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Ambiguity problem with the year numbering system (CE/BCE; AD/BC) guideline

The sixth bullet point at WP:ERA concerning arbitrary style changes from CE—AD and vice-versa seems rather ambiguous and doesn't outline any valid reasons for why a change would be appropriate, other than to state that arguments should be "specific to the article". If someone were to initiate discussion at Talk:Julius Caesar for example, and were to argue in favor of using BCE/CE, what argument for its use could possibly be considered valid? The guideline itself rules out "personal preference" as a reason, and I'm not sure which other arguments could be used save notable academic use of one particular notation for that subject matter, multicultural sensitivity or political correctness.

Given past failed attempts, I don't think mandating one style is the answer. But perhaps it is time for us to decide which categories of articles should generally use BCE/CE and which should use BC/AD? There remain innumerable articles whose presentation and readability is compromised due to varied use of both the BCE/CE and BC/AD notations within the same article. It's quite unprofessional. — FoxCE (talk • contribs) 04:31, 15 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Good to see this issue being raised, as I came over to this talk page after seeing a page on specifically Jewish events using "BC". It seems to me that this question is much like the American/British spelling question: either is generally acceptable, but on specifically British-focused articles, American spellings are avoided, and vice versa. It seems to me that articles on Christian history, the BC/AD usage should be prefered; for pages specifically on matters of non-Christian religions, BCE/CE should be preferred; for all other articles, consistency within the article is the important thing. --Nat Gertler (talk) 16:54, 20 March 2012 (UTC) (And for technical reasons, let me add to my suggestion for consistency "except in quotes"; obviously, we should not rule out having an AD quote and a CE quote in the same article, nor would it be appropriate to refactor the quotes. --Nat Gertler (talk) 20:40, 20 March 2012 (UTC))[reply]
It should decided on a by-article basis, and if people can't agree they should default to the status quo (provided it's consistent and has been stable for a while; otherwise, use whichever style was used in the first non-stub version of the article, or flip a coin, or whatever). ― A. di M.​  18:03, 20 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I also agree with A. di M. that BCE/CE should be the default for certain categories of articles (particularly religious articles and archæological-type articles which strongly comment upon religions which are not New Testament/Christian centric). The use of the "other system" (which I do not use) are faith claims, particularly the one equivalent to CE which is a self-declaration of a certain person's divinity by anyone who uses it. Such a declaration of faith is strongly POV and thus violates the WP NPOV rule.
BCE-CE is, on the other hand, neutral, even though the era (the Gregorian calendar's eras) that they are based on is connected to the same person referred to in the other system since it does not directly make a declaration of any particular faith nor any claim of divinity for any particular person (it only the years since/before the supposed birth of a person; the divinity question is not addressed).
Those who claim the other system is NPOV have at the same time, when asked, said that using the Rabbinic (which is based on the supposed age of the world) or the Islamic era system (which is based on the year of a certain first pilgrimage) would be POV. There seems to be a bit of hypocrisy here, and lack of willingness to see or admit bias/POV on their own part.
A side-effect of using the other system is a non-willingness of certain persons of faith (both Jewish and Islamic) to make edits to Wikipedia; indeed, there are certain small religious communities of these two groups where there is a ban (a bit extreme, in my opinion) on their community members from using or editing WP because of WP's use of the other system. Unfortunately, this may cause people who have the most knowledge in these particular topics to not be willing to participating in WP. This alone should be a sign that this other system is strongly POV when it causes people to shun WP use.
— al-Shimoni (talk) 01:39, 29 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It wasn't A. di M. who suggested that, it was Nat Gertler. Nevertheless, I would agree that BCE/CE should be the default for non-Christian religious topics and archaeological articles dealing with non-Christian or Abrahamic religious history, but only if BC/AD would then be the default for other categories of articles, e.g. vastly secular topics. Making one notation the default for one set of categories but not the other is insufficient in resolving this problem we are having with consistency and NPOV.
I strongly disagree with your argument that AD/BC (which you refuse to even name, which seems to speak to your own strongly biased POV on this issue) are POV whilst BCE/CE are not. You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what the WP:NPOV policy is: editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. AD and CE are both used by reliable sources—–with AD still in the lead by most accounts–—so we use both systems here. Most importantly, NPOV does not dictate that we remove any and all religious connotations from the customs of the English language and replace them with euphemistic terminology, else we'd use, for example, "Common Fourth Day" in place of Thursday to avoid "faith claims" about the Norse pagan deity Thor. The true violation of NPOV policy would be to only use BCE/CE, as it would unfairly promote the use of one notation when both have a status of significantly notable usage in the English language. It is not the encyclopedia's concern that some users may be more offended by BC/AD than by Thursday or other similar religiously-connotated English language conventions. — FoxCE (talk • contribs) 04:56, 29 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The claim that standardizing on BCE would be a violation of NPOV is a misreading of NPOV. Not everything is a statement of a point of view. In articles that are discussing the use of dating formats, yes, both should be discussed. The argument that we have to use both because both are used outside of Wikipedia is simply an argument against standards; the real world uses both straight quotes and curly quotes, but we standardize on straight quotes; we standardize on avoiding honorifics; and so forth. (Applying NPOV in this manner to dates would be particularly ugly, since we're supposed to represent different views within the article, and this would call for, what? Alternating CE and AD references?) If BCE meant "there is no Christ", perhaps there would be a conflict; but it doesn't. --Nat Gertler (talk) 05:21, 29 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
While I accept your point, I think the BC vs. BCE issue is more directly comparable to the US vs. UK English spelling issue than the examples you've cited, with both being deeply personal issues for many. While we could easily standardize either US or UK English spelling wiki-wide, this would result in constant argumentation for standardization of the other, since both spellings are in widespread use and it is virtually guaranteed that there will never be agreement about which to use primarily. The same can be said about BC vs. BCE, in fact even moreso since involves one of the most controversial issues in society. Ultimately, the main point I was trying to get across is that Wikipedia shouldn't exclusively use any available euphemisms for religious-originating terms just because it can, else we'd need to use them for every single English-language convention with a religious connotation, many of which don't have notable euphemisms in widespread use. Because of the highly contentious nature of it all, I don't think BC/AD should ever be dropped from Wikipedia until (A) we excise all other religiously-connotated conventions or (B) BC/AD falls almost completely out of use in reliable sources. — FoxCE (talk • contribs) 05:56, 29 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, getting back on point: given that both BC and BCE are described as acceptable in the general case, is there any reason we shouldn't prefer BCE for articles on non-Christian religions? --Nat Gertler (talk) 04:24, 12 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I would only agree to that if BC/AD were to become the preferable notation for secular topics, which I doubt it will. I don't think we can assert in the MOS that both notations are equally valid if we are recommending one for a particular category of articles but not the other for another category.
However, something else relating to WP:ERA that I would like to put in place is a rule that as of a set date going forward (i.e. April 27, 2012), all articles that currently have stable use of BCE/CE should retain that notation permanently, and all that use BC/AD will should retain it permanently. As for new articles or articles that don't yet use either notation anywhere, whichever is used first as a natural part of the elaboration of the article without contest will become its immutable standard. I'm going to add a section about this below. — FoxCE (talk • contribs) 12:38, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Problem: Date ranges and AD

