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Kaia
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Reducing the problem

Since up/down is set by the direction of gravity, we don't really have to worry about it; if an Ordian needs to look upwards 20deg, that's the same as on Earth. So the challenge is 3D, not 4D, which is good news for us 3D creatures. (If you've played 4d Golf you're familiar with how playing golf along flat ground in 4D is the same as putting in 3d with no gravity.)

The 4D horizon is a 3D sphere, the same way the 3D horizon is a 2D circle. Ordians have a "forwards" based on where they're looking, sobut they're radially symmetric along the other axis. So you might think of the problem as equivalent to situations like:

  • Two astronauts can each see the direction the other is looking but not which way the other is oriented head/toe-wise (e.g. they're too far to see each other in detail, but they have laser pointers they can use to gesture with). How can they both orient themselves with the same "up"?
  • Somebody gave me a globe with no latitude/longitude lines, but it does have countries labelled. Over the phone, how can tell me what direction is north, or tell me how to rotate the globe to find any particular country?
  • I'm looking for Jupiter using a star chart, but I don't know which direction is north or what time it is.

Solutions

Alice and Bob are Ordians. She can see where Bob is looking, and where Bob is in relation to her, but not what Bob's internal sense of ana/kata/left/right is. She also knows Bob can look at her and at the direction she's looking.

"With me at 12-o'clock,"

Bob can keep facing forwards, but spin clockwise/anticlockwise in such a way that Alice is "12-o'clock" of him, and then use her to define the rest of the directions.

If Alice isn't visible, she can choose whatever other object to specify 12-o'clock, and if it isn't clear which way Bob is facing, she can pick two objects. E.g. if Alice is giving Bob directions, she might say "Alright, looking at the bank, with 12'oclock as the grocery store, now turn 90deg towards 5'oclock."

This is how we tend to learn the constellations, which is probably the closest we come to dealing with this problem regularly. To find Polaris, I find the Big Dipper and then I look in the direction pointed by the last two stars of the dipper.

"That way"

If you're trying to get somebody to look somewhere, or move in a certain direction, it's likely sufficient to point. If you need to point and indicate a 12-o'clock, you can point and then move your hand up and down to indicate an orientation.

Customary directions

We end up defining all kinds of 'customary' directions in day-to-day life. "3 blocks downtown of...", "windward", "downhill", and "towards the chemistry building" are all relative directions that, in a particular context, specify an absolute coordinate system. If you exist on more than a featureless void, there's likely tons of ways to establish a shared direction.

Reducing the problem

Since up/down is set by the direction of gravity, we don't really have to worry about it; if an Ordian needs to look upwards 20deg, that's the same as on Earth. So the challenge is 3D, not 4D, which is good news for us 3D creatures. (If you've played 4d Golf you're familiar with how playing golf along flat ground in 4D is the same as putting in 3d with no gravity.)

The 4D horizon is a 3D sphere, the same way the 3D horizon is a 2D circle. Ordians have a "forwards" based on where they're looking, so you might think of the problem as equivalent to situations like:

  • Two astronauts can each see the direction the other is looking but not which way the other is oriented head/toe-wise (e.g. they're too far to see each other in detail, but they have laser pointers they can use to gesture with). How can they both orient themselves with the same "up"?
  • Somebody gave me a globe with no latitude/longitude lines, but it does have countries labelled. Over the phone, how can tell me what direction is north, or tell me how to rotate the globe to find any particular country?
  • I'm looking for Jupiter using a star chart, but I don't know which direction is north or what time it is.

Solutions

Alice and Bob are Ordians. She can see where Bob is looking, and where Bob is in relation to her, but not what Bob's internal sense of ana/kata/left/right is. She also knows Bob can look at her and at the direction she's looking.

"With me at 12-o'clock,"

Bob can keep facing forwards, but spin clockwise/anticlockwise in such a way that Alice is "12-o'clock" of him, and then use her to define the rest of the directions.

If Alice isn't visible, she can choose whatever other object to specify 12-o'clock, and if it isn't clear which way Bob is facing, she can pick two objects. E.g. if Alice is giving Bob directions, she might say "Alright, looking at the bank, with 12'oclock as the grocery store, now turn 90deg towards 5'oclock."

This is how we tend to learn the constellations, which is probably the closest we come to dealing with this problem regularly. To find Polaris, I find the Big Dipper and then I look in the direction pointed by the last two stars of the dipper.

"That way"

If you're trying to get somebody to look somewhere, or move in a certain direction, it's likely sufficient to point. If you need to point and indicate a 12-o'clock, you can point and then move your hand up and down to indicate an orientation.

Customary directions

We end up defining all kinds of 'customary' directions in day-to-day life. "3 blocks downtown of...", "windward", "downhill", and "towards the chemistry building" are all relative directions that, in a particular context, specify an absolute coordinate system. If you exist on more than a featureless void, there's likely tons of ways to establish a shared direction.

