer than the old cloudy, un-free one. Thanks so much! --trey 01:23, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I love the new skyline photo. The page actually looks a whole lot more brighter. I think I'm going to nominate it for featured picture. --​​​​Dtbohrer​​​​^{talk•contribs} 02:39, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm so pleased that you like the pic. Making me go to Presque Isle for a photo shoot on such a wonderful day was no burden. I was at the boat launch without a boat, however, and I got some strange looks. 8-| I'm used to it, though. --Pat 02:58, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Its a candidate now. You can see its nomination here. --​​​​Dtbohrer​​​​^{talk•contribs} 03:13, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Would you mind snapping a few photos of LECOM? Its by west grandview and 79. This image is now in question on the FAC. You many image contributions are very appreciated.--trey 17:37, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm I think Im going to send you all over the city =)! The image of the Erie times news is now in question too. If you dont mind, take a few of the Times Publishing building downtown? Not sure quite where that is, but you could also take one of WSEE (state and 12th maybe?), or Jet-TV or Fox 66 in summit past 90 by the honda store. I think the media section needs an image. Thanks SO much. --trey 17:39, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

ENT is on 12th Street near Sassafras, across the street from a big firehouse. It was one of my first stops when I got to Erie. They have a webcam mounted in an office window that shows downtown Erie to the world. I went and stood in front of the webcam to prove I had arrived! A sad tale, but true, as they say. I'll take shots of LECOM, ETN, and WSEE. I'm not sure about the other media shots. I was thinking a photo of Erie Insurance Group, on W 6th St, might be useful too. I'm glad you like the pics. My skyline pic didn't impress the experts, I'm afraid. Maybe I'll have to get a more pricey camera? Maybe the city will sponsor me? ;-) --Pat 22:12, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Good Luck, It's supposed to rain Wednesday & Thursday. I'd help with the photo taking but my digital camera broke. I have to send it back to the factory to have it fixed. I'm old-fashioned because sometimes I still take photos with a film camera (but then it takes weeks for the photos to come back). By the way where on the internet is the Erie Times News webcam? --​​​​Dtbohrer​​​​^{talk•contribs} 00:51, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The more photos the better xD. If you are around the civic center or ballpark, take a few of those too. I'm not sure the user questioning the images will be satisfied with the Uht picture now. I have a 3 megabit camera so I probably shan't take any with its horrible resolution. --trey 04:38, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. Thanks for your note. I don't have any info on the Orthodox community in Erie, sorry. I am curious about whether this footnote amounts to original research (WP:NOR) on Temple Anshe Hesed -- "According to an Erie street map dated circa 2003, this entire block is part of Gannon University, but a personal visit to the site revealed privately owned apartment buildings." Ciao. HG | Talk 02:33, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's why I put it in a footnote instead of the article itself. I was hoping it would lead to a revelation from someone who knew where the body was buried. It isn't too much of an "original research", since the cross streets are given in the Bates book I cited. Which particular house on the block is the only question. The matter can be resolved at city hall. My next step. --Pat 03:40, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi again. I don't want to annoy you, since you are obviously intending to do useful work here. Still, when an informational claim needs to be researched at city hall, then it's heading further into original research. Really, I applaud your curiosity and willingness to nail down the truth, but it doesn't happen to be needed or suitable for an encyclopedia. (Note: This concern with WP:NOR is not at all like a worry that you don't have your facts right or you aren't citing real data, it's merely a judgment call on what constitutes research.) With a friendly adieu, HG | Talk 12:18, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. If you copy text from another source, such as the first sentence, you should put it in quotation marks. (See WP:Cite under When you quote someone) If you can later substantially edit such sentences into encyclopedia style, the quote marks can be removed. Please add quotation marks to other sentences in this article where needed. Thanks! HG | Talk 12:47, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have any particular interest in the Order of Heptasophs?00:54, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Hello there!

I'm writing to inform you that we are now forming the first local Wikimedia Chapter in the United States: Wikimedia Pennsylvania. Our goals are to perform outreach and fundraising activities on behalf of the various Wikimedia projects. If you're interested in being a part of the chapter, or just want to know more, you can:

• Contact us on IRC at #wikimedia-pa
• Join our mailing list
• Visit our blog at http://wmfpa.blogspot.com

Thanks and I hope you join up! Cbrown1023 talk 04:13, 9 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The biggest reason I had for numbering the mayors was because I added an infobox to Louis Tullio and needed to know the number of mayor he was (i.e. I've come with that he was the 43^rd mayor of Erie), but I kept losing count. If for some reason there is a missing mayor, I'll change the numbering when he's discovered. Perhaps you should talk to someone at the Blasco Library. They might know where there is a list.

