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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Coffeepusher (talk | contribs) at 06:15, 24 January 2008 (→Speculative fiction: a plug for the appropriatness of science fiction.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Former featured article candidateScientology is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination was archived. For older candidates, please check the archive.
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DateProcessResult
January 19, 2004Refreshing brilliant proseNot kept



Cult status?

Here scientology is referred to as a "cult", but surely it is more of a world-affirming religion? World affirming religions are tolerant of peoples religious beliefs - even it's own members (for example some scientologists are catholic) and don't force its members to cut themselves off from their friends, family and society (as a cult would) but rather try and make the world a better place through scientology?

Any criticism is welcome or if anyone has anything more to add, please do. I just think that that should be clarified in the article itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CaptinHairybely (talk • contribs) 00:09, 27 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A number of major news organizations, academics, and novelists have reported that Scientology is a cult. It's not up to Wikipedians to decide whether or not they are—that would be original research. Instead, we try to make the article match the information given by the reliable sources out there. This is a controversial article with editors of many opinions, so we follow the rules strictly. Foobaz·o< 02:15, 27 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And a number of major news organizations, academics, and novelists have reported that Scientology is NOT a cult. Opinions, opinions and opinions. Sadly both sides need to be documented regarless of how ignorant they are. Bravehartbear (talk) 08:33, 27 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, Bravehartbear has a point. It's probably presumptuous at this point to use the loaded word "cult" except to state that "some" have called Scientology a cult. Scientology certainly has cult-like or conspiratorial elements (charismatic leader, repression of alternate points of view through misuse of copyright law and ingrained doublethink), but also has elements of a "life-affirming religion". Certainly the Church is neither complete evil nor purely saintly. We should keep in mind the need to merely point out both points of view and leave personal investment out of this.71.35.252.65 (talk) 00:59, 17 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If those are the only requirements, then no religion can be or not be a cult, because there are always going to be people who say that it is, and people who say that it isn't. Amphibienne (talk) 08:41, 19 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is an interesting point of discussion. CaptinHairybely, one of the things that makes Wikipedia work is that it uses reliable sources (I highly recommend you read that policy in its entirety, by the way). One example of a reliable source would be a news magazine with a strong history and reputation for basic fact-checking, such as Time or Newsweek, or the peer-reviewed books and articles of academic scholars. The interesting thing is that the materials produced by the subject of an article on Wikipedia are not generally accepted as reliable sources:

Questionable sources
Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for fact-checking. Such sources include websites and publications that express views that are widely acknowledged as extremist, are promotional in nature, or rely heavily on rumors and personal opinions. Questionable sources should only be used in articles about themselves ... Articles about such sources should not repeat any contentious claims the source has made about third parties, unless those claims have also been published by reliable sources.

— Wikipedia:Verifiability#Questionable_sources (emphasis added

Generally speaking, the only things we can use Church of Scientology-produced material to support are statements like "The Church describes Scientology as..." and "According to the Church..." We can't use any material they provide to support a statement of fact, because it is automatically biased, and by definition not peer-reviewed.

To a large extent, the same applies to certain critical websites. It's all about peer-review and fact-checking, and many critics do not have established track records for either.

One difference -- and I'm afraid this puts the Church at a bit of a disadvantage here -- is that several of the critics do have established track records and scholarly credentials. But in the Church's favor, as Bravehartbear pointed out, there have also been a few peer-reviewed "news organizations, academics, and novelists" that support the Church's stance that Scientology is a religion. There are sections of the article that reflect that.

Basically, if a major media outlet or academic publication fact-checks statements from the Church or a critic and finds the statements verifiable, then we can use them, but otherwise they're assumed to be biased. --GoodDamon 21:27, 27 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's a cult, unfounded beliefs, totally new ideas, and very controlling and extorting of its members. Reapermage 00:36, 10th December 2007 GMT —Preceding unsigned comment added by Reapermage1990 (talk • contribs) 00:37, 10 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's a cult but it's recongized as a religion by many governments including that of the United States so it should be referred to as such. Maybe refer to it as a cult if/when it loses it's status as a government recongized religion. Also, is Scientology considered a religion by the UN or do they have no stance on that? FalseMyrmidon (talk) 00:17, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The first definition of cult in Dictionary.com is "a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies." So it's a cult... and so is Christianity, so is Islam, so is Buddhism etc etc etc. Bazonka (talk) 12:46, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

that is a true deffinition, however that isn't the one we are talking about. That isn't even the definition that is commonly accepted when people say the word "cult". this discussion is better explained by the sociological definition of a Cult which states (I am paraphrasing, however I can get the source if neccisary) an orgonization that is charictorised by four things 1. strong central leadership, 2. hidden agenda/knowlage (they don't let you know everyhting about the orgonization untill you have become invested in the group), 3. Promice of special powers only avalible through the groups central leadership (Sobriaty through the central leaders teachings, promice of salvation through loyalty of the leader) 4. coersive or brainwashing tecqnecs.
when I hear the word cult that is what I think of...not the Boy Scouts religious services. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Coffeepusher (talk • contribs) 17:05, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If anyone gets a chance to check this source, there is an interesting article on Scientology in it related to your "cult status" question, from above:

Cheers, Cirt (talk) 05:56, 19 December 2007 (UTC).[reply]


It does not in any way improve this article to argue over whether Scientology "is" or "is not" a cult. There is not one true definition of "cult"; the word is largely used as a slur. We are much better off describing what Scientologists believe, what Scientologists do, and the history of the Scientology organization -- and leave it up to readers whether these things show it to be a cult, a praiseworthy religion, an organized crime syndicate, a happy summer camp, or a high-heeled shoe. --FOo (talk) 17:15, 19 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree wholeheartedly. Foobaz·o< 17:51, 19 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I vote for high-heeled shoe. --JustaHulk (talk) 15:03, 20 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Scientology being controversial since its inception

