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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 81.159.107.19 (talk) at 01:26, 5 November 2012 (→‎Commenting on nominations: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.


FPCs needing feedback




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Wikipedia:Picture peer review

I noticed that there have been no comments at WP:PPR this month. Is it still working. I just upgraded from the Canon Powershot TX1 to a Canon EOS Rebel T3i, which means it is easier for me to take FPC-caliber shots. Should I just nominate things here?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 05:54, 30 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • I suggest marking PPR as inactive. FPC gets a lot more traffic than PPR does, and there are times when an FPC will fail on the first try but use the feedback to adjust the image so that it passes on the second try, so I suggest that people not be shy about posting to FPC, there is no penalty for failing. If people want comments on pictures without going through the formal FPC process then it seems to me that this talk page is a more likely place to get feedback. Pine✉ 09:03, 30 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Or find someone who takes similar shots as yours, and ask them for their opinion prior to posting. As with articles, there can be some preparation one should do to an image to improve its chances, such as altering the composition, noise-reduction/sharpening changes, exposure adjustment, etc. One thing I'd recommend is buying Lightroom (it is much cheaper now, and cheaper still if you get an educational licence) and shooting raw. This gives you the latitude to to adjust the exposure (esp at the extremes), colour temperature, noise reduction and sharpening, etc at your leisure. If you shoot JPG then these things are more-or-less fixed when you press the button. That program is useful for organising your photos, etc too. -- Colin°Talk 09:23, 30 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • Excellent choice in cameras, Looking forward to seeing some more Chicago pictures it's been a while, lol. I was in Chiacgo for the first time last summer, lots of good things to photograph. Please though, if PPR is really dead, I'll be happy to personally review any/all of your images before you nominate and let you know my opinions on if they're FP worthy or not, and/or give you suggestions on how to improve your photography now that you have a good camera if I see any room for improvement. For an editor of your caliber I'm sure you're capable. I don't want to see this turn into how it was last time with massive amounts of nominations for photos that just can't pass.. ;-\ Thats why I offer you my time, limited as it is. — raekyt 00:08, 1 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Agree, PPR should be closed as almost inactive. Also it does not make sense as one can simply review the criteria or ask an experienced user.at most --GoPTCN 07:36, 1 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Chasing the next camera model for marginal technical benefits is the surest way to blow your money, and doesn't reward you with the better pictures you might hope. Learn your current camera and be happy with it. (Of course, you should have gone Sony if you want fps  ;-) -- Colin°Talk 19:12, 1 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Agree, spend most of the money on lenses, they don't depreciate at anywhere near the same rate technologically or in value. JJ Harrison (talk) 23:27, 2 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