When AD is placed in front of the year, the best way to use it with period of years is in my opinion eg "AD 110-115" instead of "AD 110 - AD 115". But what if months or days are involved -- which is better: "May AD 110 - May AD 115" or "AD May 110 - May 115", "15 May AD 110 - 15 May AD 115" or "AD 15 May 110 - 15 May 115"? -- 95.208.230.48 (talk) 17:48, 17 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

AD standing for Anno Domini ‘in the year of the Lord’ (though it's also used in constructions like 2nd century AD where its literal translation doesn't quite make sense), I guess it ought to be immediately before (or after) the year number, e.g. May AD 110 – May AD 115, 15 May AD 110 – 15 May AD 115. On the other hand, I wouldn't repeat it at the second occurrence, hence May AD 110 – May 115, 15 May AD 110 – 15 May 115. ― A. di M.​  17:59, 20 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If you put the AD at the end, it could be more easily read as referring to both dates, May 15, 110 – May 14, 115 A.D. or 15 May 110 – 14 May 115 AD. Less naturally, perhaps, you could put the A.D. at the front to cover both dates at once, e.g. AD May 15, 110 – May 14, 115 or A.D. 15 May 110 – 14 May 115. (After all, a BC/E date isn't going to follow an AD one chronologically). But those are just my preferences. I think that strict rules wouldn't work here very well: it seems less awkward, unnatural and confusing to put the day (rather than the month) closer to the the AD rather than to follow WP:ENGVAR rigidly.—— Shakescene (talk) 22:33, 20 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Should this document mention {{Use dmy dates}} and {{Use mdy dates}}?