Nice article, I'm going to find some wikiprojects that it falls under to put this article on the "radar" so to speak. I think you should mention the Lake Erie Basin in other the articles as only one article has a link for it. --​​​​D​​tbohrer​​​​^{talk•contribs} 14:48, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for that info. I have photos of my family at "Matavan [sic] Beach", and was wondering which bayside beach that was now. Aberdeen has a public beach and a marina, right next to Tom's Restaurant. The lot for it is right on route 35. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 22:08, 10 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This would be a reference to Cliffwood Beach, which was developed as a resort town on the Raritan Bay in the mid 1920s. There was a large saltwater pool, a boardwalk, a casino, etc. I live a stone's throw from the waterfront. The pool and boardwalk were destroyed in a hurricane in about 1960. Cliffwood Beach is a sub-division of Aberdeen Township, which was Matawan Township until the 1970s. Matawan Township was once called Matavan. I've never seen reference to Matavan Beach and I've seen many local histories.

I was going to ask if anyone here had run across the name Chemical Warfare Division? A local Matawan Twp resident named Charles A Kaleda died in Italy while serving with the Chemical Warfare Division, per issues of The Matawan Journal. He was inducted into the US Army on 1 Apr 1943, was trained at Camp Wheeler, Georgia, and Texas, and was sent overseas in August 1943. He served in North Africa and Sicily and was transferred to Italy, where he died. A Google search for "Camp Wheeler" "Chemical Warfare Division" yields several pages of hits. Is that a distinct name for the service? Pnoble805 (talk)

Another user has proposed to have the List of Burgesses of Erie, Pennsylvania merged into the List of mayors of Erie, Pennsylvania. His rationale is here. I personally see no problem, but I figured I'd get another opinion. --​​​​D​​tbohrer​​​​^{talk•contribs} 20:01, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you look at it from a housekeeping standpoint, if every detail was kept in article after it no longer applies (like when Delta stopped flying to Erie), the article could become incredibly long and filled with stuff the average Joe isn't going to care about. But I do agree that the information shouldn't be thrown out and forgotten. Perhaps you should see about starting a WikiArchive. --​​​​D​​tbohrer​​​​^{talk•contribs} 23:34, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

	<font=3> Thanks for all your edits to the article - Presque Isle State Park made featured article today! Ruhrfisch ><>°° 16:29, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Saw your new article on Charles Curtze. Have you thought of nominating it to appear in the Did You Know section on the Main Page? --​​​​D​​tbohrer​​​​^{talk•contribs} 19:03, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it will be rejected. There doesn't appear to be anything in the article that will cause it to be automatically disqualified (i.e. length, creation date). My first dyk (for Bishop Trautman) was constantly reworded, either by me or other editors. In fact as I wrote this, someone already took your suggestion and came up with two hooks. --​​​​D​​tbohrer​​​​^{talk•contribs} 22:41, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Did you know? was updated. On 2 January, 2008, a fact from the article Charles A. Curtze, which you recently created or substantially expanded and nominated, was featured in that section on the Main Page. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Congratulations! · AndonicO ^Talk 20:46, 2 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Congrats on first DYK! --​​​​D​​tbohrer​​​​^{talk•contribs} 20:52, 2 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure if you saw it, here is the link. --​​​​D​​tbohrer​​​​^{talk•contribs} 03:15, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting.... I've heard of the show, never thought it had orgins in Erie, though. Maybe something will let by. One editor has already edited the article but on another section, so maybe no one is going to dispute it. I'm finishing an article on former Erie mayor Miles B. Kitts in my sandbox. Now I'm up in the middle of night being awaken by the winds and (ever the meteorologist) had to go see what kind of warnings were in effect. --​​​​D​​tbohrer​​​​^{talk•contribs} 08:45, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nice article, I added an Erie tag (as well as a PA and NY tag). Since the tracks also run through Erie County, there shouldn't be a problem, but if there is a uproar, it can be easily removed. Maybe you should think about uploading an image from this site (the route map from 1900 [I'm going to try an create a modern route map from the official WYNP website, though], a rail pass from the 1890's or a photo of one of locomotives used by WYNP). They should be all out of copyright because they're from the late 1800's and early 1900's. --​​​​D​​tbohrer​​​​^{talk•contribs} 07:12, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you have no objections, I was going nominate WNYP for DYK. I was thinking of something along the lines of:

• ...that the Western New York and Pennsylvania Railroad bought 41½ miles (66.8 km) of track between Meadville and Corry, Pennsylvania for $1?