File:Serengeti Elefantenbulle.jpg

Just a note for people who are more active at FPC now than me: the current POTD is not in any articles, although I don't feel that's enough cause to start a delist procedure. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 11:37, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The picture on the left was recently promoted and in that FPC J Milburn and I expressed reservations about the similarity between it and the file on the right. The supporters generally held that the view, from what I can understand, that although the files were similar and/or very similar, this did not undermine the possibility of having both as featured pictures. Mr Milburn and I did not doubt that either file met the criteria if the other wasn't there but felt that it was impossible for a second file to meet the criterion Adds significant encyclopedic value to an article and helps readers to understand an article. because the reader could learn these details from the other image. As I say, the differences between the images weren't argued by supporters - it was thought that they were similar. I would like to know whether similar images are now OK in general; so, for, example, two views of the Eiffel Tower or Taj Mahal from the same angle (assuming both have a high technical quality). Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 18:29, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A very interesting discussion for me and I'm curious about the result. I see two very different images. A good discussion and happy looking for all :-) The creator. --Alchemist-hp (talk) 19:45, 18 September 2012 (UTC) P.S. if some users like it: I can take one more good and perhaps an FP image of oxidized bismuth in bluish tones ;-)[reply]
Well we could have a discussion about this image but fundamentally the issue is a much wider one – the FPC appeared to proceed on the basis that the images were similar. Going back to the case in hand, at the moment the article doesn't distinguish them, save for the word "artificial". Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 20:08, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The images differ somewhat, but their usage in the article is pretty much identical; it's not clear that the old one offers anything that the new one doesn't. That raises real questions about its EV. (As an aside, Alchemist, I am a massive fan of your work, and I love both these pictures- please don't take my comments as an attack on you or your photographs.) J Milburn (talk) 21:10, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hey J Milburn, "... don't take my comments as an attack on you or your photographs ..." NO, I don't do it. The discussion is OK for me. And I don't like to discuss here. It isn't my job. My job is to take nice images. Best regards to all, --Alchemist-hp (talk) 21:45, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've no problem for more than one FPs of same subject; but here it seems an update of the existing file with some add-on. But the old file is used in so many places including Book:Bismuth so I think it is difficult to replace them with the new one. Anyway I'm happy to support if anybody open a delist request. I supported the new one because I believe we should not neglect a new high quality work only because an old one already has the FP status. Jkadavoor (talk) 09:17, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment On Commons I was very much opposed to delisting former FPs when something better came along. I thought the process was needlessly contentious and really didn't bring value to the project. However, given the emphasis placed on the EV criteria here at en:WP, there really doesn't seem to be room for two FPs on the essentially same subject. Grandiose make a cogent argument on this point. The former Template:Former_featured_picture removes much of my concern regarding removing photos in an undignified way. Saffron Blaze (talk) 12:07, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps: I may not to take more then "one" FP image of the same subject ;-) ... ?!? Interesting ... :-) --Alchemist-hp (talk) 17:33, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That would be unfortunate, as they all deserve FP on commons :) Saffron Blaze (talk) 19:17, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes; it would be very unfortunate for me too. That is why I argued there (on the new FP nomination page) that we should take most care so that any decision should not hurt the feelings of the contributor, nor discourage them. Here we have no problem with the two FPs (File:Bismuth_crystals_and_1cm3_cube.jpg, File:Wismut_Kristall_und_1cm3_Wuerfel.jpg) which are very different, but File:Bi-crystal.jpg looks very similar to File:Wismut_Kristall_und_1cm3_Wuerfel.jpg and share the same "seat" under "Physical characteristics". Hope Heinrich will understand my point. Jkadavoor (talk) 04:37, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

My views, which I partially expressed in the above mentioned FPC. Much like Alchemist-hp, I see a difference between both images, both of them showing different patterns of the crystal. To me both added to the article, which is why I supported the FPC. Now, that aside, I do think we should attempt to define how close to each other images can be to both be in a same article and be FPs. I do not think the same object photographed from the same angle should have two FPs. How different do the objects need to be? How different does the angle need to be? Do they need to be different to the average reader or to the trained eye? The latter one is likely the key one that needs to be addressed and added to the criteria. And in all honesty, I am not sure of the answer. That is what I'm here for. --WingtipvorteX PTT ∅ 22:36, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is unnecessary for the issue of similar images to be dealt with in the rules. Voters should just keep the EV criterion in mind and oppose if they feel two images are too similar. This way it can be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 00:24, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

on closing

I just noticed the small post-closure kerfuffle that erupted at Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Bismuth synthetic crystal, but thought it should be discussed here where it will be more visible. Though I didn't share his opinion about that particular picture, Milburn is absolutely right about the closure here. The whole point of having somebody tally the votes and comment, instead of just having a bot do it or some such, is to have a neutral person come in and assess whether anything weird has happened, or there's anything that hasn't been dealt with. Closers deal with issues beyond tallying up the votes all the time--for example, if there was a significant edit that came in late, or there was an inappropriate edit uploaded over the original image. We will benefit in the long run, by avoiding pointless and unpleasant arguments, if we just make it a rule and stick to it: voters can't close. Chick Bowen 15:52, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Upon further consideration, I must agree. That little incident at the Bismuth crystal nomination accomplished very little- if anything. A new rule keeping participants in nominations from voting could avoid any further incidents. Dusty777 17:04, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
For the record, I do not object to the result- I didn't support the image, but the consensus was fairly clear. However, yes, I feel that Dusty was completely wrong to close the discussion himself. I'm not sure we need a "new" rule, as I'm pretty sure that this is a general rule already. I suppose clarity couldn't hurt. J Milburn (talk) 18:40, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it's a general rule for everything. I'm mean, for XfD where closing requires reading and evaluating consensus - well obviously. But for what is in most cases just mechanically counting votes it doesn't appear to be well-established. But yes, I agree that such a rule would make everything a lot easier. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 00:20, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I thought we had a discussion awhile back about this issue regarding letting participants close nominations if a nomination had been waiting for over a week to be closed. For nominations that have been waiting for less than a week for a close I agree that the better practice is to have someone close who didn't vote on that nomination. For nominations that have been waiting for over a week I think we can let participants close but the closes will be subject to a greater degree of review and discussion from others. Pine✉ 20:59, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The tradition used to be that if you noticed a pending closure for a nomination on which you'd voted, you could ask (on this talk page, for instance) if anyone objects to you closing it, with a proposed outcome. You would then wait either for another to close it, or for seconding of your proposed closure. Samsara (FA • FP) 19:45, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Picture quality assessment

