Talk:86 (MBTA bus)

	86 (MBTA bus) has been listed as one of the Engineering and technology good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones Date Process Result June 11, 2005 Articles for deletion Redirected June 12, 2021 Good article nominee Listed
	A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on June 29, 2021. The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that transit service on part of MBTA bus route 86 dates back to 1858?
Current status: Good article

This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Buses Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Buses, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of buses on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.BusesWikipedia:WikiProject BusesTemplate:WikiProject Busesbus transport articles Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Greater Boston Public Transit Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of the Greater Boston Public Transit WikiProject, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of public transportation in the Greater Boston metropolitan area. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.Greater Boston Public TransitWikipedia:WikiProject Greater Boston Public TransitTemplate:WikiProject Greater Boston Public TransitGreater Boston Public Transit articles Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

I completely missed this VFD. I have been bold and added information that makes it fit better into the history of the MBTA, and addresses many of the VFD concerns (it's been mostly the same since the 1920s). I may in the future merge it somewhere else, but there is more that is notable than one line on the list. --SPUI (talk) 23:31, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have changed the {{mb}} template to a new {{MBTABus}} template (which is identical to the old {{mb}} template) so that {{mb}} can be used for {{Mfd bottom}}, in the same way that {{Ab}} can be used for {{Afd bottom}} —Mets501 (talk) 22:20, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

...does this bus route gets its own article when practically none of the other MBTA bus routes do? What makes this route different from the hundreds of others, including equally important/critical routes such as 39 and 57? 192.196.218.210 (talk) 01:26, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The 39 and 57 are covered under Green Line A branch and Green Line E branch. All of the key routes are worth having their own articles (save for the 39, 57, 71, and 73, which are all covered under other articles), plus some routes with significant streetcar history like the 7, 9, 34, 43, 70, 92/93, and 100. It's just a matter of someone taking the time to do the research and write the articles. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 22:04, 11 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This review is transcluded from Talk:86 (MBTA bus)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Caleb M1 (talk · contribs) 20:03, 15 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

Fails parts of criteria 1,2 and 3.

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

   Barely fails. Can be fixed with small edits.

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):

   Overall, this article fails on sources. The range of sources included is narrow and the entire lead is unreferenced.

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

   On coverage, this is a close fail.

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

   NPOV is seldom an issue with regards to bus routes.

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. This article needs to have a 'see also', it needs to have its lead cited, and it needs to stay on topic when describing history:

   FailSecond Opinion:

@Caleb M1: I understand this is your first GA review, but it is neither accurate nor complete. GA reviews are to check compliance with the GA criteria; they should not reflect personal preferences. You have not provided any justification for a quick fail, which means you need to do a full review and allow me to respond to them. If you do not wish to do a full review, please ask for a new reviewer at WT:GAN.

With regards to some of your specific points: Neither the GA criteria nor MOS:CITELEAD require citations in the lead, except for specific items like direct quotations and controversial statements; the entire lede of this article consists of information already cited in the body of the article. For citations in the article as a whole, the GA criteria specify that all inline citations are from reliable sources, including those for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons. There is no requirement for "range of sources".

The western portion of route 86 is the former route 63; the history of route 86 necessarily includes the history of route 63, and it is not tangential. There is no requirement for articles to have a See also section. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 23:48, 15 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I just now asked for a second opinion to guide me through my first GA review. You are probably right about what not to do, I just need help on what to do. Thank you for your feedback. 00:53, 16 May 2021 (UTC) Caleb M1 (talk) 00:53, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Pi.1415626535 Before second opinion shows up, I must plead most of your allegations that I have misreviewed this article to be true. I realize that I have misread the overall GA instructions and MOS:BOLDLEDE, and you have given a convincing explanation on why the history of Route 63 was not tangential.

With regards to sources, I do recant my statement about the range of sources. What I cannot recant, is the statement that the lead lacks citation. MOS:CITELEAD says "there is not, however, an exception to citation requirements specific to leads". Had the lead contained nothing but general, common knowledge of the route, I would have retracted that requirement. Unfortunately, this article's lead include statistics, which are part of Good Article Criteria 2b.

Article Criteria 1 requires adherence to MOS: Layout, which lists the "see also" section as a "standard appendices and footer". There is no indication that it is optional, for MOS: Layout compliance.

Overall, I now admit that quick-failing it was a mistake, and so would failing it only on what I have found sofar. The instructions recommend that noobs get a second opinion. That said, the only 4 other second opinion requests are more than a week old, so I am wondering if there is any other place I could get outside input. I'm thinking either WP:THIRD if I can call this a content dispute, or WP:Teahouse if I can still call myself a "new editor". I'll go ahead and wait a week and complete this as much as I can in the meantime, and after a week I'll get creative as to where to get outside help.

I dutifully apologize for the overall way I reviewed this article. Caleb M1 (talk) 13:09, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Without prejudice regarding other GA aspects, there should be no material in the lead which is not mentioned elsewhere in the content, where it should be properly referenced. This is why the lead does not usually need refs. There is no harm in having refs in the lead, it is generally a matter of personal style. If the same material is adequately referenced elsewhere in the content, it is not up to the reviewer to decide that it must also be referenced in the lead.

A "see also" section is optional. If it serves no useful purpose it can be left out. Also not the reviewer's prerogative to decide, though reasonable arguments for and against inclusion may be made.