The templates {{Use dmy dates}}, {{Dmy}}, {{Use mdy dates}} and {{Mdy}} are used to specify a preferred date format for an article. Not only are they unambiguous for human editors, they are very helpful for bots. Should those be mentioned in this document? Blevintron (talk) 01:06, 10 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wikidata

The Signpost has reported this week on progress in launching this new project—one that is likely to be powerful and influential if managed well. I've signed up as a volunteer WRT participating in discussion and consensus-generation concerning style, formatting and presentation. This aspect doesn't seem to be on the radar yet for Wikidata, yet it is just as important there as it is for a WP; style and formatting need to be discussed by the community, or we'll find ourselves with hyphens for minus signs all over the place, and units and symbols jammed up against each other (both contrary to ISO rules and en.WP's MOSNUM). There may need to be unique discussions about whether percentage signs, for example, may be spaced or unspaced, depending on the linguistic origins of the original author (the French space it). It's an interesting new scenario, and I encourage experts here—who have constructed and maintained what appears to be the most sophisticated guide for numerical style in the whole of the Wikimedia movement—to contribute to this exciting new project. Tony (talk) 03:39, 12 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request

Could the bullet point starting "Do not use year-final numerical date formats (DD-MM-YYYY or MM-DD-YYYY), as they are ambiguous" get something like {{anchor|Ambiguous}} next to it? 71.197.244.119 (talk) 04:14, 15 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And maybe also add a 'don't' example using dots/periods instead of slashes or hyphens (EG DD.MM.YYYY), and put all the examples in the !xt template? 71.197.244.119 (talk) 04:14, 15 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
ie
* Do not use year-final numerical date formats (DD-MM-YYYY or MM-DD-YYYY), as they are ambiguous: "03/04/2005" could refer to 3 April or to March 4. For consistency, do not use such formats even if the day number is greater than 12.
becomes
*{{anchor|Ambiguous}} Do not use year-final numerical date formats ({{!xt|DD.MM.YYYY}} or {{!xt|MM-DD-YYYY}}), as they are ambiguous: "{{!xt|03/04/2005}}" could refer to 3 April or to March 4. For consistency, do not use such formats even if the day number is greater than 12.
71.197.244.119 (talk) 04:30, 15 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think the anchor "Ambiguous" is appropriate because there are too many other usages in the English language that are also ambiguous that could use the same anchor, such as "12 AM". "DD-MM-YYYY" and "MM-DD-YYYY" are not examples, they are formats, so they don't belong in the !xt template. Those strings would never appear in an article; the letters would be replaced by numerals in an article.
Have you had problems with people challenging your replacement of the ambiguous formats and needed an anchor to refer them to the appropriate part of MOSNUM? If so, the shortcut WP:DATEFORMAT would get the close. Have you had people argue with you, claiming that although the MOSNUM prohibits 04/15/2012, 04.15.2012 is OK? Jc3s5h (talk) 12:29, 15 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

24 hour clock addition

I have added a note about the handling of midnight using the 24 hour clock. This convention is used by airlines outside the United States where times are usually rounded to the nearest five minutes. If consensus regards this additional note as being excessive, I will not oppose its removal. Martinvl (talk) 09:21, 20 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I do not accept, without evidence, that airlines outside the US use 0001 and 2359 rather than 0000 and 2400 because they think these are directly more clear to passengers. Instead, I suspect their times are translated into AM and PM times by US airlines that code-share or make connections with them, and whatever times they use will be converted by computers to the AM and PM format.
Wikipedia editors do not select times, they report times written about by others in reliable sources. Editors should not change times, so the advice added to the guideline by Martinvl would seldom be appropriate. Note that the section about AM and PM times does not suggest changing times, it suggests replacing them with "noon" or "midnight". Jc3s5h (talk) 10:45, 20 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It would take a little searching on my part as most European airports are closed at midnight due to local noise restrictions. However Qatar Airlines follows what I suggested. You will also note that apart from these times, all times are rounded to the nearest five minutes. I also suggest that you visit the live arrival and departure boards of a European airport of your choice. They are closed at midnight, but all times are rounded to the nearest five minutes.
As regards the changing of times, you will notice a big caveat on my part. Martinvl (talk) 13:00, 20 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I understand the caveat to only consider, not always do it, and to consider context. But the only time I can think of when the advice would be applicable would be when creating an example, where one has freedom to choose times. In that case, it would be better to choose a time well-separated from noon or midnight. It is also confusing to suggest changing times when using 24-hour notation but to suggest demand using "mignight" and "noon" when using AM/PM notation. Further confusion results because in an article that makes frequent use of noon and midnight, and a potential for confusion exits between the two midnights at the ends of a given day, 24-hour notation might be an appropriate solution, but the new advice would discourage that. Jc3s5h (talk) 13:09, 20 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
As shown in the railway timetable in page 24-hour clock, both 00:00 and 24:00 notations are factually used in timetables. Even both on a single page. Off-setting by a minute goes against the grain of the 24-hour system. One should never change a time from a dependable source. −Woodstone (talk) 16:32, 20 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Access dates