At Wikipedia:Wikipedia Takes America/Chicago, we are running a contest this month related to improving WP through pictures taken at our event on September 29. It has come to my attention that I will need some people versed in assessing picture quality to assess whether certain image replacements have actually improved WP. Does anyone volunteer to assess our image replacements for propriety.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 19:11, 7 October 2012 (UTC)--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 19:11, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • E.g., the majority of my own contest related contributions have been image replacements at Wikipedia:Wikipedia Takes America/Chicago/User:TonyTheTiger-Photos.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 19:13, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'll volunteer to make those checks, if there is a list of pictures that was potentially put as the replacement somewhere... If you can accept that I strongly discourage a photographer self-placing their own images in articles, specifically when it comes to replacing existing images or putting them in info-boxes, since MOST of the time they're replacing a better image (it's sometimes hard for someone to be very self-critical). I'll be sure to render my opinion if an image is better or not that was replaced, if any replacements took place. :P — raekyt 04:56, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • Thanks for volunteering. I will get you more details next week. It seems that the contest was only taken remotely seriously be a few of the entrants.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 05:02, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • What about banning self nomination here? I’ve no problem with self nominations in Commons where photographers dominate (and Wikipedia editors notice them only when they get promoted as a FP/QI/VI); whereas this place should be more for article editors. I don’t think it is practical to ban a photographer from self-placing their own images in articles even though sometimes they're replacing a better image (Further, sometimes other editors notice them only when they are placed in articles.). Moreover many photographers are article editors too. Banning self nominations will be a first step to discourage replacing existing better images. Jkadavoor (talk) 07:02, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • It happens all the time, hopefully many are caught by regular editors of the article, whenever I see a bad image self-nominated here I go and check the pages it's on and see if they replaced something better with it, more often then not they do and I revert that change... I don't think we can ban self-nomination since the majority that occurs here is from very well known high quality photographers too.. we don't get TONS of crap self-nominations, or if we do get one it's usually a one-off event. — raekyt 00:40, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • I'm not sure that banning self-noms or self-placement is helpful though. I completely agree about the annoyance of good photos being replaced by inferior ones but in my opinion, it's not a significant problem caused by FPC as I think most of the self-nominators are generally only nominating photos that are genuinely high quality and of good encyclopaedic value. From my experience, many of the articles are simply not trafficked by enough people to get proper consensus about image replacement in any reasonably time frame. Often the only person who responds to a query happens to be the person whose photo is in jeopardy of being replaced/demoted, which is an equally problematic conflict of interest. I'm more in favour of Being Bold when it comes to image placement and if there's controversy, THEN bring it to the talk page. Ðiliff «» (Talk) 22:11, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • Sounded like a cool contest, although I'd wonder the quality of pictures one could achieve in just one day, maybe some sort of month-long contest or something giving people plenty of time to plan and execute better quality photos. A rush through one day seems to promote more snapshotty photos than when you have plenty of time to execute a good one. Some thoughts for ya to think about. — raekyt 05:20, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nomination

Hi, I would like to nominate

86.160.84.230 (talk) 21:26, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You are welcome to nominate it, following the instructions provided on the Project page. However, I can tell you now that it is unlikely to pass, as it is below the minimum resolution requirements as per the criteria. Ðiliff «» (Talk) 22:13, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I didn't think I could do that without being logged on, so I was thinking someone else could do it on my behalf. However, if it's certain to fail on technical requirements then there's no point. That's a shame because it is a good picture IMO. 86.160.84.230 (talk) 00:18, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You would need to have a logged-in user create the nomination page. It is a shame that the image is a somewhat low resolution. You may try emailing the author to have them release a higher resolution image :) Jujutacular (talk) 01:13, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've actually already sent the author Flickr mail a minute ago. JJ Harrison (talk) 01:15, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Here it is:

--JJ Harrison (talk) 10:15, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nice! I actually had an edit conflict with Diliff yesterday and just discarded my edit, but it would have been a remark that this is a very nice find. Great to have a decent resolution of it. --Dschwen 14:25, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Commenting on nominations

Hi, is there a rule that only people logged on and with accounts can comment on nominations? 81.159.107.19 (talk) 01:26, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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