The comment that describes Scientology as such should be backed up with a citation. If it cannot be backed up with a citation, the comment should be removedJohn196920022001 (talk) 01:35, 7 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see why. That sentence is easily backed up by cites already present in that paragraph. You can't expect every single sentence to require individual citations. --GoodDamon 17:38, 7 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No, but that is a sentence that does need citing. If I wanted to slander the topic that's a sentence I might write when it might not be true, it's high risk for bias if it remains uncited. SGGH speak! 19:57, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I believe that TIME's Remember Venus? used to be cited at that spot. It's probably wandered over to another part of the intro. AndroidCat (talk) 07:40, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tom Cruiseread the article everything is controversial it is wack! The whole article and history is about that any religion in a World that thinks the religion is a cult it will be controversial. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.66.116.58 (talk) 16:30, 19 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Too long?

Is this article too long? GusChiggins21 (talk) 09:33, 17 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It seems that this is being fix now. Bravehartbear (talk) 11:33, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Even with ADD (grin), I found the article well-written, fascinating, and of appropriate length.
--UnicornTapestry (talk) 02:25, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We should really pare down the external links to those that are notable. Of course, the Clambake site is notable. Other than that, maybe Rick Ross? LMT is notable but I don't think I saw it in there. I think that is about it. The rest are non-notable, or copyvio sites (as is Ross), or YouTube. So I am thinking maybe three Church sites, three critical sites and are there any notable links in the others? Thoughts? --JustaHulk (talk) 16:05, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It irks me to remove links to the church's own websites which show just how hypocritical and deceptive they really are, but you are correct about the external link policies, to whit: Wikipedia articles should include links to Web pages outside Wikipedia if they are relevant. Such pages could contain further research that is accurate and on-topic; information that could not be added to the article for reasons such as copyright or amount of detail (such as professional athlete statistics, movie or television credits, interview transcripts, or online textbooks); or other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article for reasons unrelated to their reliability (such as reviews and interviews). The external links in the article probably could be trimmed down a bit. TechBear (talk) 16:20, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate you providing the reference and I appreciate your honesty in reverting yourself. Let me say that, as a Scientologist, I find the RFW site and most of the other chilling effects tactics reprehensible. I am not so disinclined toward legal action and threat of legal action but toward these extra-legal activities such as RFW and counter-picketing. One thing we, as Wikipedia editors, have to be careful of is a kind of sneaky original research. I know that was not your intent but I refer to trying to make a point not made in RS by means of external links or other "sneaky" methods. External links must serve the same purpose as the article, and they should be equally reliable and NPOV. Of course, the website of the topic of the article would be exempt from that requirement but Wikipedia is not the place to push non-RS opinions and non-notable off-site links. Since criticism of Scientology is a notable topic then a couple of notable critical sites have a place here. A few more notable sites could also be linked from the Scientology controversy article. What we have now goes well beyond any reasonable interpretation of the intent and policy related to external links. They exist in the article to serve purposes that are not Wikipedia's. --JustaHulk (talk) 17:11, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Check the history: I was not the one who inserted the link in the first place, I simply reverted your undo (and then reverted my undo of your undo.) The website in question certainly looks and feels like one maintained by the CoS, which is why I put it back in. Referencing websites operated by the topic of an article is NPOV, no matter what the content of the website might be. That does not necessarily mean the site meets the criteria for a referenced external link, however, which is why I took it back out. TechBear (talk) 17:40, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I know that you did not insert the link. And, as I mention above, I agree that websites by the subject of the article are fit links and need not meet WP:NPOV or WP:V standards. My objection is that there is no proof anywhere that I know of that this site has any official connection to the Church other than perhaps that a Scientologist runs it. Until such proof is provided, it cannot be put here to represent "the hypocrisy of Scientology" or whatever is looking to be pushed. --JustaHulk (talk) 18:06, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is imperative that we include religiousfreedomwatch.org in this section. Joel Phillips who is a Scientologist is the registered owner for the "Church". This site is probably the most important site that the "Church" owns. It lists every big time critic of Scientology. The site lists all of the facts that the "Church" believes is true about these people. It lists any crime that they believe the critic of their "Church" has ever committed. It even has a reward of $5000 against the person who made threats against it. The Scientology website includes articles that show the other side to something they believe is critical to Scientology. They list hate groups as anyone or any group critical of ONLY Scientology. They list religious experts as people that are Scientologists. This site is huge. It's updated all the time and shows up everywhere on all major search engines for every possible search you can imagine. Scientologists should be proud of this website. This website sums up everything that Scientology and the "Church" are all about. This website is Scientology, therefore it should be listed in the Scientology web links section. All in favor say "yes". All opposed, say "no. Thank you! K69 (talk) 17:42, 9 January 2008 (UTC) I vote "yes" K69 (talk) 17:44, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No. The site is a non-RS hate site that has no self-proclaimed or otherwise-sourced official connection to "Scientology" or the Church of Scientology. It is most assuredly not "everything that Scientology and the "Church" are all about" (that claim is unknowledgable, insulting, or both). That the site may or may not be run by a Scientologist is irrelevant. It is not a "Scientology site". --JustaHulk (talk) 18:01, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No. Sourcing is not established, official status is not established. As such, it is simply a record of one person's opinions, and clearly does not qualify. John Carter (talk) 19:07, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No. For the reasons listed above. It doesn't pass muster for WP:EL. --GoodDamon 19:46, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No Although I actually believe the church does run it, it still dosn't give any information about Scientology itself, any actuall information about scientology on this site is mixed up with alot of gobily gook and difficult to glean. Coffeepusher (talk) 20:08, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No. Raymond Hill (talk) 20:59, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No. Not even if CoS slipped up and admitted that they run it. AndroidCat (talk) 21:26, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No Personal websites are not allowed in Wikipedia. That same rules goes for xenu.net, operation clambake and Rick Ross. Now this bring into question: David Touretzky because he uses the university network to spread his junk it doesn't mean the his university aproves of what he does... Well anyway nice link but it doesn't seem it is connected to the church. The style is too agresive, it almost mimics the critics. So No, can't use it. Bravehartbear (talk) 12:01, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The sites you mention are not personal websites. Their purpose is not to tell you about the people running them and their personal interests. It is to provide a public service. Foobaz·o< 14:50, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I am sure that Religious Freedom Watch feels that they are providing a public service also. So which hateful and deceptive "public service" sites do we allow and which do we not allow? Trick question, of course, as none of them are acceptable. --JustaHulk (talk) 19:03, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This is an encyclopedia only reliable new sources that double check their sources are allowed. Personal web sites that are registered to an individual do not qualify as an encyclopedia reference. Is all in the Wikipedia policies. This was priory discussed long ago by user Misou. And it was determined that personal websites that are registered to a single owner are not allowed in Wikipedia. The discussion you guys just had about notable web sites is irrelevant. A web site doesn't get in Wikipedia because it is notable. It gets in Wikipedia because it is accurate and NPOV. Bravehartbear (talk) 21:16, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
JustaHulk: I agree, RFW is not a personal web page. However, this alone is not enough to qualify a link for inclusion. There are many other criteria which a site must also satisfy. RFW does not meet all of them, but as far as I know, there are no criteria that Clambake fails to meet. If you disagree, please point out exactly what makes Clambake unsuitable.
Bravehartbear: Just because a site is run by a single person does not make it a personal website. Clambake is not a personal website, and is allowed in Wikipedia. I didn't agree with Misou then, and I don't agree with him now.
Foobaz·o< 01:49, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is an encyclopedia

