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ajp and apc disabled

ajp and apc disabled

Edited by another user.
Last edit: 11:04, 5 April 2022

[ajp] South Levantine Arabic, and [apc] North Levantine Arabic, are shown as "disabled (meaning not yet enabled or no longer supported by translatewiki.net) or no longer exported".

Some other Arabic varieties do not suffer from this problem:

Some have the same problem, for instance:


Would it be able to activate all Arabic varieties? The whole list (also displayed in Category:Arabic) can be found here: https://iso639-3.sil.org/code/ajp

A455bcd9 (talk)09:41, 30 March 2022

The major problem of Arabic, is that standard Arabic actually has no native speakers, they all speak varieties. However these varieties are rarely written as is, and the official written language is "standard Arabic", but official verbal communication is supposed to be in standard Arabic (while it is not). In fact spoken Arabic as such is just a "macrolanguage" with good mutual understanding between all varieties. Only a few varieties have a written de facto "standard" (attested in litterature and common public communication) that frequently deviates from the standard (which is used only for some religious purpose, or in very formal documents, using some administrative "jargon", written in a form that parties or signatories agreed on to use for their international affairs, while at home or in medias they communicate with the local varieties or some mix of them, different as well from the vernacular varieties used by people in diferent subareas). So these vaeireties can also been seen as "sociolects": people change their level of language using one varity or the other depending with whom they speak or write. And when writing, there's still lot of variations, they don't necessarily use the formal "standard" variety (which is defined specifically in each region for local use such as education, but only where there's a reliable national or local academic/terminologogic standard body, or an influent local organization or media, or when it is used in international organizations, like documents published by the United Nations or the Red Crescent using a "negociated" common terminology acceptable and clear enough for all parties; thus, this is not really an unified "standard", unless the macro-language is reduced to a "most common" subset, whose coverage may expand over time by improvement of education and development of medias; but this is still not true for the "macrolanguage" as a whole and "standard Arabic" is left to be defined and will be evolutive). In practice, translations made for the "macrolanguage" [ar/ara] are effectively targetting this "standard" Arabic (so that we don't need the [arb] variant)

As well there's some form of creolisation with other native languages with which they are (or were) in contact, such as English, French, other Indo-European languages (including Iranian language), Nilo-Saharian languages, Nigero-Congolese languages, Malayo-Polynesian languages and Sino-Tibetan languages.

Classifying all these varieties is difficult. That's why most written text tend to use a model formal form based on "Standard Arabic" which is a modernized variant of old Coranic Arabic texts (but annotated with variable phonologies depending also on interpretations).

The ISO 639 attempted to subclassify them, but the classification is evolutive, unstable and may no longer be pertinent. We have the same case with the varieties of "Chinese" (complicated there by the fact that the written form does not fully transcribe the actual phonology, it is a vehicular medium allowing people that do not understand each other by speech to have a common written form).

But here in TWN we just have to work on written text, not really the oral language that may have many more differences than what is written. ISO 639 focuses on the oral language much more than what we need for translating written messages... And Arabic does not require using a full notation of the phonology (unless this has consequences creating semantic ambiguities, but generally these can be solved by choosing more appropriate terms, and there's rarely the need then to transcribe distinct translations for many variants: that's the role of a "macrolanguage", even if that written common form may look somewhat too formal, less natural than what people use more commonly).

Those varieties however are enabled if there's a clear community support for developping them distinctively, and that's the case for Egyptian, Tunisian, Algerian, Moroccan. It may be possibly for Sudanese, it is not clear for Levantine, Mesopotamian/Arabian/Gulf variants, where Standard Arabic is largely favored on the public scene, for strong political and religious reasons: other variants in this region are perceived negatively as "dialects", sometimes pejoratively for refering to "uneducated" people (and these people may fear developing or maintaining these variants, they often don't have any local official support for their efforts, or their efforts may be exposed to attacks or erasure, as being "incorrect" or "unnecessary", or worse perceived as "offensive", "deviant", "heretic", and so on, and when using Wikimedia policies they could as well be erased for "lack of notoriety" or "lack of references").

Verdy p (talk)10:16, 30 March 2022
 

ajp is enabled. What the portal said was a mistake. I fixed it.

apc was never enabled here. I don't know why does the portal even exist. As far as I know, there was never a serious request to enable it.

As for enabling all varieties, this is not the right way to request it. Every language is a separate entity, and we don't do wholesale enabling of languages, otherwise we'd just add all of ISO 639. If there are serious translators who know a particular language and want to translate into it, they can request it. One by one. Please don't ask to enable languages for other people — they should do it themselves.

