Talk:Green Grow the Rushes, O

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I have always understood the two lily white boys as referring to the Princes in the tower. They were reputed to have been murdered by their uncle, King Richard III. The symbol of the House of York is the white rose. Covered all in green-o refers to the burial of their bodies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bighuggy (talk • contribs) 13:30, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

[1]

Three rivals could be Ocean-land-air or the three popes during the western schism. (but this is unsourced so I'm writing here).

"My only source for this is what we used to sing in childhood in the westcountry (Devon, UK) - "Five for the five bars at your gate" - just another variant."
I couldn't find any references to this variant on google, so I removed it entirely. It could be widespread, or it could be limited to the author's family! If anybody else has heard this variant, please re-insert it as an alternate lyric. --Spudtater 12:56, 10 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"a folk song popular in England, Scotland, and Wales" - I don't think it is popular in Scotland and Wales. This song has always struck me as being very English. The Robert Burns' "Green grow the rushes O" is a popular folk song in Scotland.

I heard a song that is clearly related to this one at a performance of the SF Bay Christmas Revels last night. According to their program note, it is "a counting song ... from Devon and Cornwall. Sometimes called the 'Dilly Song', [it is] related to Green Grow the Rushes-O, but contains more ancient and universal images."

And here are the count items (I'm using their capitalizations verbatim):
One and all alone
Two Christmas babes in green
Three Great Rivals
Four Seasons of the year
Five Symbols at your door
Six Proud Walkers
Seven Stars in the Sky
Eight for the Hour of Morning's Break
Nine for the Pale Moonshine
Ten April Rainers
Eleven maids in a dance
Twelve Months One after Another

Quite a lively song, at least in this performance. Can't recall the tune, but remember that it's not quite as arpeggio-driven as "Green." It does have the same call and response structure (though it begins each verse with something like "What shall I sing of?")

70.137.145.84 18:16, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I have some interesting ideas about 3 through 1. Three rivals could refer to the three peoples whose bodies are being chewed on by Lucifer in Dante's Inferno,Judas, Brutus and Cassius. The two kids in green could refer to the two boys who, after the reserection, were either the first to see the empty cave or actually saw Jesus (I forget what actually happened, I just seem to remember two boys). And for the one alone. I'm pretty sure it refers to Jesus himself, refering both to his stint in the wilderness and simply the fact that he was alone in his suffering and such, though if what you say is true about the origins, then Jesus wouldn't make much sense, though it seems reasonable. Steeley42 07:32, 24 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am removing the following section,

"Also in the Bible, Jesus tells a story about girls going to a wedding- some did not bring extra oil for their lamps and had to go back for more, therefore missing the wedding. The other girls, however, brought extra oil for their lamps, hence "bright shiners".""

Because the story in question regards 10 girls, 5 of whom forget extra oil and 5 who bring it. Absolutely nothing about 9 anythings in the story. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.131.135.201 (talk) 20:40, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I always sing 9 proud walkers and assumed that they are the 9 of the ten lepers that Jesus healed who didn´t come back to thank him, and then 6 bright shiners ... but I have no sources for this. 5 symbols at your door, I assume are the 5 wounds from the nails on the cross of Jesus and then the spear in his side ... but again no sources for this at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.191.225.98 (talk) 17:00, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It has always seemed to me that the 'three rivals' refers to the three peaks in Wales known as Yr Eifl in Welsh and corrupted into The Three Rivals in English.

Also, I learned the text as the six wide walkers which never made any sense to me but makes waters seem like a better word than walkers -- the six wide waters. But of course aren't there seven seas?

I was taught that the three rivals referred to the judgement of Paris, when he had to choose the most beautiful of three goddesses (or was it two goddesses and a mortal woman?).

Could it not mean the three branches of the Christian church (Roman Catholic, Protestant and Eastern Orthodox)? 84.70.185.231 09:55, 29 January 2007 (UTC)- JP[reply]

In From Hell (Alan Moore and Eddie Campbell's graphic novel based on the Jack the Ripper murders) it is suggested that the three rivals are Jubela, Jubelo and Jubelum, the killers of Hiram Abiff in Masonic tradition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.219.152.63 (talk) 12:14, 19 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

When I originally learned this song at primary school, the textbook stated that Two, two, the lilly-white boys, clothed all in green O! was a reference to Jesus and his cousin John the Baptist. It's an easy fit to Jesus - lilly white for purity and perfection, green because this is the usual colour of priestly robes in the Catholic Church and Jesus is regarded as the prototype of the Christian priesthood. Not quite as easy a fit to John the Baptist, though.

The alteration of April rainers to eight bold rangers may be partly influenced by a parallel with six proud walkers, and also by the desire to get the word eight into the line. There's a similar parallel between nine bright shiners and seven stars in the sky, which may have suggested it.

--PeteBleackley 09:12, 4 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I definitely favour the interpretation of the Holly King and the Oak King being the two lily-white boys. It sounds a lot more Pagan than Christian to me!202.86.97.52 21:43, 10 September 2006 (UTC)Kate Rockpool[reply]

I do like my suggestion of the Synoptic Gospels for the "rivals" (well, I would, wouldn't I?)