This is what the Manual of Style currently says about access dates:

  • Access and archive dates in references should be in either the format used for publication dates, or YYYY-MM-DD.
In the same article, write
  • Jones, J. (20 Sep 2008) ... Retrieved 5 Feb 2009.

or
  • Jones, J. (September 20, 2008) ... Retrieved 2009-02-05.

but not
  • Jones, J. (20 Sep 2008) ... Retrieved February 5, 2009.

There doesn't seem to be any rational basis for allowing a different date format for access and archive dates than we use for publication dates. I therefore propose that the option to use YYYY-MM-DD even when the publication dates use a different format should be removed. If the fear is that articles will be punished in FA reviews and the like, then that could be addressed, but having people use WP:DATERET to justify thwarting people who try to make date formats uniform within the references section is bizarre. As I said, there is no benefit to having different formats side-by-side, and there is even less in forbidding people to bring in uniformity. -Rrius (talk) 21:00, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Several publications will not have all three components of a publication date (year certainly at minimum, but month and often day of month are unknown), while accessdates can always be justified this way. Hence the reason for two different systems between pub date and access date.
As for people that revert changes that attempt to normalize the formatting of dates consistently in references, if the generally agreed upon format(s) is obvious, that reverting is a troutable action. On the other hand, if its difficult to tell which date format(s) are desirable, discussion should occur on the talk page instead of forcing one way or antoher. --MASEM (t) 21:09, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the retrieved date formats within an article should all have the same format - and have always presumed that was the intention of the policy, as my edits will reflect. "People" are not just making the date formats "uniform", they are converting uniform accessdate formats to their personal preference - or more often, making no attempt to follow WP:DATERET and removing uniform ones they do not like to "any other". One such "people" has also posted that anytime he finds an inconsistent accessdate format, he will remove YYYY-MM-DD on sight, making no effort to follow WP:DATERET. That same "people" has repeatedly been notified that he is contravening policy - yet continues to do so on a large scale --JimWae (talk) 21:11, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You aren't agreeing with anyone; what has been said is that dates in the reference section should be uniform, not just pubs with pubs and accesses with accesses. Your point about what one editor has done is irrelevant to the question here. Please attempt to justify why YYYY-MM-DD should be allowed as an alternative to the date format used for publication dates. -Rrius (talk) 21:26, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand your first point. What we are talking about is the situation where more than a year is known, so there is a single full-date format for publication dates. Even if all that is included is a month, we know that the appropriate format includes written-out months, so YYYY-MM-DD would not be appropriate, and the user would have the choice of putting the day before or after the month. Removing the option of using YYYY-MM-DD in addition to the publication format doesn't change anything with regard to situations where no format has been chosen for publication dates. In other words, if my proposal were adopted, it would in no way prevent a person from adopting YYYY-MM-DD when only a year is used for publication dates. That is because YYYY-MM-DD is an option for publication dates itself. That raises the question of whether reference format should be allowed to differ from the body, but I'll leave that for another time. -Rrius (talk) 21:24, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In view of the widely advertised RfC Wikipedia:Mosnum/proposal on YYYY-MM-DD numerical dates I suggest if Rrius intends to modify the advice concerning YYYY-MM-DD access dates it must be through a widely advertised RfC.