Amir E. Aharoni (talk)10:26, 30 March 2022

Thanks again Amir!

As you can see I haven't done much progress on ajp translation as I was mainly working on the Levantine Arabic article on Wikipedia. I improved it to GA status and recently nominated it to FAC: feedback welcome! ( https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Levantine_Arabic/archive1&redirect=no )

The next step will be to work on the ajp Wikipedia. I found 5-10 potential contributors :)

@Verdy: yes the issue is complex. Still, Arabic varieties are more and more often written, especially online, but also in some newspapers (cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levantine_Arabic ). There's also a project to create a Wikipedia edition in Levantine ( https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/ajp/Main_Page ) and there are already Wikipedias in Maltese, Egyptian, and Moroccan. What's more, there are 3k entries in South Levantine in the Wiktionary ( https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:South_Levantine_Arabic_lemmas ).

A455bcd9 (talk)10:38, 30 March 2022
 
Edited by author.
Last edit: 10:51, 30 March 2022

It was not a mistake, that language was disabled at the time the Portal:Ajp was created. It has enabled after, but the portal was not changed to reflect it (and the change made in TWN to enable was not announced in a trackable place). I've just removed the "disabled" status from its categories (not just the portal page). Maltese is really special: even if it is considered by linguists to be part of Arabic, it is written since long with the Latin script, and has borrowed many lexical forms from Indo-European languages and significantly modified the grammar, so much that speakers and writers of Maltese no longer understand Arabic easily and most other Arabic speakers and writers won't understand Maltese easily. That is, Maltese is no longer part of the Arabic "macrolanguage" since long and it has well developed its own standard.

Verdy p (talk)10:41, 30 March 2022

Merci Verdy !

A455bcd9 (talk)10:44, 30 March 2022
Edited by author.
Last edit: 11:09, 30 March 2022

Can you review the currently displayed native name (العربية الشامي الجنوبية)?

There are several variants shown, may be a shorter name is possible for common use, as long as it allows showing clearly the distinction with other variants. I'm not sure that the name currently displayed in the users babel boxes (just: شامي) is sufficiently distinctive (for me it just means "Levantine" or "Shami" and does not allow a clear distinction with North Levantine).

As well, the number of speakers of North Levantine (also using شامي Shami for commonly refering to their language in a vaster area and with a larger diaspora around the world), largely outweight the number of those speaking Southern Levantine in Israel, Palestine and Jordan.

Verdy p (talk)10:55, 30 March 2022

شامي would be better.

A455bcd9 (talk)10:56, 30 March 2022

I saw your edit later: yes, Shami does not allow a clear distinction with North Levantine. The North vs South Levantine was created in the ISO standard. I looked at scholarly literature and no scholar follows that convention. I submitted a request to ISO to merge the two language codes (or at least to ask them to provide a justification for this division).

There's no native name for "South Levantine" as it's a creation of the ISO standard not known by speakers. They would call their language amiya ("colloquial") or simply "Arabic" or by the name of their country (Palestinian, Urduni, Lebnene, etc.).

We have a similar situation for ary which is called "darija" which means "colloquial" and is the way Arabic speakers call their vernacular in the Maghreb. It doesn't allow a clear distinction between Moroccan, Algerian, Tunisian, etc. It is the equivalent of "amiya" in the Levant and in Egypt.

A455bcd9 (talk)11:06, 30 March 2022

Note that Wikipedia has another view, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levantine_Arabic.

The Southern variety has its own specificities, and there are data comparing count of speakers of both variants. I'm not convinced this is a pure invention of ISO, as it is also given by many other linguists. True, they form a sort of continuum, but with two major standards driving them, with different traditions, even if they have good mutual understanding.

Verdy p (talk)11:13, 30 March 2022

I'm the author of the Wikipedia article ( https://xtools.wmflabs.org/articleinfo/en.wikipedia.org/Levantine_Arabic ) so no, it doesn't have another view.

As explained in the article: "Versteegh classifies Levantine (which he calls "Syro-Lebanese") into three groups: Lebanese/Central Syrian (inc. Beirut, Damascus, Druze Arabic, Cypriot Maronite), North Syrian (inc. Aleppo), and Palestinian/Jordanian.[31] However, according to him, distinctions between these groups are unclear, and isoglosses cannot determine the exact boundary with certainty.[32] The ISO 639-3 standard divide Levantine into North and South Levantine.[33][34] Ethnologue notes a "high mutual intelligibility" between these two varieties."

