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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Zad68 (talk | contribs) at 17:52, 17 October 2010 (→Contradictions). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Messianic Judaism

At the very least this article should mention Messianic Judaism in passing as a self-titled Judaist group which views Jesus as divine and as the Messiah. It would be worth noting that this group's view of Jesus is the reason the group is not held to be Judaist by mainstream Judaism. Thoughts? JosiahHenderson (talk) 19:54, 22 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Messianic Judaism is a Christian denomination or movement. It has no more bearing on Judaism's view of Jesus than would a Baptist group.SkyWriter (Tim) (talk) 00:46, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
What Tim said. -Lisa (talk) 02:36, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree with both of the above comments - so called Messianic Judaism is a Christian group (note, not a single denomination), which has a strong Jewish flavouring, or at least more acknowledgement of the members Jewish heritage.

It may part company with Judaism on certain issues, such as the Trinity (most of the time), but it is also in agreement with it in others. As such it could be seen as either a Christian form of Judaism, a Jewish form of Christianity, or a heresy of Judaism.--MacRusgail (talk) 16:52, 9 March 2010 (UTC) p.s. It's also worth pointing out that thousands of Jews over the centuries have converted to Christianity (and Islam) without coercion as well as those who were forced.[reply]

From a purely Christian perspective the Messianic Jews are Judaizing heretics and hence are no more Christian than they are Jewish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.217.78.220 (talk) 12:28, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

MacRusgail is correct that Messianic Judaism is a movement with a variety of approaches. Most of the 600 identifyable congregations are independent but affiliated with one or more agency groups (which are sometimes referred to as denominations - like MJAA, AMC, etc.). The style of worship of MJs is different than most Jews that belong to Christian churches. However, I also agree with SkyWriter that Messianic Judaism should not be given more than a passing mention in this article, which obviously referrs to mainstream Judaism.--DeknMike (talk) 21:17, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Jewish Jesus

A number of books have come out in recent years, such as The Jewish Jesus and Our Father Abraham discussing the Jewish heritage of Christianity... in fact, many of them go as far to say that Christianity's problem was that it became de-Judaised, i.e. losing many of its Jewish attributes, and that Jesus himself has been misunderstood because of this. One theory that has been doing the rounds for years is that James proposed a Jewish Christianity, but that Pauline Christianity has removed or ignored many Jewish aspects.

I've just done a search through the Gospels for "rabbi", and was amazed to see how many times it appears in reference to Jesus. In some of the cases, it's used by Judas, but it's also used by Peter, and by other disciples. This doesn't come out in all the translations, but in the Greek it's obvious, because it's not a proper Greek word.--MacRusgail (talk) 16:52, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please help me as I am confused. I understand that the Jewish faith does not consider Jesus as the son of God. What I do not understand is why the Jewish leaders at the time of Christ plotted against him. Please help understand. I like to think I have an open mind and any feedback would be of great help. Thank you Andy1111 (talk) 02:22, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Andy, the plots against Jesus were not so much spiritual as political. Jesus upset the delicate balance of power with the Romans. Also, the religious leaders enjoyed a privilege status above common Jews, which happens in most religions over time (such as Catholic heriarchy in the middle ages and some Islamic clerics today).--DeknMike (talk) 21:25, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Contradictions

