Talk:Tales of the Jedi (TV series)

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved - No consensus that the proposed title is the one used by reliable sources for subject matter covered by this article. Part of the issue here appears to have been caused by the show-runners themselves create ambiguity, which is not something Wikipedia is going to be able to resolve. (non-admin closure) FOARP (talk) 10:20, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Tales of the Jedi (TV series) → Star Wars: Tales – Since this move made nearly three months ago has been objected to, here is an RM. I personally don't agree with the need as consensus was reached on the matter. Never the less, this anthology series had its first installment released as (formally) Star Wars: Tales of the Jedi (commonly Tales of the Jedi) in October 2022, with it announced in April 2023 that it would get a second season (wording used by media outlets, though the quote from Filoni was "Tales of the Jedi was so fun the first time, I decided to do some more.") Subsequently, it was announced a year later in April 2024 that this second "season" was a new "installment", Star Wars: Tales of the Empire (commonly Tales of the Empire). This press release shows the use of both formal names as well as the key quote in my view (and the determination of the previous consensus) that Tales of the Empire was the second installment of the "Tales" series. Thus, an appropriate name to address this anthology series considering the formal name would be Star Wars: Tales, which provides a WP:NATURAL name. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:25, 2 July 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 17:46, 9 July 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 05:42, 21 July 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 10:39, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Support as nom and the previous uncontroversial/WP:BOLDMOVE consensus to this title previously. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:26, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  WP:RMCOMMENT, you shouldn't be adding an additional support as your RM is your support. Gonnym (talk) 09:13, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Support per nom. I don't think every title change that gets an undiscussed move necessitates grounds for a full RM just to "officially" signify past consensus from a discussion, though here we are. Star Wars: Tales is a more official title for this series as has been brought up and proven already and it provides a WP:NATURAL disambiguation. This title was not contested until @Gonnym: moved it without first adequately consulting the established consensus at this talk, and it should not have been moved by them in the first place without much discussion beforehand. Trailblazer101 (talk) 18:54, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per nom. Gonnym should not have moved the page back (twice!) without gaining consensus first. - adamstom97 (talk) 20:10, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. A two day discussion that was not publicized anywhere is not a real discussion nor is it consensus. While bold moves are allowed, once objected, they must go through RM. It's a bit concerning that a small group of well-intentioned editors have seemingly created their own personal fiefdom in a group of articles. Regarding the issue, part of the reason WP:CRYSTAL (a policy) exists, is that some things that are planned are eventually changed by the time that they actually happen. Take this an example, Favre gives this as a source for the page move. That article was published a month before Tales of the Empire premiered. When it did, it did not join Tales of the Jedi on Disney+ as a new season but instead received a new entry. IMDb and Wookieepedia entries are also different between the two shows (see Tales of the Jedi (TV series)#External links for the links). This is a clear example of how jumping to conclusions has created on en.wiki an incorrect title (and article) that does not match the real-world situation. I'd advise anyone closing it to remember that consensus is not based on counting votes. To comment on one of the above (as one vote did not add anything), Star Wars: Tales is a more official title for this series as has been brought up and proven already and it provides a WP:NATURAL disambiguation. not it hasn't and WP:NATURAL has nothing to do with two different series sharing an article, nor do we shy away from "(TV series)" in disambiguation and look for other unnatural options. Gonnym (talk) 09:10, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is no requirement to publicise discussions elsewhere, especially when they appear to be uncontroversial. You are the one who made a bold edit when you decided to revert the move several months later with no discussion, and you violated WP:BRD when you re-reverted after your bold move was undone. The article needs to be restored until a new consensus is formed. - adamstom97 (talk) 09:42, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would just like to note that IMDb and Wookipedia are not reliable sources and are generated by users, so those cannot be taken as concrete evidence to support something without a third-party reliable source (which Gonnym has not supplied through all of this for their rationale). Since other wikis were brought up, the Disney wiki also uses "Star Wars: Tales" as the sole series title, though, again, those wikis are all unreliable and we should not base our site off of those. These are clearly not two different series (and no source was provided to support that). See the third paragraph in the Development section which verifies Empire being developed as the second season (or rather, at the very least, the second set of shorts in the Tales series), which was agreed upon per the talk discussion above, so there is consensus for that change (not the most recent ones). I will note that how content is placed on Disney+ does not solely determine what it actually is, and that service has a tendency to change how such content is even arranged. While I still want to assume good faith, I'm starting to have slight WP:I don't like it concerns here with repeated violations of procedures in the name of being right. The WP:STATUSQUO of this article being for both collections of shorts under the cited title Star Wars: Tales should have remained in place and not been altered before a proactive discussion took place. Plus, the way this article currently stands with its title is erroneous and incorrect for the contents of the article.