"The similarity among Levantine dialects is not determined by geographical location or political boundaries. The urban dialects of the main cities (such as Damascus, Beirut, and Jerusalem) have much more in common with each other than they do with the rural dialects of their respective countries. The sociolects of two different social or religious groups within the same country may also show more dissimilarity with each other than when compared with their counterparts in another country.[1]"

South and North Levantine are not "two major standards" driving Levantine Arabic.

A455bcd9 (talk)11:18, 30 March 2022

Well just to be clear, I added Shami to the name, while still keeping the long form as a secondary displayed name.

Still we have no Arabic name shown for North Levantine (in Portal:Apc and its parent category, or for the Arabic macrolanguage): we only see a name in English.

So you argue that there are no two standards, defined geographically, but there should be other moresignificant distinction between Urban and Rural Levantine variants... Did you submit this to ISO? And is it really relevant today, given the massive migrations that occured nearly one century (notably since WW2 and the end of French and English mandates in the region, the creation of Israel, and the long conflicts since 1967 with Israel and now all over Syria, that forced many people to move from rural to urban areas, but as well to the large demographic evolution). So all these variants tend to mix up today. But people may want to preserve their original varieties, at least to preserve their culture or revive it.

Verdy p (talk)11:28, 30 March 2022

I argue nothing, I just repeat what scholars say.

Yes, I mentioned to ISO that urban vs rural could make more sense. We (two linguists, including one Palestinian native speaker, and I) submitted the request to ISO in December but it's not online yet.

It'll be up to them to make a decision.

A455bcd9 (talk)11:47, 30 March 2022

Is it possible that the distinction betwzen ajp and apc was based on the former administrative division made after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, with the instauration of the former French mandate (creating a "Northern Levantine Arabic" variant) and British mandate (creating a "Southern Levantine Arabic" variant) on the region? Note that this division has survived after their end and the access to full independance of Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Irak and the controversed creation of Israel inside Palestine, then the 1967 war between Israel and Arab countries and their territorial claims, Palestine still being denied to create their own state with stable borders).

The division is also not really based on religion: all major religions are present there since millenia (including Christian Arabs notably in Palestine, Greek Orthodoxes, Armenians, Jewishes, and other smaller independant religions historically with Persan origin before the conversion of Persia to Shiit Islam since the very early division of Islam in two major branches). Religion has always been a factor of conflict, but not always following the administrative boundaries (and not always borrowing the language of the ruler, notably in the Ottoman Empire, where Turkic languages did not made significant advance in that region, much more in Central Asia up to Mongolia and today's Southern Russia and Northwestern China.) But religions is still a major factor of division between peoples and how they speak, even when they are in minorities. The effective local politics made by rulers has always had a much more important influence, rather then religion, more supported by peoples with influence on their daily life and communication (even if it was clandestine).

For the case of Arabic, it really got political influence mixed with religion only after the end of the British mandate, but religon was already splitting that community so it played a lower role (that's why "standard" Arabic is not used by speakers as a primary language anywhere: it's also a modern creation made by adapting old Coranic Arabic to the modern administation of some countries, and notably Saudi Arabia). All attempts to intricate religion (and its own internal divisions) into politics have complicated things, created more divisions of peoples, and generated deadly wars, brutal regimes, large migrations of populations and severely damaged human languages and cultures.

Verdy p (talk)12:39, 30 March 2022

As you say, it's possible, but no sources I found (and I read a LOT of them to write the Wikipedia article) advanced that claim. That's why I hope the ISO standard will either accept our proposal or refuse but provide us with an answer as to what defines South and North Levantine Arabic. Because as of today, we don't know the distinctive features of each variety and we don't know the border between the two either.

Regarding religion, there are some differences in the pronunciation, vocabulary, and even grammar of Levantine Arabic depending on the religion of the speaker. These differences tend to disappear with globalization and internal migrations. To cite Wikipedia: "Differences between Muslim and Christian dialects are minimal, mainly involving some religious vocabulary.[54] A minority of features are perceived as typically associated with one group. For example, in Beirut, the exponent tēʕ is only used by Muslims and never by Christians (who use tabaʕ).[55] Contrary to others, Druze and Alawite dialects retained the phoneme /q/.[13] MSA influences Sunni dialects more. Jewish dialects diverge more from Muslim dialects and often show influences from other towns due to trade networks and contacts with other Jewish communities.[56] For instance, the Jewish dialect of Hatay is very similar to the Aleppo dialect, in particular to the dialect of the Jews of Aleppo, and shows traits otherwise not found in any dialect of Hatay.[56][43] Koineization in cities such as Damascus leads to a homogenization of the language among religious groups.[57]"

A455bcd9 (talk)13:05, 30 March 2022

Thanks anyway, if we rely on existing standards, there's a distinction, but no clear way to define how to use them.