What is allowed in Wikipedia are covered in WP:EL. This is what it says: Links normally to be avoided "Except for a link to a page that is the subject of the article or an official page of the article subject—and not prohibited by restrictions on linking—one should avoid:"

2. Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research. See Reliable sources for explanations of the terms "factually inaccurate material" or "unverifiable research".
12. Links to blogs and personal web pages, except those written by a recognized authority.

Also is usefull to read Wikipedia:Neutral point of view Bravehartbear (talk) 21:57, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The "except those written by a recognized authority" is the sticking point, I believe. Some of those links Justanother removed today certainly don't belong to recognized authorities, but a couple do. --GoodDamon 22:08, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As always, the definition of personal web page on that problematic page seems to get skipped over. AndroidCat (talk) 22:29, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If you can specificy which should be returned and why, that would probably help a lot. John Carter (talk) 22:30, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm concerned that Touretzky's site in particular passes muster as one operated by a "recognized authority," as the site and its operator are largely regarded as expert by reliable news sources. Sorry, I thought I'd mentioned that earlier, but I'm pretty busy today. --GoodDamon 23:43, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Damon, can you find any RS that refers to Touretzky's site in a manner that would warrant inclusion as an external link in this article? Otherwise, his site can go in his article. Can you even find RS that refers to Touretzky as an "expert", a term pretty loosely thrown around by the press. I usually see him referred to as a "critic". Neither Touretzky nor his websites are anywhere near NPOV or reliable. They are one-sided and consist mainly of his one-sided and extreme opinions. Inclusion of them does not serve the purposes of Wikipedia but only the purposes of POV-pushers. --JustaHulk (talk) 14:00, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In other words, something like this from the SF Chronicle [1]:

"The teacher has teamed with David Touretzky, a computer science research professor at Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh and a free-speech advocate who runs an anti-Narconon Web site that includes some controversial material."

hardly paints Touretzky as an "expert" - the paper went to five of what they really consider experts.

"Those ideas are rejected by the five medical experts contacted by The Chronicle, who say there is no evidence to support them."

--JustaHulk (talk) 14:11, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
But his websites do give information about the church that would be to extensive to put into the article itself, spacificly the otIII and the NOT's. The fact that the church suied him to take them down, and the government found them credible enough to keep them up (not beeing lible or slander in the ruling).
He is also seen as an expert by the critics of scientology, beeing quoted many times on operation clam bake among other sources. He is also notable enough to recieve a posting on religious freedom watch. Coffeepusher (talk) 17:06, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just to clarify -- "personal Web page" does not mean a Web page maintained by an individual expert or researcher on a subject. It means a Web page that is autobiographical, in the nature of a personal blog or journal. --FOo (talk) 23:15, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thus meaning that not every "personal Web page" reflects this definition. --Olberon (talk) 12:13, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Aliens

