Talk:Margrave

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Wait, Fastifex, I didn't say places containing "Mark" are always related to "margrave". I wish you'd read contributions from others properly. I said both 'mark' and 'margrave' derive from the term 'mark - borderland'. The connecting term is 'mark' not 'margrave', and that is the only reason why 'Mark' and 'margrave' are related, they derive from the same stem. Yes, the word 'Mark' later took on the meaning 'area', but originally it was the 'mark', the border' or 'borderland' which determined the meaning of place-names, and when place-names were formed it was still the 'border' concept that determined the names. By the way, the word 'mark' - 'border' goes back to Proto-Indo-European roots. Dieter Simon 00:44, 30 January 2006 (UTC) What about Musgrave? The Meu(r)se river was a border between the Roman and German. Did it loose its "R" similar to circare, cherche', search becomming seek and suche? Wasn't it spelled Mearc for awhile like Murcia?[reply]

I am afraid this is quite a supposition. The name Musgrave or Musgrove, according to The Penguin Dictionary of Surnames derives from 'a grove full of mice', such as in places in Cumbria and Somerset. I think you are making a lot of assumptions here. The English word 'seek' and the German word 'suchen' both come via quite a different route, namely from Latin sagire, which in its turn comes from the PIE word sâg, to track or trace', so never had an 'r' in it.

Dieter Simon (talk) 23:38, 4 April 2010 (UTC) Is there a relationship between Marcgrave, Margrave, and Musgrave?[reply]

Hi again, Fastifex, ok, you are making your point again and again to the potential reader, most of the "Mark" places have nothing to do with 'margrave' or 'margraviate'. I agree with you, most have to do with 'border areas'. But as for 'Markgenossenschaft', are you sure there are any places named after 'Markgenossenschaften'? Don't forget they were early cooperatives, consisting of 'Gemarkungen', parts of the whole and named after the nearest already existing villages. It would almost be a kind of back-formation, wouldn't it? Anyway, you must know. Dieter Simon 00:56, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Quite frankly, I must have missed your first entry here (drowned in my long watchlist?), so I'm reading both now. I DO read the article properly, but you seemed to miss the point that this page is not on marks, but on margraves, hence only margraviates are actually relevant, not any other 'borderland'. Furthermore, Germany is a relatively young country by European standards- while names in the Roman provinces mostly trace back to Antiquity, hugue areas of Germany were colonised much later, with all kinds of 'modern' village names, sometimes referring to the origin of settlers, sometimes to those authorising, but also local references in the German pragmatical style. As it is irrelevant here which other use prevails, I've melted the Markgenossenschaft- and market-alternatives. What I don't get is why you state the (rather obvious) Proto-I-G root Fastifex 10:26, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

All I meant was, that 'Mark', the borderland comes first, before any margrave were probably thought of, although I'm not sure about that. That's what I meant by it being so old as to belong to the PIE language space. I don't know whether the Mark you mentioned is the same as the one in the Sauerland near Lünen, in today's North Rhine-Westphalia, you were right of course that it was 'borderland'. "Wissen" states it to having derived from Middle-Latin marca - Grenze.

Yes, the argument, if there is one, does carry us away from 'margrave' and 'margraviate', my original rejoinder to you was meant to say that 'Mark' places do not indeed all derive from 'margraviates' but more importantly from 'borderlands'. That's all. Good luck. Dieter Simon 15:31, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The old historical German region is "Mark Brandenburg" and never "Mark of Brandenburg". See this in the German Wikipedia, and it is grammatically wrong to add an "of" in the name in the English Wiki. "Mark Brandenburg" is the actual name of the region, and the name is not reflected as noun phrase such as the "Land of Brandenburg" or the "town of Weimar". Nowadays Brandenburg is of course one of the states of Germany. I have changed it in the article. Dieter Simon 00:24, 30 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: All titles are historically of a military origin. Markgrafen, and Marcher Lord are not always or even mostly similar.

Marcher Lord, in the Anglo-celtic sense, is a lord with rights to a certain area. Whereas a Markgraf is usually a particular grafen who is also soveriegn. The entire purpose of the HRE. A Markgraf (Margrave) originally functioned as the military governor of a Carolingian mark, a medieval border province. Or a warband leader for a herzog (duke), Or someone who is suppose to keep pressure on a group or their lands, and originated as Marchio from Romans.

gradually diminished the politico-military distinctions of superior rank among margraves and the other hereditary lords of the kingdom. Markgrafen are hereditary Nobles, more correct to say princes'. As a Markgrafen held their own land as soveriegn and no markgrafen I heard is subject to another outside the Emporer.

the Count appointed margrave usually exercised greater politico-military power than did the other nobles (counts) of the monarchy. Actually they execerised the exact same level as any Grafen.