Feel free to change it anyway you see fit. --​​​​D​​tbohrer​​​​^{talk•contribs} 03:45, 29 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good luck. Congressman aren't my cup of tea. Too many of them and I would get overwhelmed and give up. --​​​​D​​tbohrer​​​​^{talk•contribs} 04:07, 29 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

From what I gathered from the introduction, I think you should go a different direction and go with "United States Representives" (an example of it in use already: List of United States Representatives from Vermont). Question...Some of the people in the list don't seem to have represented Erie. Example: Thomas Wilson was from Erie, but he was elected from the 15th congressional district (near New Jersey). Wouldn't he have represented the people from that district?

Moving pages is relativly easy. Just click the tab at the top of the page labeled move. For more information you can take a look at WP:MOVE. --​​​​D​​tbohrer​​​​^{talk•contribs} 04:29, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Don't you just love gerrymandering and how it makes political history so confusing. If you get a chance (or I might if I'm bored), you should put the congressmen in table format like the actual district articles (i.e. with Party shading. --​​​​D​​tbohrer​​​​^{talk•contribs} 17:17, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

On 1 February, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Western New York and Pennsylvania Railroad, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

--Royalbroil 13:44, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Congrats, if you read this after it was taken off the main page, the link is here. --​​​​D​​tbohrer​​​​^{talk•contribs} 17:17, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

if you undid yacht club category, you are mistaken I can guarantee you a a graduate we have a yacht club.--Billymac00 (talk) 05:40, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nice job on another new article. Did most of the information come from his obituary in the New York Times? --​​​​D​​tbohrer​​​​^{talk•contribs} 21:14, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Who else did you get info on? Also, do you happen to have the ISBN number for the book? --​​​​D​​tbohrer​​​​^{talk•contribs} 03:21, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It would be nice to get more article made for former Erie mayors. This doesn't have to anything but I found this website that shows you how many times an article was viewed in the last two months. One intriguing result I ran across was for the Kinzua Bridge (which I wrote). Notice how the number of views jumps on January 21. A History Channel special premiered that night, which happened to mention the bridge. It's kinda cool to plug in pages you're familar with and see how many other people viewed it. --​​​​D​​tbohrer​​​​^{talk•contribs} 21:43, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

{{helpme}}

I think the Central Jersey article is unbalanced with an odd balance. I posted an objection on the talk page and added the appropriate dispute template at the top of the article, which was promptly removed with criticisms of my position. It is my understanding that the dispute is supposed to remain in effect for a period of time and not be removed before discussion has taken place. I particularly object to the question of whether Central Jersey even exists and the faux presentation of all the facts. It seems skewed and would like to see the discussion re-opened. I can't reply immediately, but thanks for visiting. --Pat (talk) 03:02, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The helpme template is not suppose to be used to attract attention to an issue. Use one of the {{RFCtemplate}}s instead. Mønobi 04:49, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

On 18 February, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Prescott Metcalf, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

--BorgQueen (talk) 17:31, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Writing a "U.S. Route 20 in Pennsylvania" will give something to do over spring break and I'll be back in Erie.

From what I gather, the people at WP:USRD might be phasing the templates/macroes that standarized the exit lists for a simple table. I probably will change the list to a table and then have the person who marked it as needing attention to see if the list is up to standards. --​​​​D​​tbohrer​​​​^{talk•contribs} 16:45, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's just across the county line. I'd say be bold and put it up. If any one compains it can be reverted easily. --​​​​D​​tbohrer​​​​^{talk•contribs} 20:58, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

These are discussed, at length, in intelligence cycle management and intelligence collection management, including military and civilian as well as US and NATO. Howard C. Berkowitz (talk) 17:51, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid I don't really know how to make these articles much smaller; as it is, I left out a lot of detail. More with the CIA-specific article, there was a lot of complaining about having 10 or so articles, and keeping things current and wikilinked is a challenge.