To bring in some additional sources for context, on Disney+, Jedi is called a "a 6 episode event" while Empire is "a six episode journey", while StarWars.com also called Jedi the first season when the second was announced. Space.com also called Jedi the "predecessor" of Empire. Contrasting this, IGN, Collider, and Screen Rant both say Jedi season 2 became Empire, not that is somehow no longer the second season. No sources have been provided that explicitly state Empire is not season 2, and we should not be changing this article based on the opinion of one lone editor. If need be, it may be a good compromise to alter mentions of this being a single series to being a collection of animated shorts as some sources provided have called it, if the season ambiguity post-release does not suffice other's concerns. Trailblazer101 (talk) 21:13, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Gonnym: if you have issue with Star Wars: Tale as a "main" landing page for what is clearly an anthology-style series of distinctly named "seasons", what is your suggestion? There is not enough information in my opinion to justify articles at both Tales of the Jedi (TV series) and Tales of the Empire given until the Empire title was revealed, it was assumed we would be getting Tales of the Jedi season 2. I will note that all relevant article titles for these two names were redirected here after the subsequent move. I don't see how the fact that each are their own entry on Disney+ has any relevance to how we collect and present the info here. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Of the 7 links Trailblazer cited above, 2 Disney+ links I can't access (geo-location blocked probably), 4 links are from April before Empire was released and one is from Space.com which isn't a TV related website so I highly doubt they did any real journalism here and probably copy/pasted information they saw online. @Favre, clearly an anthology-style series of distinctly named "seasons", but it isn't. As pointed below American Horror Story is an anthology series with seasons. It appears like that on Disney+ and Hulu. Tales of the Jedi and Tales of the Empire do not. They might share similar title structure and format, but Disney+ decided they are unique shows. Why? Not for us to care or speculate (WP:OR). The shows are currently two distinct shows and should have two distinct articles. Gonnym (talk) 06:42, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisting comment: Additional relist, to allow discussion of what name is used by reliable and independent sources BilledMammal (talk) 05:42, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: Is there any coverage that explicitly uses Star Wars: Tales? The press release and the pulled quote, the second installment of the "Tales" series, does not use this title and instead just use the word Tales by itself. That is not the same as the source saying this series is called Star Wars: Tales. I just think there needs to be more solid evidence that this is a name that is being used for this show. Aoba47 (talk) 18:40, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  @Aoba47: I don't believe so, no. But if you go simply on Tales, disambiguation of some sort would be needed, and one I don't thing would fully be helpful or intuitive over "Star Wars: Tales", which I noted in my move post is the OFFICIAL/formal names of each series and thus creates an easier/NATURAL disambiguation for the title. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 14:58, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  @Favre1fan93: Thank you for the response. Apologies for being unclear in my original comment. I was not suggesting that this should be moved to Tales. I was more so just wondering if Star Wars: Tales was ever used in a more official capacity. Thank you for answering that. This is a weird situation (even in the context of anthology shows), but I am uncertain about moving the article to a title that has never been used officially. I wonder if Tales of the Jedi and Tales of the Empire should be treated as two different shows and have two separate Wikipedia articles? The press release refers to Empire as the second installment rather than the second season. I am not sure if it matters, but StarWars.com lists Jedi and Empire as two separate shows (here) and not two seasons of the same series. Aoba47 (talk) 16:47, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Sorry for misinterpreting your question. Given they are still, in a way, "seasons" of the overarching anthology series, there are similarities between both, and I personally don't believe there is enough content to justify two separate articles when one currently covers it all and is a good length and size, I think this needs to be the "main" article a la American Horror Story for the various individual AHS "seasons"/installments that exists. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:50, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  No need to apologize. I could have been clearer in my original comment. I actually was thinking about American Horror Story while looking through the article and this discussion. What confuses me is that Disney is seemingly treating Jedi and Empire more like separate things, like with Disney+ having separate listings for each (here and here) without a main series title. I contrast that with how American Horror Stories and Feud are represented as a single entity with multiple seasons on Hulu (here and here) and both have a clearer main series title.