The statement that "since the messiah does not take center stage in Judaism, the total rejection of Jesus as either messiah or deity in Judaism has never been a central issue for Judaism" contradicts Messiah#Judaism and Jewish messianism. Does anyone have a source for this? --- cymru lass (hit me up)⁄(background check) 02:00, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That phrase bothers me as well. One source I read says a person can become a practicing Buddhist and remain a Jew (JewBu). A Jew can become totally agnostic - even athiestic - and remain a Jew. But if that Jew begins to heed the teachings of a 1st Century CE rabbi from Galilee, the orthodox among them strip Jewish status from the person. Not sure what the phychological interpretation would be....--DeknMike (talk) 21:29, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
DeknMike—what sort of "teachings" do you have in mind? You refer to the "teachings of a 1st Century CE rabbi from Galilee." You say, "But if that Jew begins to heed the teachings of a 1st Century CE rabbi from Galilee, the orthodox among them strip Jewish status from the person." When you refer to "teachings," what "teachings" are you referring to? Bus stop (talk) 22:01, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
See Matthew 3:13 and then chapter 6 & 7, especially 7:28-29 --DeknMike (talk) 00:44, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If 'Judaism's view of Jesus is a very peripheral one' (the lead sentence), why is there so much effort spent trying to prove acceptance of Jesus' teachings are anathema to Judaism? According to Rabbi Kertzner ('What is a Jew?") Jesus is the key difference between Judaism and Christianity.--DeknMike (talk) 04:21, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There isn't so much effort spent on it. The non-messiah-ness of Jesus is a very peripheral issue in Judaism. Just like the non-blackness of white. It's only when people start trying to say that black is white and Jesus was a messiah that any Jews feel any need to deal with the subject. Otherwise, it's boring and irrelevant to us. I.e., "very peripheral".
You have a skewed picture of how interested we are in the subject for the simple reason that you are on a warpath, trying to force Jesus into Judaism the way you might try to force a foot into a shoe 3 sizes too small. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 12:22, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Lisa. DeknMike, because you are an evangelical Christian, it seems you have a hard time understanding that Jesus can be entirely unimportant to a large group of people, and so you really need to watch your POV in your edits. Your POV has caused 3 of your edits to this article in the past 2 weeks to be reverted, and I wanted to give you some insight here:
If you were to look at the body of Jewish canonical literature, you would find Jesus is never mentioned at all, not even once. Even the Talmud content on "Yeshu" is not a reference to Jesus, but instead uses "Yeshu" as a literary device to personify different theological aspects of Christianity, and refute them. Judaism is not a religion that defines itself in negative comparison to Christianity. To the contrary -- Judaism was started (by religious reckoning) many centuries before Christianity.
For Jews, "Jesus" (either by name, or by Christian understanding) is absolutely nowhere to be found in Torah, or Nevi'im, or Ketuvium, or Siddur, or daily prayers, or major festivals, or minor festivals, or day-to-day practice... There simply is no statement made about him, and therefore, Judaism's view of Jesus can at best be described as 'peripheral.' The topic only comes up when it is brought up by OUTSIDERS to Judaism, such as Christians. If it weren't for such outside interference, it would never come up at all. How much time do you spend thinking about Mohammed? Or Vishnu? Or Zeus? Probably next to none at all, UNLESS you're engaging someone in debate about them. This is why your edit that Jesus "offers insight into the core of the faith" was reverted -- it's Christian POV, because that's a statement only an Evangelical Christian would make about Judaism. No Muslim or Buddhist or atheist would make such a statement. Would you say that the Christian view of Joseph Smith provides defining insight into the core of Christianity? Of course not.
I hope this helps you gain perspective on why your edits here are being reverted, and hopefully will help you find more efficient use of your editing time.Zad68 (talk) 17:49, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Softer words"

DeknMike's edit ([1]) carried the comment "softer words". But the edit actually reversed the meaning of the sentence. Are we going to have to go through one editor's PR efforts on behalf of "Messianic Judaism" on this article as well? - Lisa (talk - contribs) 22:53, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Then tell me, if it's "peripheral" how is it "most influential" and "damaging"? It's not PR, it's scholarship.--DeknMike (talk) 00:39, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
DeknMike—Jesus is considered to be "influential" on non-Jews, but "peripheral" to Judaism. These are the relevant sentences: "Judaism's view of Jesus is a very peripheral one. Jews have traditionally seen Jesus as one of a number of false messiahs who have appeared throughout history. Jesus is viewed as having been the most influential, and consequently the most damaging of all false messiahs." Jesus is therefore considered by Judaism to be "damaging" because Judaism views Jesus as a "false messiah" hence someone who leads people astray. Bus stop (talk) 01:02, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I strongly agree. Whatever you think about the Jewish perspective on Jesus, "softer words" are motivated by political cringe, not the impulse to relate the truth. BillMasen (talk) 11:19, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't agree with Bus Stop - it still sounds like an internal contradiction - but I understand his reasoning now. BillMasen on the other had is simply lobbing an unfounded attack.--DeknMike (talk) 00:43, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Your edit was intended to avoid giving offence. While this may be laudable, we can't do that at the expense of reality. That's the point. BillMasen (talk) 11:09, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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