Marchia Orientalis in Latin, the "eastern borderland", Means "March Oriental", Means the "March of the East"; There is no mention of borderlands. From Latin oriens meaning "rising"; orior "to rise". It's in reference to the sun rises in the east if I remember correctly.

In the late Middle Ages, as marches lost their military importance, margraviates developed into hereditary monarchies, Seriously? You are 3-400 years out of date. Hereditary monarchies of the Markgrafen, which is German: Heiliges Römisches Reich, Latin: Imperium Romanum Sacrum, Italian: Sacro Romano Impero. Then they where hereditary monarchies by the early medieval period according to history. That means before AD 1100. Not AD 1400's.

comparable in all but name to duchies Again, not true. A HRE stem duchy was far more powerful and sort after. Because it had more rights, over not just your own landen, but over others generally. You need to understand how it worked. Herzog of Joe blogs, was nothing compared to Herzog Swaben, Saschen et cetera...

You cannot cast a broad brush. The HRE had thee mose complicated system in history, nothing outside it compares.

A unique case was the Golden Bull of 1356 (issued by Charles IV, the Holy Roman Emperor and King of Bohemia), recognizing the Margrave of Brandenburg as an elector of the Holy Roman Empire, membership of the highest college within the Imperial diet carrying the politically significant privilege of being the sole electors of the non-hereditary Emperor, which was previously de facto restricted to dukes and three prince-archbishops (Cologne, Mainz and Trier); other non-ducal lay members would be the King of Bohemia and the Palatine of the Rhenish Electorate of the Palatinate. The King of Bohemia himself ruled over the Margravate of Moravia or appointed a Margrave to that post.

Actually, it's not unique. pfalzgrafen bein rhein was the head of the house of the wittelsbach, the 2nd line was Herzog Bayern. A stem duchy. They split with the Pfalzgrafen taking the palatine of Bavaria, and later the Palatine of Lotharingen. Which became Pfalzgrafen von Rhein. Understand your subject. King of Bohemia only sometimes controlled Moravia. And with both the Lutzelburg, (luxembourg) House; The King of Bohemia was a subjegated title to the herzog lutzelburg. Also it's King of Bohemia, not, kingdom of Bohemia. Minor technicality. And king of Bohemia could also not vote in election of the emporer. As per the golden bull of AD 1368. Mark Brandenburg, was an imperial subsidary title that was quite often treated as hereditary. So not unique. prince-archbishop mainz, is primas germanae. So understandable. prince-archbishop Trier is arch-chancellor of the Kingdom of Arles. prince-archbishop Koln is Arch-chancellor of the Kingdom of Italy.

As the title of margrave lost its military connotation, it became more and more used as a mere 'peerage' rank Markgrafen has always been a peerage rank. Never in it's history has it been anything but. And all titled noble ranks have a military connation.

higher than Graf (count) and its associated compound titles such as Landgraf, Gefürsteter Graf and Reichsgraf, but lower than Herzog (duke). Again, not true. So many factors govern this that a braod stroke is bordering on a lie. How many votes do they have compared to other grafen? That was the real determining factor. Landgraften ranked higher than some herzog.

Marksuhl Or it could mean what the Babenburg house intended. The Mark of Suhl to stop those nasty conradines from attacking during the great feud??

County of Mark Now thats really stupid. Grafen von Mark, from le marck. The House le Marck (of marck), Grafen (Merck) Marck. English Mark. Became Herzog Berg; Herzog Julich; Of Herzog Berg Julich & Mark. Or with check gules on sable armourial. Castle is the castle of Mark, or originally, Le Merck in Westphilia of Saxon origin.

country of Denmark (meaning 'march of the Danes') Originally means the Land of the Danes. Dane Mark. Again mark refers to a landen, any landen. Doesn't need to be titled.

Mark in German, after the high medieval period is any land grouping. But a mark can be any unsettled area, or area prone to unrest. Kent was a March for 500 years. It was considered the most unsettled part of Britian for centuries.

Since when have Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, etc., been Western languages? Did they really have noblemen with these titles? Or has this become simply a multi-lingual dictionary list? I'm not sure what the intent was, but I would say a list of titles actually used in nations that had nobles holding the rank/function of a margrave is appropriate, but a dictionary list is not. --Bermicourt (talk) 13:17, 11 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Also, I believe that the Kanji quoted (辺境, henkyo) refer to a border area, rather than to the ruler of such an area. 87.112.129.139 (talk) 14:11, 27 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Missed a peice from above.

Golden Bull of 1356 (issued by Charles IV, the Holy Roman Emperor and King of Bohemia), 

GOLDEN BULLS ARE ISSUED BY POPES NOT EMPERORS. ffs. This is simpleton stuff. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.149.58.245 (talk) 11:40, 9 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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