As far as HUMINT, I did break it down, but I believe that the techniques are absolutely critical to understanding current events, be they Abu Ghraib, Russian poisoning, rendition, etc. Wikiversity just does not interest me as a form of publishing; I've written textbooks before, and if I do it again, I'll do it -- possibly free -- but on my own site. Increasingly, I'm disillusioned by the Wikipedia model of anonymous collaboration; I have dropped out of the Computer Networking Project, as I became very tired of having to argue with the incorrect edits, every few weeks, of newbies -- that would tell me that my peer-reviewed standards-related explanations were wrong because his textbook says so -- never mind that the primary sources flatly contradict the textbook. Howard C. Berkowitz (talk) 22:55, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ah...but you see, I'm perfectly happy to have edits only from people who don't find the topic detailed and boring. Indeed, there was some fairly detailed discussion on these, more in talk pages and email, partially with concern about getting into areas that legitimately are not public.

Frankly, I am puzzled by the notion that encyclopedic articles necessarily are accessible to the layman. In some areas, no one suggests this. In the last couple of days, I've had to check some things in analytical organic chemistry, and, while I found what I needed, I can't imagine how someone with less than several years of college chemistry could make sense of the topic. In like manner, it would be silly to assume an article on moderately advanced mathematics will be accessible. There's an old British saying, though, that while it's recognized that it takes skill and experience to command a warship, any fool thinks he can command a regiment in battle.

I look at some respected paper encyclopedias -- Britannica, Americana, etc., and discover authors written by Nobel Prize winners. Howard Morland, in The Secret that Exploded, got several key insights into the design principles of thermonuclear weapons from drawings in Americana. So, the idea that "secondary sources" are preferred strikes me as more and more absurd.

Don't get me wrong -- I've done collaborative writing for years, and enjoyed it. More and more, however, I am reluctant to take part in collaborative projects with anonymity, or at least that I can't see enough of someone's work to have a sense they know what they are talking about. This is one of the reasons I have zero interest in writing for Wikiversity; it's bad enough in Wikipedia. When a peer reviewer gives me feedback, it's detailed, not "needs to be more encyclopedic" or "needs to be improved to meet Wikipedia standards".

Respectfully, I think it's more likely I will give up on Wikipedia than modify my own standards of quality to write in the manner some here seem to expect. That's not a dig at you; it's more the random flamers, or the people that put article-wide tags right at the beginning of an article, with no explanation of what they want improved. It's not a question of "finding the right level" for Wikipedia in a field where I have professional experience: it is my profession's level that will be met rather than Wikipedia's. If there is a GFDL-compatible project that doesn't allow anonymous editing -- and that can be verified pseudonyms -- I'm gone from here.

I believe professionals have a responsibility to their mentors to "pay it forward", which is the main reason I do anything here. Paying it forward, however, to me implies a certain level of rigorous writing, which may or may not be accessible, and I'm increasingly dubious that quality can be maintained in Wikipedia, other than in subjects that may seem dull and boring. Howard C. Berkowitz (talk) 03:28, 19 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting that you mention counter-intelligence as a specialty, as that's one of the articles that had the most collaboration. In particular, several people struggled with a better definition of OPSEC, and, in turn where the countermeasures against other kinds of threats (e.g., anti-SIGINT, anti-IMINT) belonged. I read some of the more recent NCIX documents to think that the official position was now that almost everything came under OPSEC, where others working with it said that the actual guidance -- unfortunately not in anything that could be sourced -- was much more clear.

Some of that article goes back to earlier military surces. An example was counterintelligence source force protection. The current manual that explains it, and even its definition, but earlier versions of counterintelligence manuals contain a quite usable definition.

There are very difficult policy issues in how much of the general principles -- obviously, true sources and methods are different -- should be classified. It's not a subject that large numbers of people examine in detail, but here and there, a journalist or academic tries to analyze an issue, which can only happen when there is a broadly agreed-to conceptual models and set of definitions.

Where nonspecialist input/edits help the most in the entire range of intelligence articles is recognizing when a term is being used in a specialized way that is not obvious. "Witting" is one such term of art. Articles that touch on HUMINT have to get across that not every source is a "spy".