The reviewer should provide actionable criticism. For example, On coverage, this is a close fail. is not actionable. Why is it a close fail? What is missing? How can it be fixed? Cheers, · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 10:53, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

My coverage issue was staying on topic with regards to history, which Pi adressed. Given that all of my initial reasons for failing have been debunked, is there anything I need to do to make this GA review more complete, or can I go ahead and give it a pass? Caleb M1 (talk) 23:13, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Starts GA 2^nd Opinion; the review will follow the same sections of the Article. Hope to start soon, Thank you --Whiteguru (talk) 02:00, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Caleb M1: @Pi.1415926535:

Criteria

• Lede reads fine, if a little over-referenced in the first para.
• I am not sure that Boston needs a link.
• Route, History and Service seem to be common headings for GA bus transportation articles.
• In the infobox, you are setting daily ridership (2018) using a 1974 document? The year 2018 gets one mention on page 48.

•  Done Good catch.

• We need to source the correct ridership records. Is this Reference 4?

•  Done

• MOS:REPEATLINK applies. Where a topic or town or name has been linked once, it is not linked thereafter in articles. So you will be needing to remove duplicate links.

• I've removed one duplicate link in the prose. REPEATLINK allows links from the lede to be repeated once in the prose, which is what I've done.

Resolved

• Shorten the heading Route Details to Route (to maintain conformity with other GA Bus transportation articles)

•  Done

• Sullivan Square and Sullivan Square Station appear to be the same location. May I have an explanation?

• Sullivan Square is the name of an intersection (which is no longer square) and the sub-neighborhood surrounding it. Sullivan Square station is a metro station near Sullivan Square.

Resolved

• With regard to Bus transportation, where there has been prior transport by way of horse-drawn trolley and electric street-car trolley, these have been covered, where the history is available.
• The coverage of horse-drawn and electric trolley lines might deserve a little more clarity. This could be improved from a dot point list.

• I'm not sure what can be done to improve it - I think it's easier to understand the four separate segments as a bulleted list rather than paragraphs.

Resolved

• The second last sentence in this article needs to be included in the lede. It is a significant summary of the current state of this route and its service.

•  Done

1. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

• Page created 11 June 2005
• Page has had 39 edits by 20 editors
• Majority of edits to this page occurred during 2021
• 90 day page views = 244 pages with a daily average of 3 views.
• no edit warring is observed in the page history

1. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

• File:MBTA route 86 bus at Cleveland Circle, May 2017.JPG = Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported license. Captioning is appropriate.
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/86_(MBTA_bus)#/map/0 = Wikimedia Commons map; good work, don't see this often;
• File:Market Street at Wexford Street, Brighton, October 1930.jpg = Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.0 Generic license. Captioning is appropriate.
• File:MBTA route 86 bus at Sullivan station, July 2006.jpg = the copyright holder of this work, released this work into the public domain. OK. Captioning is appropriate.

1. Overall:

• Not having a grasp of the street layout in Boston and the number of places by name "Union Square" along an axis called Cambridge Road makes comprehension difficult. Nonetheless a good attempt at delivering and naming locations in relation to this route has been done. There is an amount of duplicate links that need to be removed, and we need to sort the origin of the ridership statistics.
• I am not rendering comments yea or nay on the initial review except to pass an observation that the Lead is not normally populated with references. The lead introduces themes and matters to come in the article; the details are in the sections, normally.
• Caleb M1 Pi.1415926535 Attention to the matters raised above - when resolved - would see this article merit GA status. --Whiteguru (talk) 05:59, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Whiteguru: Thanks for taking a look! I should have time to address your comments in the next 24-48 hours. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 04:56, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Pi.1415926535:: Thanks, take your time. A bit of work, should be a good outcome for all. --Whiteguru (talk) 05:11, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Whiteguru: I think I've addressed all your actionable comments. Thanks, Pi.1415926535 (talk) 08:12, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Caleb M1 All the second opinion issues have been addressed satisfactorily and/or resolved.
• I recommend you pass the review as per the instructions given here --Whiteguru (talk) 00:01, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Sorry It took awhile to respond to second opinion. My computer broke. Caleb M1 (talk) 13:35, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Y

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Desertarun (talk) 19:19, 19 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that transit service on part of MBTA bus route 86 dates back to 1858? Source: Origin and Development of the Fixed-Route Local Bus Transportation Network..., page 200: "On November 15, 1930, BERy buses replaced trolleys between Union Square in Somerville and Sullivan Square Station via Washington and Cambridge Streets. This segment first had street railway service as part of a line of the Somerville Horse Railroad, opened in 1858. "

• Reviewed: James Bridge Copper Works

Improved to Good Article status by Pi.1415926535 (talk). Self-nominated at 23:35, 13 June 2021 (UTC).[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: The hook is interesting. The Copyvio Detector shows that violation is unlikely. The QPG is good. Salukk (talk) 10:43, 16 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The use of “circumferential” is hard to understand, but so far as I can make out it is a way to say circle route. I do not see anything circular here, could someone please say what meaning is intended? Also, I have never come across the word “ridership” in England, or the word or “headway” with this meaning, for those of us confused by them could they please be linked to Patronage (transportation) and headway? It could also be useful to say early on “the number of passengers (ridership)” . Moonraker (talk) 21:39, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]