Does your request to ISO intend to merge (deprecate) [apc] into [ajp] (and change its name accordingly to just "Levantine Arabic", and possibly later add new variants, leaving [aj] only for the major urban koine, while ading some other new variants for rural regional variants, for historical reason or for relious purposes like you describe?

Verdy p (talk)18:05, 30 March 2022

This is up to the ISO team to decide.

A455bcd9 (talk)10:54, 31 March 2022
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

I fear that you are only speaking about North Levantine, not at all about South Levantine.

According to Glottolog, there are 3 distinct branches in the Levantine Arabic subfamily, but this does not follow at all the maps shown in the Wikipedia articles:

  • Cypriot Levantine Arabic [acy] (written with the Latin script)
  • South Levantine Arabic [ajp] (see also wikipedia:en:South Levantine Arabic, whose description for its coverage is probably wrong, as well as its map):
    • Fellahi (initially in Egypt, originately around the Nile Delta and the Sinai peninsula, as well as Gaza Bank, now remaining in very urbanized and overpopulated areas, mixing several Islamic and Christian religions)
    • Madani (mostly in Western Jordan, and Palestine or today's Cisjordania/Western Bank and Southwestern Syrian territories occupied by Israel, many have migrated to the North in Lebanon, or in Jordan and Syria, or to Egypt, and they are now highly mixed also with Fellahi speakers)
  • North Levantine Arabic (or Shami) [apc]:
    • Aleppo
    • Beqaa Arabic
    • Iqlim-Al-Kharrub Sunni Arabic
    • 'Jdaideh Arabic
    • North-Central Lebanese Arabic
    • North Lebanese Arabic
    • Saida Sunni Arabic
    • South-Central Lebanese Arabic
    • South Lebanese Arabic
    • Standard Lebanese Arabic
    • Sunni Beiruti Arabic

So all the urban/rural variants you spoke are all part of North Levantine Arabic (which is actually what is refered by Shami), and that does not apply to Cypriot Levantine Arabic, and to the real South Levantine Arabic (limited to Fellahi and Madani, and not covering any one of the variants you described).

As you were the author of the Wikipedia article (even if you have very low knowledge of Levantine Arabic, and you don't live in that region, and French is your native language), this "source" has created a confusion, and I fear that ISO will reject your request, because you made a false assumption about what was the North vs. South division (and you forgot the case of Cypriot Levantine).

Then you have assumed that "Levantine" covered everything as a single language, and ISO, the Linguists List, Glottolog, WALS, and wellknown sources disagree with you: you have a too limited view of this Arabic subfamily.

The maps shown are just administratively based on the former British and French mandates by the SDN in the region (after WW1 and the collapse of the former Ottoman Empire, but before the independances after WW2 and the creation of the United Nations): those maps may only be valid for about 30 years under the very indirect British and French international administrations (but in cooperation with local native authorities, for the time needed to organize themselves until they reached their full independance), but have not had any influence on the linguistic divisions as there was no major evolution except for the creation of Israel just a few years before the end of British mandate: these are not linguistic maps but historical adminitrative maps, and their description is wrong. The British mandate covered regions using languages in the 2 major branches of Levantine, except Cypriot Levantine (now covered by two states since the end of the 1970's, with the remaining dispute between Greece and Turkey for their influence on Cyprus, and the remaining British Sovereign bases just between them: these two governing states also do not define where Cypriot Levantine Arabic is used, because the dominant languages there are Cypriot Greek and Cypriot Turkish, with British English remaining secondary and official only for the military affairs in the small Sovereign Bases but replaced by Greek and Turkish for all civil affairs, and Cypriot Levantine Arabic being used only in some places and small communities in Cyprus mostly for religious and cultural purposes and for its diaspora mostly in Lebanon and Israel).

And then all initial translations that have been enabled and started in [ajp] are wrong: they should have all be made into [apc]!

So it would be good to have accurate opinions from actual native speakers, notably from those living in Palestine (Gaza Strip, Cisjordinia/West Bank, and occupied territories including East Jerusalem), Northeastern Egypt/Sinai or Western Jordan, or with strong relations with peoples living in this area, rather than the opinono of someone with just some generic knowledge of "standard" Arabic (as perceived from France, where most native Arabic locutors are coming from Maghreb, and very few from the Levant).

Verdy p (talk)21:30, 30 March 2022

Regarding Cypriot Arabic, it used to be considered as a Levantine dialect and it is now considered as a separate language by most scholars. Here's what Ethnologue says: "A hybrid language with roots in the Arabic of both Anatolia and Levant." ( https://www.ethnologue.com/language/acy ).