Furthermore, take note of the see also template at the top of the In references heading, which reads

See also: "Citation style " section in "Citing Sources"

Many styles are allowed, including styles from printed style manuals. Some of these manuals suggest different formats for dates within citations, depending on the purpose of the citation. In practice, YYYY-MM-DD dates are only used with citation templates. So I suggest this proposal is out of order here, and should be brought up at the various citation template pages. Jc3s5h (talk) 00:46, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Um, no. This is a separate issue from that discussion; it is a direct proposal to edit the content of this page. It is not a proposal to outlaw YYYY-MM-DD in references. Rather, it is a proposal to get rid of allowing YYYY-MM-DD for access dates when publications dates use a different format. Also, it is not just about citation templates; the issue also arises in typed-out references. -Rrius (talk) 01:22, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion Wikipedia:Mosnum/proposal on YYYY-MM-DD numerical dates does discuss whether YYYY-MM-DD should be allowed for some, but not all, dates within a citation.
A requirement to use the same format for all dates within a citation, regardless of the purpose of the date, would bring this page into conflict with WP:CITEVAR. Jc3s5h (talk) 01:40, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The proposal you are talking about has been dead for almost three years, and from what the actual proposal listed at the top, it was not about this issue. The fact that some people may have brought it up is irrelevant. That proposal was much broader in scope than this one. As for the CITEVAR point, I don't see it. I just read it twice, and I don't see the conflict. The only issue here is whether it is rational to allow one date format for the publication date in a reference and a different one for access and archive dates in the same reference. That's it. If you really think there is a conflict, then leave a note on that guideline's talk page referring them here. But this is clearly the correct place to have this discussion as it is the only place in the guidelines where this particular issue is directly dealt with. Instead of trying to palm this discussion off on a different page, would you care to weigh in on the actual issue? So far no one has bothered to. I said at the outset there is no justification, and so far I have been proved right. -Rrius (talk) 01:53, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The conflict arises because a style manual adopted for a particular article may require different kinds of dates to have different formats. For example see this example of APA style:

McGinn, D. (2005, June 27). Rewinding a video giant [Electronic version]. Newsweek, 145(26). Retrieved July 12, 2005, from http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8259044/site/newsweek [Emphasis added.]