I did not see what any mention of Aliens in the article.Isnt that A beleif of Scientology?It would also explain why people think its a cult. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.1.245.18 (talk) 00:09, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What's so cult-like about believing in aliens? Many rational, scientific people believe there is other intelligent life in the universe. Foobaz·o< 00:24, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See Space opera in Scientology scripture. --FOo (talk) 04:20, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Every and each link that some wants taken away should be discussed PRIOR to deletion. NOT the other way around. It took a while for these links to have ended up there. Therefore this should not be resorted to by some person just like that. In addition in the previous discussions various have uttered protests to various links included in this attempted mass deletion. --Olberon (talk) 12:23, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rather than some generic "they are there so they are OK" argument and a mass reversion (i.e. edit-war), you are encouraged to nominate links that you think are appropriate for reinclusion (or removal). There is already a discussion above on the Touretzky link, feel free to add your opinion there. What you are proposing is NOT how Wikipedia works. See WP:BOLD. I was not reckless and I pared the links down based on their notability and relevance to the article. --JustaHulk (talk) 15:16, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For your information YOU instigated an edit war by doing as you did! You ONLY may remove the links that have actually been discussed. You instead INCLUDED a whole bunch of other ones. Your reference referral obviously does not apply here. I oppose your actions and if needed I will report the matter on the board for adminstrators. This is supposed to be a discussion page, not a mass deletion festival. The fact you have to deal with is that in the previous discussions objections have been uttered about that you had included links that were not felt falling in the claimed category. You propose links to be deleted and not mass delete and then propose a discussion which are to be returned. That is absurd. Will I also remind you that these Scientology pages are in fact protected with a lock. --Olberon (talk) 15:34, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think you misunderstand what I did. You say "You instead INCLUDED a whole bunch of other ones." but that is not true - I added no links. The links I removed were inappropriate under WP:EL. You are, of course, welcome to report my actions and I encourage you to do so. Looking at your edit history, I see that this is not the first time you have taken a similar stance on inclusion of links. Previously, it was the Michel Snoeck page that you felt should not have been deleted. Is there one of the links that I deleted that you particularly feel belongs in the article? Again, Wikipedia is not intended to be edited in this pussy-footed manner you describe. Those links did not belong in the article and I removed them. That is what any editor can and should do. If I made a mistake in any particular case then I am more than willing to discuss it here. --JustaHulk (talk) 15:46, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have to agree with JustaHulk. The guideline regarding external links does present some fairly clear rules regarding inclusion. If anyone does feel that certain links mean that standard, however, they are welcome to indicate which links they are referring to and why. John Carter (talk) 16:32, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am missing support for JustaHulks argumentation. The series of links that were removed were inappropriate per his personal interpretation. Furthermore notability are not the only criteria that should be considered. Talkpages are there for reason to discuss matters. Objections have been uttered in the previous discussions, for this simple reason I reverted this mass delete effort. --Olberon (talk) 16:38, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Olberon, you edit-warred with me over this and I have reported that on WP:AE. You went 2RR and I will not go more than one revert on a probation page so your version currently stands. I urge you to self-revert and back away from your edit-warring. --JustaHulk (talk) 16:42, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I did not edit-war anything. I simply object to your mass deletion solely based on supposed notability/non-notability per your personal opinion. My main motivation is the simple fact that the earlier discussions showed protest. Therefore I ask for a simple argumentation for each link. At this time you are threatening and attempting to intimidate me over this. --Olberon (talk) 16:55, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I very strongly disagree with the above. Particularly in a controversial page such as this one, it might even be possible that adding links, particularly if they are questionable, might be considered inappropriate content. Therefore, unless I am to remove the links on the basis of their inclusion is questioned and no clear reasons for their individual, specific inclusion given, I am requesting the clear justification of every recently included external link. Should I not receive such, then I may myself decide that their significance has not yet been demonstrated and remove those which have not been given credible reason for inclusion myself. John Carter (talk) 17:28, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just passing by, I noticed the above controversy about the list of external links. For what it's worth, I'd like to propose that the criterion for judgment here should not be focused primarily on talk page protocol, but on how the list of links serves readers of the article. In my view, it is worth considering that this article is relatively long and contains more than 200 notes, many of which include external links. There are also many internal links embedded in the body of the article that lead to related articles which, in turn, offer still more external links. I think it's fair to ask whether an "external links" section is needed at all in this case. Given the sprawl of the article, I'd say yes to that; a very concise list would be useful to someone who wants to go exploring the subject without reading the whole entry. I think Justahulk was right to cut the sprawling link list down. I'd suggest the list be trimmed down to the following, or something close: Official Scientology links: The CoS main page, "What is Scientology" FAQ, and the Scientology Handbook. Critical resources: Operation Clambake, Xenu TV. Independent Scientologists: Int'l Freezone Association. --BTfromLA (talk) 22:02, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That proposal certainly has logical merit.
Incidentally, my last edit was truncated and would, if not for space limitations, have read: "When first proposed, if challenged, inclusion of an external link requires justification; if unchallenged then its long term and enduring presence indicates consensus so that subsequent removal (except for BLP violations, etc,) should be discussed and consensus reached before removal." Alice✉ 22:09, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Alice, you merely continued an edit-war not supported by the established editors here on either "side" of the issue. What BT proposed is little different from what I did. Your idea that we have a bunch of discussion before making an edit violates the basic principles of this project, i.e. WP:BOLD, and is self-defeating as little editing would get done if we each wait for "committee approval". There is no committee, there is simply, in this case, rough agreement that something needed to be done. I did something and actions like yours in "protecting" earlier versions are not helpful and border on WP:OWN. --JustaHulk (talk) 22:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And I would appreciate it if another editor would restore my edit as I did one revert already and will not do another. Thanks. --JustaHulk (talk) 23:01, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Well, almost... I incorporated my minor changes to your earlier pruning. Tweak if needed. BTfromLA (talk) 03:26, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough, BT, but I have a couple objections to the XenuTV site. One is I question its notability and the other and more decisive point is that it is a clearly a collection of copyright violation and that is something that we should not be promoting. From WP:EL#Restrictions on linking:

For policy or technical reasons, editors are restricted from linking to the following, without exception:

1. Sites that violate the copyrights of others per contributors' rights and obligations should not be linked. . . Knowingly directing others to a site that violates copyright may be considered contributory infringement. . . Linking to a page that illegally distributes someone else's work sheds a bad light on Wikipedia and its editors.