But it does rather assume that elementary hermeneutics was well known to the originators of the song or the people who passed it on, eventually to my 4th grade teacher. And too the vague similarity of the song to "The Ash Grove" tells in favor of the Welsh mountains. However, a mention of the Synoptic Gospels can hardly be a bad thing.

Either way. Chop my suggestion if you think it's intrusive. No bad feelings on my part.

Revbob (talk) 01:14, 3 April 2008 (UTC))[reply]

I have always thought that the lily white boys were the Prices in the Tower. Bighuggy (talk) 13:33, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Does anyone know where I can find the Hebrew version? Zargulon 18:06, 3 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And are we sure that the claim of Hebrew origin isn't a garbled reference to Echad Mi Yodea? --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 11:59, 2 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Almost certainly someone is referring to Echad Mi Yodea, which isn't ancient though might be earlier than Green Grow the Rushes, and is structured very similarly Ariehkovler (talk) 18:49, 21 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The page lists "Children Go Where I Send Thee" as an alternate title, but it isn't really- it's a related, but entirely different song! Should this be elucidated? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.2.42.105 (talk) 14:44, 8 December 2006 (UTC).[reply]

I've tagged this article as unreferenced, because it cites no sources at all despite making many claims about the interpretation of the song. While I know nothing about it myself, I am sure that if these are the accepted interpretations then there has got to be a good, reliable source out there describing them. Confusing Manifestation 00:02, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Where is St George: Pagan Imagery in English Folk Song by R.J. Stewart contains many of the interpretations used in this article. http://www.rjstewart.net/st-george.htm (83.13.39.98 (talk) 20:07, 7 April 2008 (UTC))[reply]

I removed "The I Ching contains the interesting proverb that "When three meet together, doubts arise among them", although it probably has no bearing on the interpretation of this song" from the three-rivals section because it not only are the I Ching and this song unrelated, but the quoted proverb doesn't even have anything to do with rivalry. I also removed the word Rasanayagam, formerly the last word of the article, at the end of the parenthetical note about the trinity, because I couldn't understand how it related. If there was a person named Rasanayagam who said something relavent on this topic, that should be stated more clearly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.168.208.62 (talk) 19:37, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Three: (I think that rival has an earlier meaning -middle English?- quite different to the present-day usage, i.e. PARTNERS. If so, this would remove the ojections that this verse is indeed referring to the trinity. Rasanayagam.)

You're right: "rivals" used to mean "partners". cf http://machaut.uchicago.edu/?resource=Webster%27s&word=rival&use1913=on. I've added this to the article Ariehkovler (talk) 15:59, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Two: The two boys being Jesus and his cousin John the Baptist might well be the correct interpretation. Lilywhite meaning sinless. Also I have read somewhere, and it should be possible to verify this, that in Jewish tradition of long ago, the young children were actually dressed in green on certain important religious days and acted out scriptural scenes to entertain the family and guests. One: (There is no conflict here with Christian beliefs which is the existence of ONE God, the Unity of Father,Son and Spirit forming One Godhead.Rasanayagam.)

Moved these statements by User:Rasanayagam from article page to discussion page, as they are phrased as personal comment--Bookgrrl ^holler/lookee here 01:56, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone familiar with the version of this song that starts with "Fat grow the buffalo" ? To my knowledge and from when I sang it, the remaining verses 2-12 were the same...--Paul McDonald (talk) 04:31, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

According the Wiki article on Gringo that word originated from this song (green grow = gringo). From the Spanish - American war it seems. SmokeyTheCat 11:17, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This kind of uncited speculation may have been fine back in 2005 but it's just embarrassing now. In places even the authors admit they're just guessing. Unfortunately, removing every uncited claim wouldn't leave much. Does anyone know of reliable sources, or is some ruthless pruning in order here? I've fixed the "B" class. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:40, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I just searched this song and found the page very useful, I don't think it's embarrassing. The song is extremely well known and extremely curious. Like everything here, citations would help, but a lack of them is not a reason to pull it. Conjecture and guesswork are helpful in this situation. We have little else.Thelisteninghand (talk) 20:15, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have no citation to say these pages should be linked. It's just obvious.Thelisteninghand (talk) 20:32, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The five symbols Christians often put on their door are the Greek letters "ɪ k θ ə s" which spells "fish" in Koine Greek.^[1] It's the first thing I thought of when I heard the words of the song. I wonder if it was as popular a door sign in England of the early 1800s as it was in the U.S. in the 1970s. That might explain one interpretation of the fifth verse. I feel it's important enough that it should be included on the article page, but I feel less than confident as an very 'green' editor to add it without more research. Thus, I post it here. As a random aside, I also wonder if the jumble of variants of the song indicate an attempt to erase a bit of non-Christian or pagan cultural memory with lyrics more acceptable to the dominant culture. It's a curious verse which begs for idle speculation. Dwilliamshome (talk) 16:04, 6 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]