The more technical areas, such as SIGINT and MASINT are different challenges. I try to keep track of new edits, but I miss some, and was told of things that simply had gotten unreadable, and where text needed to be deleted and better explanations given. In those areas, however, it often gets to a point where to go any deeper requires an engineering knowledge of electronics, physics, etc. I happen to be doing some consulting related to ordinary automobile radar detectors, which is making me go back and look at propagation characteristics, the actual detectors (this project is concerned not so much with the detector, but being smarter about using what it reports), etc.

I don't know how to address making something like MASINT more accessible, without quickly getting technical, other than at the level of "Big magic. Gods have ways of knowing things that mortals using SIGINT alone cannot tell." :-)

Howard C. Berkowitz (talk) 15:58, 19 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It strikes me that MASINT, while a fairly exotic topic, is perhaps most cleanly at the level you describe as familiarization rather than how-to. That may be due to there being so little information available, and the mechanisms requiring so much technical backgroun, that the people that want to go deeper know how to do so, even without classified sources. For example, in electro-optical MASINT#Spectroscopic MASINT, there actually is a good deal of open-source material about the significant wavelengths for various purposes, but I didn't feel it necessary even to cite some of that material. Realistically, to get into that material, one needs to have gone through unclassified engineering such as remote viewing for earth resources. While the sequence of events went backwards, I wound up using MASINT drawings and such to explain things related to commercial tuna fishing (water surface temperature, as well as some other ocean spectra, are critical).

SIGINT, on the other hand, has the problem/challenge of having actual examples, which, for size reasons, I split into a separate history article, which is too long now and probably itself needs to split. Unfortunately, pure size considerations mean that very few examples can go into the main SIGINT article, and that has caused some complaints. I find it especially frustrating when someone puts in a section- or article-level tag that says things are hard to understand, but gives absolutely no specifics about what is confusing. Howard C. Berkowitz (talk) 17:32, 19 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The reason MASINT is in the subsection titles is to disambiguate it for external wikilinking. For example, while the main discussion of counterbattery detectors is in geophysical MASINT, the more recent technology also includes electro-optical MASINT, and both now link to the cueing section in the main MASINT article.

"section on spectroscopy could have subsections on hyperspectroscopy and multispectroscopy". It does. There is no section on ultraspectroscopy since that is a research level. The applications are under hyperspectroscopy because that is the technology that enables them, although I'll grant that the first deployed system was a multispectroscopic sensor on the U-2.

A significant number of people complained when there were the navigation boxes alone in intelligence articles, without "see also". Part of the problem, IMHO, is that a navigation box at the end of the article is less useful than one near the top, the latter establishing there are subarticles. The consensus, however, seemed to be that navigation boxes belong at the end.