That is pretty clear and XenuTV clearly is an inappropriate link. --JustaHulk (talk) 03:42, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There is a large amount of original XenuTV material on the site as well. AndroidCat (talk) 03:58, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My logic in short-listing XenuTV is that I think the site is of great interest to someone wanting to get the video-audio side of journalism, ex-member testimony, etc., about Scientology and related issues. (Whereas Operation Clambake serves the same purpose for text-based materials.) Copyvio may be present, though I'm not sure it's such a slam dunk as you assert. As AndroidCat points out, for much of the material there--perhaps the bulk of it, though I haven't tried to measure--copyright is not at issue. I assume you are pointing to things things like the Ted Koppel interview with David Miscavige, which is both transcribed on the site and made visible inline through links to YouTube. I don't know where "fair use" begins and ends in such a situation. If folks who are better aquainted with the nuances of the wikipedia policy than I judge it to be out of bounds, then so be it. Personally, I don't think that a non-profit internet archive of otherwise difficult-to-see ephemeral materials that have little or no future commercial value but do have ongoing scholarly value violates the spirit of that policy. BTfromLA (talk) 05:14, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry if you feel that way, Justahulk. You're right in pointing out Wikipedia:Five pillars, but I usually interpret the fifth pillar in the light of WP:BRD and WP:Be Bold#… but don't be reckless once I see that revert warring has commenced. Alice✉ 23:12, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
With all due respect to Alice, a sow's ear does not become a silk purse if you hold on to it long enough. There could be many reasons that the EL list has not been pruned recently that have nothing to do with consensus; such as inertia, entropy, exhaustion, or choosing to deal with higher priority issues first. All parties are asked to behave themselves, as placing the article on 1 revert per person per week limit would affect all sections of the article, while hoping that "the other guys" get tagged for edit warring while you escape notice is not likely to turn out the way you want. Thatcher 02:00, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]


I like the smaller list of pages, however I would include the Touretzky pages under critical...and I agree that Xenu TV probably dosn't have encyclopedic value to it. my reasons are that they do provide information about the higher stages of Scientology.
and my 2 cents about this whole fiasco...I don't agree with mass deletes, especialy when you know it is going to cause trouble. When that delete was done the discription had the phrase "DO NOT EDIT WAR" in it, which is pritty much challanging anyone to disagree with you. Whenever I delete links that don't hold up to standard, the only notations I leave are "spam", "personal web page", "self published author"...and everyone knows what I am talking about. I believe that some of the links pruned where legitamate deletes...and I think that some of them probably should have been discussed. WP:BOLD but WP:BATTLE. on other pages, when I run into that problem I usually post 24 hrs ahead of time somthing to the effect of "I will be deleting the following...tomorow, any discussion beforehand?" and that usually avoids edit wars, and shows the other editors that I don't WP:OWN the page and I respect their opinion. Coffeepusher (talk) 04:17, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]


MMMMM hmmmmmm. Excuse me gentlemans and ladies. We are missing the point.
Extremist sources

"Organizations and individuals that are widely acknowledged as extremist, whether of a political, religious or anti-religious, racist, or other nature, should be used only as sources about themselves and their activities in articles about themselves, and even then with caution." Reference: Wikipedia:Reliable sources

It is clear to be that Xenu TV and others are anti-Scientology links and being as such should not take part of the article. There is plenty of reliables sources like newspapers and magazines and there is no need to use such links. In my opinion this are nothing else than spam and propaganda sites. Bravehartbear (talk) 11:13, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Anti-religious links are fine, it's only extremist anti-religious links that don't meet WP:RS. And even if they don't pass WP:RS, they can still be used as external links. WP:EL says we can link to "Sites which fail to meet criteria for reliable sources yet still contain information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources." Foobaz·o< 15:12, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Foobaz is correct. Braveheartbear is the one who is missing the point. The discussion is about external links, not sources for the article. The criteria for reliable sources has nothing to do with the issue at hand. BTfromLA (talk) 17:24, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree, these people like xenu.tv are 100% anti-Scientology. I doesn't get more extreminst than 100%. How much more anti-Scientology you gotta be before you are considered an extreminst. Because if it was a 100% anti-Christian organisation and those videos were anti-Christian videos it would be considered an extremist link. What is the difference? 100% is 100%. Bravehartbear (talk) 09:32, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Honestly I consider those links very unapropiate and offensive for a encyclopedia.Bravehartbear (talk) 09:34, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Bravehartbear, the discussion is about external links, not about reliable sources for the article or balanced presentation. Do you not understand the difference? If the external links were to lead to information that is clearly false or fake, that would be an issue, but that does not seem to be at issue here, either. BTfromLA (talk) 17:13, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think the link to xenu.tv should be removed because it's copyrighted and it's rich media. Foobaz·o< 17:43, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Soooo...if its like say 60% anti scientology 30% nutral and 10% "I liked battlefield earth" its ok?
I don't think it is an extremist scite (they arn't calling for people to kill scientologists, or burning tom cruse movies...they don't hire actors to scream "what are your crimes" into the camera, those are real scientologists) but I don't think it belongs as a link. my main reason is that all the information I can find on xenu tv, I can also find on clambake and I like reading better than watching videos. Coffeepusher (talk) 18:20, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
On the other hand, Church of Scientology sites are 100% pro-Scientology. It doesn't get more extremist than 100%. How much more pro-Scientology you gotta be before you are considered an extremist? (The leader of Scientology has given speeches with graphics showing psychiatrists being machine-gunned or blown-up. On that subject, a well-known Scientologist has also said "go to guns" and "no mercy". I'm not sure what they are calling for people to do, but it seems rather extremist.) I'm not being completely serious, just pointing out the fallacy of the argument to remove critical sites. AndroidCat (talk) 16:05, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tom Cruise Video