However, the latest version of the APA style manual discourages retrieval dates except for electronic sources that are likely to change. Jc3s5h (talk) 02:40, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Before I can even think about this, what on Earth does "Access and archive dates in references should be in either the format used for publication dates" mean (my underlined bit)? Tony (talk) 01:49, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • I don't understand why you are confused, but I will help as best I can. What you are quoting is part of the guideline, of which you left out "or YYYY-MM-DD". The access and archive dates are the ones that come after "Retrieved" or "Archived" in the text (what you put after "|accessdate=" or "|archivedate" in a citation template). The publication date is usually rendered in parentheses and is what you put after "|date=" in a citation template. Right now the rule says that the access and archive dates should either be in the same format as the publication dates or YYYY-MM-DD. My proposal is that the two dates should be in the same format. -Rrius (talk) 01:59, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • Sorry to appear dumb: what is "the format used for publication dates" in the context of an article? (As opposed to what has been inserted into the archived and retrieved fields.) Tony (talk) 06:44, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • A reference citation typically includes the author, the title of the work, the publisher or source, the date of publication, and so on. The date of publication, if present, appears in some format. Gimmetoo (talk) 12:41, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support There seems already to exist the possibility of many date formats within reference sections. Potentially we already have:
    1. dates within the title parameter which are immutable, even if they are unacceptable per WP:MOSNUM.
    2. publication dates in the same format as the article body.
    3. access dates in the same format as the article body.
    4. archival dates in the same format as the article body.
    5. publication dates in ISO.
    6. access dates in ISO.
    7. archival dates in ISO.
So, potentially for each of dmy and mdy formats, we have 8 different permissible permutations as follows:
    body publication access archive     body publication access archive
  alt1 dmy dmy dmy dmy   alt1 mdy mdy mdy mdy
  alt2 dmy ISO dmy dmy   alt2 mdy ISO mdy mdy
  alt3 dmy dmy ISO dmy   alt3 mdy mdy ISO mdy
  alt4 dmy dmy dmy ISO   alt4 mdy mdy mdy ISO
  alt5 dmy ISO ISO dmy   alt5 mdy ISO ISO mdy
  alt6 dmy dmy ISO ISO   alt6 mdy mdy ISO ISO
  alt7 dmy ISO dmy ISO   alt7 mdy ISO mdy ISO
  alt8 dmy ISO ISO ISO   alt8 mdy ISO ISO ISO
Let's also remember that in the halcyon days of Date autoformatting, all the dates were rendered dmy or mdy according to user preference settings. Since its disabling, ISO dates are appearing everywhere, and users are often mystified as to how they work, what they mean. They often get the implementation horribly wrong. As if it were not problematic enough dealing with a mix of dmy and mdy dates, keeping ISO dates in the mix within reference sections is definitely not a sensible way to go. What's more, it's never been clear to this user as to why accessdates are so special that they deserve to be treated separately from publication dates and archival dates. Dates pervade wikipedia, and the task of maintaining date format consistency must be made manageable by automated means, not just human effort or semi-automated; it's just impossible at present, and human effort is still subject to risk of "wrong conversions". It should be all or none for ISO dates within reference sections; in other words, we should only have 'alt1' and 'alt8'. --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 02:16, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Re Jc3's comments above, contrary to what Jc3 asserts, ISO dates are not used exclusively within citation templates. As to the "Many styles" of dates being allowed by WP:CITE, such as styles from printed style manuals, these will further add to the permutations identified above, and further complicate maintenance. --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 02:47, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest that citations not using citation templates are not amenable to automated maintenance, so using ISO 8601 format would not help in that case. Since this guideline isn't really addressed to citations, and certainly isn't addressed solely to citation templates, any discussion for date formats within citation templates be discussed on the talk pages of the citation templates, and not here. If/when such a discussion occurs, the participants might want to explain how they will educate editors about how to convert any publication dates in the Julian calendar to the Gregorian calendar, which is the only calendar allowed in ISO 8601 dates. Jc3s5h (talk) 03:17, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Er, by definition, since Wikipedia was launched in 2001, all dates susceptible of being used to indicate access dates are Gregorian. --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 03:22, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Your table advocates some ISO format for publication dates. I guess you mean ISO 8601. Jc3s5h (talk) 03:26, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Also for the purposes of our citations, I have yet to see a publication date before 24 February 1582, and it is questionable how anything that far back can have a reliably-established publication date. --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 03:32, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The Julian calendar was used in Russian and Greece into the 20th century. Jc3s5h (talk) 03:59, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Also, I invite Ohconfucius to prove his claim that "ISO dates are not used exclusively within citation templates." I wouldn't be surprised if he could find an instance of the YYYY-MM-DD format in a non-template citation, but I would be surprised if he could prove that the editor who added any YYYY-MM-DD formatted date was consciously adhering to any ISO standard. Jc3s5h (talk) 03:24, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm asking you to take my word for it, but I'm not going to comb through my thousands of date-related edits to prove that to you. Suffice it to say there is the option within reflinks to populate reference data, including ISO dates, without the template, and I have seen used. --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 03:32, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps reflinks can add dates, without a template, to a citation that consists of a bare URL. But once that is done, no tool is able to read the dates, figure out what kind of date it is, and automatically maintain it (perhaps by comparing it to a date in a publication date and flagging it if it conflicts with the database). Jc3s5h (talk) 03:56, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose change and Ohconfucius's interpretation of the existing guidelines; there is no reason why access dates and/or archive dates shouldn't be in YYYY-MM-DD (aka ISO 8601) format, regardless of the format for publication dates and dates in the article. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 03:55, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Which bit of my "interpretation" do you oppose, and on what grounds? If there are any material false premises, then please state them so we can discuss them, instead of rubbishing my analysis. Solid reasons have been stated by the nom, and I feel my analysis is pertinent and accurate. Your oppose, arguing "no reason why access [it] shouldn't" isn't an argument. It's only valueless rhetoric. --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 11:19, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose change, no reason to insist on uniformity. I personally always use YYYY-MM-DD for the subsidiary dates, and always will, they are shorter and less obtrusive, appropriate for minor information. Ohconfucius is perhaps joking with the mention of "halcyon days"? Those were the days of per-logged in user date settings, not per-reader of the encyclopedia - so the regiatered editors who set their own date preference were just fooling themselves, the ISO dates were there all along and visible to every anonymous reader, our actual readership. Franamax (talk) 04:46, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Uniformity, after quality and clarity of prose, is one of the main drivers of "quality" in the project. To say that there is "no reason to insist on uniformity" is akin to burying one's head in the sand. As to "halcyon days", yes, I had my tongue in my cheek. --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 11:19, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose change for the reasons well-stated by Franamax. And, with all respect, there are more pressing needs for the valuable time of Wikipedia's careful proofreaders.--Arxiloxos (talk) 06:30, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment and request. Generally I'm all in favour of simplicity against complexity, uniformity against bewildering variety in styling, and clarity in presentation of style guidelines, and of proposals to change them. I like the look of what Ohconfucius lays out, above. But searching further up, I get lost.
    Will someone please set out in a short, clear, well-marked paragraph what the hell we're supporting or opposing here?
    This talkpage needs to be far more navigable, if progress is to be made. (With respect guys, take a look at WT:MOS these days, for comparison.)
    A couple of specific suggestions: label sections thoughtfully and informatively; and make a well-labelled subsection when there is a proposal that needs votes, OK? Just under the heading, state clearly what the proposition is. Critics can rightly complain that the community is left out of decision-making, if we don't do such things.
    NoeticaTea? 12:29, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I also don't understand what is being proposed, except that it appears certain editors think it would remove yyyy-mm-dd style date formats. Plenty of editors use that format in the references, especially for the accessdates. There are editors who prefer to help distinguish different types of information by using different formats for that information. At least one not-entirely-obscure external reference format (APA) has different formats for them, too. Also, Ohconfucius analysis above does not represent the current guideline on many points, nor, to my recollection is his technical history correct on how date autoformatting worked; WP had yyyy-mm-dd dates looking like yyyy-mm-dd dates then. Gimmetoo (talk) 12:48, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I endorse what Noetica says; I've thought it for a long long time. MOSNUM could easily be shortened with no loss of effective guidance.