Reducing the problem

Since up/down is set by the direction of gravity, we don't really have to worry about it; if an Ordian needs to look upwards 20deg, that's the same as on Earth. So the challenge is 3D, not 4D, which is good news for us 3D creatures. (If you've played 4d Golf you're familiar with how playing golf along flat ground in 4D is the same as putting in 3d with no gravity.)

The 4D horizon is a 3D sphere, the same way the 3D horizon is a 2D circle. Ordians have a "forwards" based on where they're looking, but they're radially symmetric along the other axis. So you might think of the problem as equivalent to situations like:

  • Two astronauts can each see the direction the other is looking but not which way the other is oriented head/toe-wise (e.g. they're too far to see each other in detail, but they have laser pointers they can use to gesture with). How can they both orient themselves with the same "up"?
  • Somebody gave me a globe with no latitude/longitude lines, but it does have countries labelled. Over the phone, how can tell me what direction is north, or tell me how to rotate the globe to find any particular country?
  • I'm looking for Jupiter using a star chart, but I don't know which direction is north or what time it is.

Solutions

Alice and Bob are Ordians. She can see where Bob is looking, and where Bob is in relation to her, but not what Bob's internal sense of ana/kata/left/right is. She also knows Bob can look at her and at the direction she's looking.

"With me at 12-o'clock,"

Bob can keep facing forwards, but spin clockwise/anticlockwise in such a way that Alice is "12-o'clock" of him, and then use her to define the rest of the directions.

If Alice isn't visible, she can choose whatever other object to specify 12-o'clock, and if it isn't clear which way Bob is facing, she can pick two objects. E.g. if Alice is giving Bob directions, she might say "Alright, looking at the bank, with 12'oclock as the grocery store, now turn 90deg towards 5'oclock."

This is how we tend to learn the constellations, which is probably the closest we come to dealing with this problem regularly. To find Polaris, I find the Big Dipper and then I look in the direction pointed by the last two stars of the dipper.

"That way"

If you're trying to get somebody to look somewhere, or move in a certain direction, it's likely sufficient to point. If you need to point and indicate a 12-o'clock, you can point and then move your hand up and down to indicate an orientation.

Customary directions

We end up defining all kinds of 'customary' directions in day-to-day life. "3 blocks downtown of...", "windward", "downhill", and "towards the chemistry building" are all relative directions that, in a particular context, specify an absolute coordinate system. If you exist on more than a featureless void, there's likely tons of ways to establish a shared direction.

Source Link
Kaia
Kaia
  • 428
  • 2
  • 9

Reducing the problem

Since up/down is set by the direction of gravity, we don't really have to worry about it; if an Ordian needs to look upwards 20deg, that's the same as on Earth. So the challenge is 3D, not 4D, which is good news for us 3D creatures. (If you've played 4d Golf you're familiar with how playing golf along flat ground in 4D is the same as putting in 3d with no gravity.)

The 4D horizon is a 3D sphere, the same way the 3D horizon is a 2D circle. Ordians have a "forwards" based on where they're looking, so you might think of the problem as equivalent to situations like:

  • Two astronauts can each see the direction the other is looking but not which way the other is oriented head/toe-wise (e.g. they're too far to see each other in detail, but they have laser pointers they can use to gesture with). How can they both orient themselves with the same "up"?
  • Somebody gave me a globe with no latitude/longitude lines, but it does have countries labelled. Over the phone, how can tell me what direction is north, or tell me how to rotate the globe to find any particular country?
  • I'm looking for Jupiter using a star chart, but I don't know which direction is north or what time it is.

Solutions

Alice and Bob are Ordians. She can see where Bob is looking, and where Bob is in relation to her, but not what Bob's internal sense of ana/kata/left/right is. She also knows Bob can look at her and at the direction she's looking.

"With me at 12-o'clock,"

Bob can keep facing forwards, but spin clockwise/anticlockwise in such a way that Alice is "12-o'clock" of him, and then use her to define the rest of the directions.

If Alice isn't visible, she can choose whatever other object to specify 12-o'clock, and if it isn't clear which way Bob is facing, she can pick two objects. E.g. if Alice is giving Bob directions, she might say "Alright, looking at the bank, with 12'oclock as the grocery store, now turn 90deg towards 5'oclock."

This is how we tend to learn the constellations, which is probably the closest we come to dealing with this problem regularly. To find Polaris, I find the Big Dipper and then I look in the direction pointed by the last two stars of the dipper.

"That way"

If you're trying to get somebody to look somewhere, or move in a certain direction, it's likely sufficient to point. If you need to point and indicate a 12-o'clock, you can point and then move your hand up and down to indicate an orientation.

Customary directions

We end up defining all kinds of 'customary' directions in day-to-day life. "3 blocks downtown of...", "windward", "downhill", and "towards the chemistry building" are all relative directions that, in a particular context, specify an absolute coordinate system. If you exist on more than a featureless void, there's likely tons of ways to establish a shared direction.