I was wondering if it should be mentioned in the article. --MahaPanta (talk) 23:30, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Major news sources are talking about it. Scientology made You Tube remove it. The New York Post still has a copy (for now) http://www.nypost.com/seven/01162008/news/nationalnews/star_raving_mad__68340.htm . It is VERY funny. Creepy even. Angry Christian (talk) 23:37, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If there is some major reaction because of the video, then yes it should probably be mentioned...however the content is not notable at all. it is your standard "buy in or get out" speech, I have heard the same rant at every school pep rally,every 12 step program, Fraturnety life, Political rallies, every church since the creation of God (and probably since the creation of fire) In fact Ralph Waldo Emmerson gave a better version. the only notable thing in the entire program is that Tom Cruse has given scientology technology to 1.037 billion people (or the ENTIRE population of Europe, Russia, and America)(note that the world population is 6.644 billion by the world population clock...so 1 out of every 7 people are scientologists...not shure if I buy that one). Coffeepusher (talk) 00:19, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here is the Video display http://gawker.com/5002269/the-cruise-indoctrination-video-scientology-tried-to-suppress —Preceding unsigned comment added by XenuCareBear (talk • contribs) 15:55, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Coffeepusher, you're missing one bit about Tom Cruise's talk. It's not just "buy in or get out", it's about erradicating all those opposed to the church (the part about SPs being something to read in history books) with no mercy. That's what makes Scientology not just laughing stock for many, but a true danger to humanity. It's not a light thing to be ignored or underestimated. 200.80.164.35 (talk) 00:54, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I understand your consern...however as for content we can use on wikipedia I stand by my statement. As tempting as it is to respond, I would only be digressing this talk page into a chat about the interpritation of the video... WP:TALK and all.Coffeepusher (talk) 07:33, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Controversy and Criticism...

"Although Scientologists are usually free to practice their beliefs, the organized church has often encountered opposition due to their strong-arm tactics directed against critics and members wishing to leave the organization." (emphasis mine) is hardly neutral POV... Livitup (talk) 04:59, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's a true but unsourced statement. It should be removed unless a reliable source is found for it. According to Tom Cruise one day CoS critics ("SPs") will exist only in history books ;-) Angry Christian (talk) 15:27, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Before removing it, keep in mind that much harsher descriptions could easily be used and sourced. At length. AndroidCat (talk) 15:51, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Then why not source it, at length as you say? Making unsourced statements about SoC using "strong arm tactics" really puts Wikipedia in a bad light. Again, I know this is true but the point is it's not sourced. Angry Christian (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 17:44, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Admition of lies

I heard an interview with the comedian Del Close who apparently shared a room with Hubbard at University. Apparently Hubbard said several times during this period that one day he would become rich by inventing a religion. Unfortunately I can't remember the source for this but I feel it is worth highlighting if anybody can find the reference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.244.73 (talk) 23:37, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I can't remember where either -- my father's been reminding me of that quote for years. I'll ask him where he remembers seeing it. I know that he read it somewhere, because he is a huge sci-fi booknerd and doesn't watch television. :) Though everyone would rage against it, I feel in my heart of hearts that such a quote fully needs to be in this article if it can be proven that LRH really did say it. Chacharu (talk) 19:42, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Broken link.

  1. 210 in the notes section directs to a not found error page.

DebbieChinique (talk) 16:34, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Suzie an "him" in a library

Scientology#Origin_and_Definition: What kind of usefull information does the sentence " Suzie and I went down to the library, and we started hauling books out and looking for words. And we finally found 'scio' and we find 'ology.' And there was the founding of that word. Now, that word had been used to some degree before. There had been some thought of this. . . . But we found that this word 'scientology,' you see—and it could have been any other word. . . ." give to the wikipedia user. I think it is a quite ridiculous sentence. Did they drink a coffee after or even a beer. Will this sentence say to us that the wörd has been found in a library. Which word shall "Scio" be. And who the hell is Suzie ? --Arcy (talk) 22:42, 19 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Weird... Your initial removal of that statement looks like this in the history. Note that it looks like you replaced a bunch of image lines, citations, etc. with redundant category entries. That's why I reverted it. But the more I look at it, the more it looks like a Wikipedia error, not a mistake on your part, so I apologize for reverting it. --GoodDamon 23:01, 19 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ok. i've some weired wp errors too (watchlist seems to be broken). --Arcy (talk) 23:20, 19 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Project Chanology

Is this worth mentioning?

[2]

--Some random jack off. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.85.232.249 (talk) 06:03, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No. --GoodDamon 06:50, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]


You sure? Ason Abdullah (talk) 08:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Positive. Some random hacker group announcing on its own page that it's going to mess with the Church of Scientology is:
  1. Not notable
  2. Not verifiable
  3. Not reliable
Wait until it gets published in a reliable news source. Then it might be included. --GoodDamon 17:43, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
[3] --84.245.22.189 (talk) 23:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Having read the article, it looks like a reference to it might be a good addition to Scientology and the internet. --GoodDamon 01:27, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. I honestly hope that the media (if it decides to cover this) takes a neutral position and refrains from calling the *chans internet terrorists. I mean honestly, Scientology had it coming. It is sad for all those that have enlisted in the religion, and supported its "teachings." They truly were taken advantage of when they were at their lows, depressed and hopeless. Their money was taken away, their lives ruined. This just can't go unnoticed.

