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Understood, but that's a promotional and commercial site, evidently trying to broaden its market. If a WP:SCIRS review were to expand the analysis, we can reconsider. But let's be clear: there is no existing science, and there is zero chance of a scientific analysis, to prove longevity or better health in a Blue Zone location. As it stands, the article is borderline WP:PROMO and could be warned/deleted as an advertisement. Zefr (talk) 22:25, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Seems like it makes sense to add, since it's getting at least as much coverage in RS as any of the other blue zones. Here's the Telegraph source. I don't think this needs an exceptional amount of sourcing, since it's clear in this article what the blue zone concept is, and its limitations. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 22:31, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe it is useful to distinguish between the initial set in the scholarly work by Michel Poulain, Anne Herm and Gianni Pes (whatever its flaws may also be) and subsequent additions, generally appearing in work by Dan Buettner and Blue Zones LCC. Note, however, that Poulain and Pes are apparently founders of Blue Zones Institutes (https://www.bluezones.com/founders-statement/), part of Blue Zones LCC, though I guess current involvement is not yet clear to me. Theswampman (talk) 16:15, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe, but for right now, the sources are apparently not making these distinctions, and are referring to Buettner's Singapore addition as a "new Blue Zone". This doesn't seem like a controversial addition to me, just adding a new thing to a defined group of things, as reported by RS. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 00:40, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ig Nobel award
This edit was reverted because it is not a reliable source meeting WP:BMI, and its message is redundant with what already exists under the Critiques section.
The Ig Nobel committee is not making fun of the researcher, but of the blue zones concept. The fact the researcher has won a globally-covered award ridiculing the blue zone idea proposed here is directly relevant to the blue zone wikipedia page, in the same way that e.g. the Blue Zones owner Dr Mehmet Oz has his three Pigasus awards for misinformation in science on his bio page.
It is appropriate to publish globally recognized criticism, which has been handed out by a Nobel prize winner. I don't know what is difficult about this for the wikipedia edits team, but if the ridicule of an established idea is sufficiently well received it wins a global award, that criticism should be seen on wikipedia. 2601:182:D000:C640:8C36:AA3D:EA4B:4A44 (talk) 14:09, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please see the note under 'pyrrho the skipper', and also please consider that the critiques are not redundant with those already stated: the paper is dozens of pages long and raises a huge number of points that are neither addressed by the blue zones proponents nor other (usually later) critics of the concept.
I again point you to the fact that notable awards raising awareness of msinformation in science, such as the Pigasus awards given to Blue Zones LLC owner Dr Oz, are typical and acceptable fare for citations on wikipedia. Please leave these edits up, thank you, as the curtailing of criticism here has gone on far too long. 2601:182:D000:C640:8C36:AA3D:EA4B:4A44 (talk) 14:13, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No. The Ig Noble Prize is given for research which is funny or unobvious, not because it has withstood scientific scrutiny. The first Ig Nobles went to the guy who kept trying to prove homeopathy, the inventor of the junk bond, the guy who promoted fake evidence of space aliens in ancient civilizations, and you get the idea.
So if Newman has a reliable critique, one would cite Newman's papers directly, or secondary sources which referred to Newman's papers. Using Google Scholar to search for papers by Saul Newman containing the word "centenarian" I find three, including the one in question. All three are unpublished preprints, they come with warnings they are not peer reviewed. So even if Newman is right, the reliable sourcing not wonderful. -- M.boli (talk) 16:58, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Those critiques were given to people who were the butt of the joke. Now, Ig Nobels are given to people making the joke. The shift is pretty clear, especially in the change of the wording of the prize (from about 15 years ago) to supporting funny science. Also pretty clear is the attempt at evading the core critique I raised here.
That is, given other international prizes critical of other pseudoscience concepts are fairly and routinely cited as critiques on wikipedia, such as Blue Zone owner Dr Oz's three Pigasus awards in pseudoscience, why is this award gate-kept and excluded form this page?
This year's Ig Noble Peace Prize to B.F. Skinner for pigeon-guided munitions is duly mentioned in the Project Pigeon article. But not to validate pigeon-guided munitions as contributing to world peace.
It may be that Newman has a valid critique. It would be helpful if there were either peer-reviewed published articles or secondary sources which validate Newman's work. I searched Newman's non-published papers in Google Scholar in part to see if citations to his work might lead to other properly published papers debunking blue zones.
Failing that, it might be possible to cite and describe Newman's critique, but I prefer leave that decision to more experienced editors in this area.
But citing the Ig Noble thingie as validating the correctness of Newman's work is nonsense. And Dr. Oz being recognized for pseudoscience seems utterly irrelevant. -- M.boli (talk) 14:06, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's not irrelevant. The Blue Zones owner received three awards for pseudoscience, which are less-well-known than the one awarded here. These awards are cited on wikipedia. Why is the Ig Nobel, rewarding the ridiculing of Blue Zones as a concept and vitally - awarded by a panel dominantly composed of Nobel laureates - not valid?
To be clear, Dr Oz is the owner of Blue Zones LLC. There is a direct equivalence between these awards being cited on his page and the Ig Nobel being cited here. What is stopping the citation of this criticism? How widely acknowledged does criticism have to be? Are Moungi Bawendi or Esther Duflo not a 'trustworthy' source to you? Seriously? 82.6.50.239 (talk) 18:43, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The paper by Saul Justin Newman was not properly peer-reviewed [1]. I have read his paper and it is good. According to Newman himself he was turned down by multiple journals so he couldn't publish his paper, he promoted some kind of conspiracy that he was being censored. I find this unlikely. He just seems to be lazy with the peer-review process. He could easily find a valid journal to publish his paper. The fact that he hasn't published his paper properly is not Wikipedia's problem, it is his. If he does manage to publish it in a good academic journal then we could cite it. Case closed.
All the content about his award is irrelevant to this article. As for recent sourcing on Newman and Blue zones there is a self-published piece here [2]. Again this is no good for Wikipedia. There is some other recent coverage here [3], [4], [5] which also isn't great. In a nutshell a wait and see position is best. It all depends if he gets his research to peer review. Psychologist Guy (talk) 20:19, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