I don't understand why you wrote: "So all the urban/rural variants you spoke are all part of North Levantine Arabic (which is actually what is refered by Shami), and that does not apply to Cypriot Levantine Arabic, and to the real South Levantine Arabic (limited to Fellahi and Madani, and not covering any one of the variants you described)."

Do you understand that "Fellahi" means "rural" in Arabic ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fellah ) and "Madani" means urban?

Regarding the opinion of native speakers, as I told you, the cosponsor of our proposal is a Palestinian, Ph.D. in Arabic linguistics at Oxford University.

Anyway, the ISO committee will make a decision based on our proposal. And no matter their final decision it will be interesting to have more details about their reasoning regarding the definition and borders of the different Levantine (sub)varieties. I suggest we wait for their decision.

A455bcd9 (talk)11:00, 31 March 2022

OK... The more I see it, South Levantine is more or less equivalent of "Palestinian". The historic distinction between Fellahi/rural and Madani/urban is no longer relevant and most Palestinians are now concentrated in heavilyu urbanized areas, and those that spoke the rural variants are mixed together with those that were living in urban areas as they were forced to move outside of occupied territories (and distinction of religion is not relevant: Palestinians are both Christians and Muslems, in several obediances), except those that live in Jordan and fled the Western Bank/Cisjordania: they are now highly constrated as well in very urbanized areas in Western Jordan, or have migrated elsewhere in the world, or possibly to the North in Lebanon where they live now with other speakers of North Levantine.

The historic distinction was probably more pronounced than it is today, due to the massive migrations of population and they have certainy shifted a lot their language (much more in the South Levantine area (i.e. Palestine and Western Jordan) than others in Lebanon, and Syria (though with the more recent war in Syria, this has certianly complicated things). Most of this population is very young and has never lived in the origin place of their parents, and the level of education and poverty has certainly not allowed preserving their original cultures. But there are certainly interesting remains of that culture that has been preserved, and could be renewed using new ways of communication offered by the Internet, mobile phones, social networks and online communities (more independantly of their mutual distances and of adminsitrative or military barriers, wherever they have to live now).

But mixing both [ajp] and [apc] in a single language would be wrong and damaging, even if they are part of the same macrolanguage (Arabic) or sudivision of that macrolanguage (Levantine). Note that there are also other related Arabic variants in that region (notably Mesopotamian Arabic, spoken in Irak, where the conflicts also forced many to take refuge with their young family to the west into Jordan or Lebanon, or to the North into Turkey, or to the East into Iran; Turkey itself caused also many kurds to take refuge to the south into Syria and Lebanon or to the East into Iran, Armenia, Azerbaidjan, and Georgia). All these conflicts causing massive migrations certainly influenced their current language a lot, all these people have to adapt and younder generations born there now use a mixed language or no longer know the differences between their historical variants.

It is strange that there's no more support in lingusitic departments of universities of Arabic-speaking countries which don't have so much troubles and that have enoough money, not justs Saudi Arabia, Qatar or Emirates, Egypt or Morocco): may be they just promote a single unified standard form or their own national variant. But this may not be true for other countries in Europe and US.

Verdy p (talk)16:00, 31 March 2022

Actually, the rural dialect is kept by rural speakers when they move to cities. And this can create new dialects that are a merge of rural and urban.

See for instance: Al-Wer, Enam (2020). "New-dialect formation: The Amman dialect". In Lucas, Christopher; Manfredi, Stefano (eds.). Arabic and contact-induced change. Language Science Press. pp. 551–552, 555. doi:10.5281/zenodo.3744549. ISBN 978-3-96110-251-8. OCLC 1164638334. Archived from the original on 16 March 2022. Retrieved 6 March 2022.

Also, the "Palestinian dialect" isn't uniform. For instance, the dialect of Gaza shares many features with Egyptian and Bedawi Arabic. For this see: Cotter, William M. (2020). "The Arabic dialect of Gaza City". Journal of the International Phonetic Association. Cambridge University Press. 52: 3, 7. doi:10.1017/S0025100320000134. S2CID 234436324.

Please note also that even among a given city, there are dialectal differences. For instance, grammar can change depending on the neighborhoods of Beirut (use of the perfect or the imperfect for certain tenses). Similarly in Amman, the pronunciation of the /q/ phoneme from Classical Arabic depends on the gender (women pronounce it as a glottal stop). On this point, see: Al-Masri, Mohammad (2015). Colloquial Arabic (Levantine): The Complete Course for Beginners. Colloquial Series. Routledge. ISBN 978-0-415-72685-6. OCLC 919431090.

A455bcd9 (talk)17:17, 31 March 2022