  This press release for Tales of the Empire does not even mention Tales of the Jedi. This article from The Hollywood Reporter references Empire as a "follow-up" to Jedi; I read differently as a second season of a main series, but I think the wording is vague. It is weird how unclear Disney is with the branding and overall presentation for this. I do not think Star Wars: Tales would work without evidence of it being officially used (á la American Horror Story and Feud), but I do have an alternative in mind either. Aoba47 (talk) 18:01, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Oppose. Upon further reflection, I do agree with Darkknight2149's comments. I agree that Tales would be the preferrable title as I do not see any evidence of Star Wars: Tales being used in connection with either Tales of the Jedi or Tales of the Empire. Aoba47 (talk) 03:05, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I wonder if Tales of the Jedi and Tales of the Empire should be treated as two different shows and have two separate Wikipedia articles, yes, they should. Gonnym (talk) 18:28, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisting comment: Final relist, per previous relisting comment BilledMammal (talk) 10:39, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Support somewhat due to poor alternatives, but staying at the current title is not really acceptable, at least in the current state of things. Star Wars: Tales of the Jedi and the Empire seems a bit unruly. Tales (Star Wars) maybe would address the format of its use in RS, but I dunno... feels weird. It's odd because I don't think that the two should really be split, making a good name tough. I am normally an advocate of WP:SUMMARYSTYLE since Wikipedia is WP:NOTPAPER, but not paper also tells asks us if it can be done, should it be done? I am unconvinced a split is beneficial in this case. The content for just six, very short episodes, and a list of songs is the bulk of splittable content. Not all of it, but the bulk of it. I think this is more like Hellsing and List of Hellsing episodes, which are made up of multiple distinctly named series and/or runs, yet covered comprehensively in one place (I say one meaning the entire franchise, or one single list of episodes). Another example would be if one wants info on Rilakkuma's Theme Park Adventure, they would find it under Rilakkuma and Kaoru. Splitting Rilakkuma's Theme Park Adventure seems ridiculous to me, but I could be wrong... In those situations though, the first series title is broad enough to easily include subsequent series, whereas this gets so specific.

  My concern becomes WP:CANYOUREADTHIS (ironic since WP:Article size in general gives more weight to splitting)? Are we really helping readers sending them to two different pages where one page has a lot of development information and the other page is limited to one or two sentences of development information without additional context just so we can have two separate episode lists (and I guess soundtrack lists if readers really care about those)? It seems like it would be unbalanced. And if we do provide that additional context that might have gone missing, it would seem to me like we are starting to WP:OVERLAP too much in a seemingly unnecessary WP:CONTENTFORK and doing additional disservice to a reader that just wants differences, yet is forced to sift through a lot of repeat information. Seems like things are getting hung up on technicalities. Do we need to call this a TV series page? Why not call it a franchise page covering the two? I don't know if that's actually better since the name issue remains, but the point being that it would allow comprehensive coverage without a drill down to 1.5 separate pages.

  Now I say things like unconvinced and seemingly because I could be convinced, but this is a RM, and convincing me would be more of a split discussion, which I currently oppose for reasons above, but could be swayed if someone were to sandbox it and show that separate articles (forget notability, I know notability would be satisfied) would actually make reader navigation easier while maintaining comprehensive coverage. Procedurally, I !vote move, propose split, sandbox it to show the benefits, move back, if necessary. -2pou (talk) 17:53, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose - Per below. No anthology TV series titled Star Wars: Tales appears to exist, although there is a franchise of Star Wars limited series that primary sources refer to as "Tales" encompassing both Tales of the Jedi and Tales of the Empire. If these shows remain under the same article, then calling it Star Wars: Tales would be synthesis.

From official sources, we have Star Wars: Tales of the Jedi, Star Wars: Tales of the Empire, and the overall anthology franchise, which is simply Tales. Darkknight2149 04:17, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. There isn't a two-season series called Star Wars: Tales. There is a franchise called Tales which includes two different anthology animated series, respectively called Star Wars: Tales of the Jedi and Star Wars: Tales of the Empire. Note how, for example, this Deadline article describes the topic. It does not describe a Star Wars: Tales show but rather a franchise simply called Tales that includes Tales of the Jedi and Tales of the Empire. As such, Star Wars: Tales is not a WP:NATURAL title for the article; it doesn't appear in reliable sources. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 07:02, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]