For once, the hackers of the *chans are doing something that is moral at its core.

That might be your goal, but that is not the goal of Wikipedia. Wikipedia's goal is to create unbiased, informative encyclopedia entries, and your stated goal is incompatible with that. Wikipedia is not a platform for promoting your beliefs and point of view any more than it is a platform for Scientologists to do the same. Please keep that in mind. --GoodDamon 17:33, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. To sign your posts, which is considered polite, please include this at the end of your comments: ~~~~
Thanks. --GoodDamon 17:33, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

When I said the internet is united, I meant the major communities. I would never alter the wikipedia article, but this is a talk page. I believe this is worth mentioning, some people will disagree. I can't change that. The talk page is meant to profess your beliefs, and show your platform. And a note to the users that believe this not reliable: The *chans have already stolen documents that are restricted to Scientologists. You can search and find it, but I will not post it on wikipedia, for it is illegal content. Deleted the "internet is united" quote. Also, I was under the belief that this was discussion, not a suggestion for editing. You may disregard my argument, for until it is openly admitted by the Church itself, it ought not to be included in this article.

There is this mainstream media link: http://www.budapesttimes.hu/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4412&Itemid=1/ --Xyzzyplugh (talk) 07:29, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
WP:TALK discribes what a talk page is for...and what you discribed was a chat room or discussion board.
Oh, and No it shouldn't be included, although I really want to try out that teabag thing (just to see if it works), but unfortunatly I am over the age of 20 and have grown out of that stage of life.Coffeepusher (talk) 07:36, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion it should be noted in the article. I mean this certainly is a notable event, look at how many views there are of the youtube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCbKv9yiLiQ of Anonymous stating it's intentions. That in addition to the fact that the 'scientology' website has been shut down for the past view days makes this a very notable event in my opinion. Supra guy (talk) 21:42, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is notable enough to be mentioned, but not in this article. It more properly belongs in Scientology and the Internet or perhaps Scientology controversy. --GoodDamon 21:46, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes that seems suitable. Supra guy (talk) 02:34, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

this article is not accurate

Whom ever wrote this article must have been a scientologist. The reason they don't like psychiatry is because if a member was ever to be evaluated they will be diagnosed clinical nut jobs. This is putting it nicely. Scientology promotes itself not philosophy, religion or anything about spirituality. This is a commercial enterprise. Some people give it an example of the Amway of religions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.185.4.186 (talk) 06:40, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is not a platform for cult propaganda. Jayz0r (talk) 14:43, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Then why is this article locked and filled with nothing but pro-Scientology cult propaganda?
It states their beliefs, nothing more. Jayz0r (talk) 21:10, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Five pillars is a useful article to read. AndroidCat (talk) 21:35, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The page is currently locked, but the case referenced at the bottom should be properly cited under either Blue Book or ALWD standards. In detail, under the "Scientific criticism of Scientology beliefs" section, the correct citation should read similar to this:

U.S. v. Hubbard Electrometer, 333 F.Supp. 357, 365 (D.C.D.C. 1971).

I have taken liberties with the abbreviation of the title for the sake of clarity. If unlocked, please drop me a line and I will update.

As to the text, it should properly omit the "(333 F. Supp. 357) section, which will be in the footnote. I would also add another quote from the case which further supports the section: "The E-meter is essentially a simple galvanometer using two tin cans as electrodes. It is crude, battery-powered, and designed to measure electrical skin resistance. It is completely harmless and ineffective in itself." Id. at 359.

Gorjus (talk) 23:18, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Vandalism

Sigh... someone please remove the ballsack pic... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.180.91.136 (talk) 22:46, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I couldn't figure out where it was loading from. It's not in the article itself, so someone must have put it in one of the templates the article uses. I'm still trying to track down where. --GoodDamon 22:49, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry... I know it's vandalism and all... but I lol'd.76.116.26.154 (talk) 22:54, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It kinda fits--217.113.225.116 (talk) 23:01, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I LOL'D —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.67.31.74 (talk) 23:02, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, after looking around it looks like a ton of other pages got the same or similar vandalism, so it was definitely a non-targeted attack against a widely-used template somewhere. Still haven't found where. --GoodDamon 23:17, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I loled. Anon rule.


Scientology DoS attack

User:Hierophantasmagoria has been seeking to add a section on a reported DoS attack on the official Scientology website [4]. Unfortunately we can't use that material - it's not reliably sourced and it puts undue weight on a fairly trivial incident in Scientology's history. On the reliable sourcing point, the three sources offered are:

  1. a self-published source in the form of a "press release" issued by an entity calling itself "anonymous" and distributed through a publish-your-own-press-release service; this is completely unusable as a source (see WP:V#Self-published sources (online and paper)).
  2. a Wikinews story - WP:V#Self-published sources (online and paper) prohibits the use of open wikis, including Wikinews, as sources.
  3. a YouTube link to an unauthorised copy of a Fox News broadcast; apart from YouTube being a largely unreliable source, the link is a copyright violation and under our copyright policy we can't link to it, as it presents potential liability issues for the Wikimedia Foundation.