    Gimme, the whole matter of the harmonisation of ref access dates, etc, is a bit clouded, I believe. The text needs to be clearer. I wonder why you're at OC so often after he harmonises, cleans up. I find ref date-formats to have become messier and messier over the past few years. Tony (talk) 12:52, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed changes to WP:ERA

Weighing my concern for constant ongoing edit warring and unnoticed era notation changes on innumerable articles across the encyclopedia (noted in above section) with an understanding that no consensus for which era notation is appropriate for which types of articles will be probably ever be reached, I am making a proposal for change to the WP:ERA guideline (specifically, the fourth paragraph).

Here is the fourth bullet point as it stands now. Problem areas bolded:

  • Do not arbitrarily change from one era style to the other on any given article. Instead, attempt to establish a consensus for change at the talk page. Reasons for the proposed change should be specific to the content of the article; a general preference for one style over another is not a valid reason.

I think the glaring problem with this paragraph is that it does not specify what type of valid arguments can be used when attempting to argue for a notation change. And really, there are none. A common argument is that it is not appropriate to use a "Christian system" for an article about—for example—Jewish history, but then why is it appropriate to use Roman pagan months and Norse pagan days of the week for the same article? The solution for this paragraph is to not encourage time-wasting argumentation for era changes when the arguments will have no basis in Wikipedia policy. I believe we should make whichever era style is currently used in any given article the immutable standard going forward from a certain date (i.e. this month). For articles with no BCE–CE–AD–BC usage at all, whichever is used first as part of a natural elaboration of the article should become the immutable standard. For articles that defy the current recommendation and mix both styles at random throughout, a talk page discussion should be opened to reach consensus on one style.

My proposed change:

  • Do not arbitrarily change from one era style to the other on any given article. Whichever notation style has had stable use in any given article as of [April 2012?] should remain its immutable standard. For new articles or articles that do not as of yet use either style, whichever is used first as a natural part of the elaboration of the article should become its immutable standard. For articles that mix use of both styles as of [April 2012?], discussion should be opened to reach a consensus on which single style to use as an immutable standard.

If you generally agree with my changes but have problems with the wording, please add your suggestions for how to word it better. I realize that "immutable standard" is a bit strong and there will be those who will beg and cry to have an article change its style from BC to BCE or vice versa, but I think this change will not only save wasted time arguing about this, but will also prevent endless circular talk page arguments about "Christian POV" or "political correctness" that we've all seen before. — FoxCE (talk • contribs) 13:12, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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