I don't disagree that a COMINT article could be set up, but I have been hesitant to do that until there is enough material for a free-standing ELINT article. The U.S. military, I believe, confuses things by giving too much priority to FISINT, which is primarily a subset of COMINT. Howard C. Berkowitz (talk) 18:28, 19 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've deleted it (I'm an admin so I can do that). You can tag pages you created for deletion using {{db-g7}} and an admin will come along and delete it for you. Hut 8.5 17:39, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your past contributions to the article Central Jersey. I've placed a proposal on the article's talk page to remove the claims that there is controversy over whether the Raritan Valley in New Jersey exists. Please visit the page and register your support or opposition for the proposal. Thanks. --Bryan H Bell (talk) 04:46, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I noticed your comment at WikiProject Classroom coordination. As I said there, that project is rather moribund. I have some advice here on ensuring classroom assignments go well, and I hope to formulate a more detailed set of recommendations here. I've added the "Educational Assignment" tag to your students' articles. I do think that setting up a separate WikiProject to coordinate such initiatives is a good idea. But the articles your students have produced seem pretty good, although I note that several of them are uncategorized, and so rather unintegrated in into the Wikipedia. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 01:24, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ach, I note that you're not the instructor, but one of the students: is that right? Does the instructor not have an account? --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 01:26, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm the teacher's Wiki adviser and a former student of his. I imagine he might have a Wiki account but I am unaware of the name. I'll send him a note by email and direct him to this page. I appreciate your marking the articles. How do they get associated with their particular WikiProject? Do we have to augment the tags you just added or make new ones? --Pat (talk) 01:31, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Those tags don't associate the pages with any project other than the general Category:Wikipedia articles as assignments. It's probably a good idea to sign any project up at Wikipedia:School and university projects, but more for historical record-keeping than anything else; you won't get much help there, either. If you were to set up a Wikiproject, you could construct your own Wikibanner. This is what I did with Template:MuMaMa, which I customized for each page; see from instance Talk:Mario_Vargas_Llosa. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 01:42, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Can you refer me to a page that provides guidance on how to create a Wikibanner? Sounds like a fun idea. I've never gotten much into making maps, creating infoboxes, and so forth. I'm more of a content and research guy. I dabble a bit in images, but that's it. --Pat (talk) 01:48, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Heh. It's a bit of a nightmare. I adapted the {{EducationalAssignment}} banner, but others had to some in and mend what I'd broken from time to time. You can see the travails I went through here. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 01:52, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Pat, I can understand anyonewalking away from such a situation. I'm just an editor passing by and have no great interest in the article or in editing in such a situation. If at some stage in the future you feel excited by the possibility of exploring Wikipedia's dispute resolution proceedures about Central Jersey please let me know and maybe we can work together to explore how Wikipedia deals with such a situation. SmithBlue (talk) 00:34, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I started the Vincent bio in my sandbox below Dobbins. You're welcome to add more information. You wouldn't happen to be able to get a list of Vincent's works? Or maybe the date of when he graduated from Oberlin? --​​​​D.B.^{talk•contribs} 14:48, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was able to get the obit from the New York Times. Also, there is a "Henry B. Vincent" mentioned a year earlier in the NY Times as the director of a theatre in "Point Chautauqua". Google Books also lists an "oratorio" written by a "Henry Bethuel Vincent".

Unrelated but, you wouldn't happen to have any information on Daniel Dobbins possibly? --​​​​D.B.^{talk•contribs} 00:03, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the info. I didn't think to look in Nelson's. You didn't happen to run across a good portrait of Dobbins by any change (all the ones I can find are too small or aren't good quality)? --​​​​D.B.^{talk•contribs} 16:52, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The portrait from find-a-grave appears to have been scanned from a book, which means its in a book somewhere and just has to be found. That or I'll just go to the Maritime Museum (they, of all places, should have a portrait of Dobbins). --​​​​D.B.^{talk•contribs} 16:37, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you happen to have the time, you don't suppose you could see if you could find any information on a Henry Colton of Tioga County, Pennsylvania. Colton Point State Park was named for him. I ask on the behalf of two editors (Dincher and Ruhrfisch) who have been systematically bringing PA state park articles up to FA (they helped with Presque Isle). You seem to always find useful info and I know it would help them out a lot.

By the way I found a good image of Dobbins in a book. --​​​​D.B.^{talk•contribs} 03:21, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks so much for the information! Dincher (talk) 23:57, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, thank you very much! This will be very helpful and is more than any of the otherwise useful sources have on him! I don't suppose you could find the birth date for Maurice K. Goddard? He was born in 1912 in Lowell, Massachusetts and there is a PA state park named for him too. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 01:27, 26 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I found the Maurice K. Goddard birth date for you plus a few other items of possible interest. I put them on Goddard's discussion page. I couldn't find anything about Goddard's military record, which I found a bit troubling. No doubt it is true, but someone ought to do due diligence and seek confirmation through official channels because these environmental sites are perpetuating this story and Wiki ought not to go along for the ride. If you need a recent US DOB or DOD, try the Social Security Death Index. Be sure to take advantage of the advanced search, but limit the fields you enter to be sure to get a good result. --Pat (talk) 05:06, 26 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Pat, we want to put a note about Henry Colton into the Colton Point State Park article, but need the references for the 1860, 1870, and 1880 censuses. Would you be able to provide those refs? I also plan to check the Williamsport newpaper archives for his obituary published there (assumning it was). Thanks in advance, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 01:48, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Per your comment about a disclaimer, at WP:AN there is a discussion as to whether it is permissible to have a template warning readers not to rely on the hurricane article for operational decisions. Edison2 (talk) 05:28, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

	<font=3> Thanks for all of your help with sources and information on Henry Colton - Colton Point State Park is now a featured article! Ruhrfisch ><>°° 01:50, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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