As for undue weight, ask yourself - how significant is it that a bunch of hackers has launched a rather ineffective DoS attack on the Scientology website? It's simply not encyclopedic information and we're not in the business of promoting the self-publicity of wannabe L33T H4CK3RZ. -- ChrisO (talk) 00:17, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

its not a DDoS attack from a load of hackers, its a DDoS attack from a load of internet users who want to take down their sites and send a message to the scientoogy ppl —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.30.111.172 (talk) 02:13, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Xenu

Could someone please add a section to the Scientology page about Xenu as there is no mention of it nor is there a link, though a very detailed page exists on Xenu itself. I personally beleive that for anyone who wants to know about Scientology, the Xenu element is too important to leave out. I only became aware of it when I tried to find out the validity of the remarks made by SouthPark creators.Qorveh (talk) 01:40, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Recent reverts

I'd just like to clarify. When I performed the revert a few minutes ago I intended to restore the whole page (reverting blanking of page). Apparently another reversion was done in the interim and my edit went over that. So whatever the dispute is about the see also section, external links etc is, I'm not part of that. Perhaps those who have concerns about that section may post their concerns here. JamesStewart7 (talk) 07:30, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Speculative fiction

I thought this had been covered ad infinitum earlier, but oh well... Prior to writing Dianetics and other Scientology texts, Hubbard was primarily known as a writer of fantasy, horror, and science-fiction (collectively known as speculative fiction these days). JustaHulk states in his edit to the intro: "that whole bit sounds forced and is unnecessary, usually "sci-fi" is added for POV purposes. "Author" is fine and leaner reads better." Now personally, I think removing it is pushing a POV that the information isn't notable or pertinent, and that including it is somehow an attack on Hubbard. I think a simple definition of what kind of author he was ("speculative fiction" is just two words) is neither "forced" nor POV-pushing. There's no shame in writing speculative fiction, and hiding what he wrote -- especially when it's already widely known -- seems both POV-pushing and obfuscatory. Furthermore, "speculative fiction" encompasses a lot more than "sci-fi," and more accurately reflects what he wrote. So... Should we describe -- again, in nonjudgmental terms -- what kind of author Hubbard was in the intro, folks? --GoodDamon 16:43, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hubbard also wrote a lot of western, detective, adventure, etc, for the Pulp magazine market and pulp writer seemed to be the most accurate description. Something has to be there or endless passers-by will insert something. AndroidCat (talk) 17:11, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And it will usually be "science fiction," which is just too imprecise. I would go with "speculative fiction" because it covers the largest amount of his body of work, but if someone comes up with something better, I'm game. --GoodDamon 17:17, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe combine the two above, with something like "Hubbard wrote extensively for the pulp magazine market, most notably in the speculative fiction area?" John Carter (talk) 17:22, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If it's too long, it'll encourage "one more thing..." edits. AndroidCat (talk) 17:32, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We already get too many of those. "Speculative fiction" is broad enough, well-documented, and thankfully just two words. I think it should go back in. All in favor? --GoodDamon 17:39, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No objections here. John Carter (talk) 17:44, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All right, I'm putting it back then. --GoodDamon 17:57, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(left) I can go with whatever the consensus is. Obviously, sci-fi is almost always added as a POV-push. Hubbard was always an author. By the time he formed Scn, he was not a fiction author at all but had been running Dianetics for a few years. So, by rights, Scn was not started by a fiction author because that is not what he was or had been for some time when he started it. I had removed the "author" bit entirely a while back and it stood until another red account inserted sci-fi and GoodDamon well-meaningly tried to make something better of that. Sorry, but one thing I've learned here is that you do not always have to try to improve a questionable bit; sometimes the best thing to do is remove it. If we must pigeon-hole Hubbard right off the bat in the article then I prefer "pulp-fiction" writer as it is more accessible than "speculative fiction" and I do not like the frequent tendency here in Wikipedia to use less accessible, if perhaps incrementally more precise, terminology in lead paragraphs. --JustaHulk (talk) 18:05, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All understandable concerns, but I think you're fighting a hurricane here. He's noted overwhelmingly in the press as a science fiction author prior to Scientology, so every drive-by editor in the world's going to insert that bit. Preemptively having something more accurate there already is the best solution I can think of. --GoodDamon 04:42, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I also will go with the consensus. Just to put in a tidbit of information, in the interview with the BBC that L.R.H. did in the 60's (I believe the time frame is right) when asked about his fortune he stated "I was a highly successful science Fiction writer prior to Dianetics" so if the consensus leans toward Science fiction, it is probably appropriate considering it was his own identification. Coffeepusher (talk) 06:15, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Controversy and criticism

I'm a little perplexed by the first reference after the comment (next to last paragraph in the section): "While a number of governments now view the Church as a religious organization entitled to protections and tax relief, others view it as a pseudoreligion or a cult.[152][153]". The first reference is to the following article: http://www.humanrights-germany.org/issues/eng/relapa96/bonafide.htm - My concern is that the article referenced is published by the Church of Scientology and seems to overstate their success in obtaining legal status. If you look at the Wiki article on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_as_a_state-recognized_religion the story definitely isn't as cut and dry as indicated in the reference. Not sure what to recommend here, just didn't think the reference was reliable or neutral... IrishTraveller (talk) 21:53, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's not. I'm not sure how it got there, but it ought to be removed or replaced. --GoodDamon 23:02, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Sect" in the WP:LEAD

I reverted last edit by Attica42 (talk · contribs), per the last edit summary comment by John Carter (talk · contribs). I agree that "Sect" could deserve mention in the WP:LEAD, but this should be discussed on the talk page. Per WP:LEAD, the intro should be an adequate summary of the article. Cirt (talk) 02:46, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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