Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Turkey Backed Free Syrian Army

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. (non-admin closure) J947 21:35, 24 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Turkey Backed Free Syrian Army (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. - CHAMPION ^{(talk) (contributions) (logs)} 03:17, 19 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Syria-related deletion discussions. - CHAMPION ^{(talk) (contributions) (logs)} 03:17, 19 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Turkey-related deletion discussions. - CHAMPION ^{(talk) (contributions) (logs)} 03:17, 19 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There is no such group called the "Turkey-backed Free Syrian Army". There is, however, an alliance of FSA groups backed by Turkey and is the main Syrian rebel group participating in Euphrates Shield. It is called the Hawar Kilis Operations Room. Editor abcdef (talk) 03:08, 19 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Just wondering: why do you start talking about those 'Hawar Kilis Operations Room'? The whole point here is, that no army called 'Turkey-backed Free Syrian Army' or 'Turkish Free Syrian Army' exists. So it is not allowed for a Wiki editor (or a Wiki project) to invent an army under such name and suggest that it exist.

--Corriebertus (talk) 20:23, 27 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Corriebertus, just a suggestion, do a news search (try Thomson Newsroom or factiva... but if you don't have access, try Google news) for "Turkey backed Free Syrian Army" or 'Turkish backed Free Syrian Army' Plenty of articles on it. 'Hawar Kilis Operations Room' seems to be a component of the TFSA but there is very little on it. CheersDeathlibrarian (talk) 22:38, 27 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. The TFSA (or the Turkey Backed Free Syrian Army) is a term used to describe the rebel units allied with Turkey, operating in Operation Euphrates Shield. They are a distinct group from the FSA in that they are (1) paid by Turkey (2) mainly Turkmen and Arabs (3) fight the Kurds and IS, but have had little actual contact with the SAA (which is probably the main group the reguler FSA fights and (4) They get their weapons from Turkey. You could argue that they are a distinct Turkey Proxy. They are definitely *not* the same as the Free Syrian Army, which was largely based in Aleppo, and is now in Idlib and a few other areas (if it exists at all!) Deathlibrarian (talk) 03:59, 19 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

TFSA or Turkey Backed Free Syrian Army is certainly more used than terms like the "Mare Operations room", and the "Hawar Kilis Operations oom"... these terms aren't generally used, and seem to be specific to certain sub groups. The main term in use by people writing on the conflict for the overall collective of rebels operating in this operation is TFSA, and the media (if you have a look at the articles) uses Turkey Backed Free Syrian Army or something similiar Deathlibrarian (talk) 04:33, 19 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Anyways "Turkey Backed Free Syrian Army" is a very strange article name. What about the name "Syrian National Army" as proposed by Turkey?^[1][2] Editor abcdef (talk) 08:48, 20 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Article title probably should be "Turkish Free Syrian Army" or "Turkish-Free Syrian Army". Erdogan may have proposed it called "Syrian National Army", but I don't think anyone calls them that?A the moment, most people call them the TFSA, to differentiate from the FSA. If the Turks bring them together, and re-name them all the "Syrian National Army", I guess that's what they should be called at that point. Deathlibrarian (talk) 11:23, 20 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. The supposed ‘Turkey Backed Free Syrian Army’ seems now an invention of one or more Wiki editors. The presented sources seem distorted. The term 'T-b Free Syrian Army' relies on only one ref source: ref 1, RT(5Sep2016) writing: "The Turkey-backed Free Syrian Army has eliminated …". That sentence simply means: the FSA—which we all know of—is being backed by Turkey. There's no ground to suppose/suggest it means to say that there are two FSA's! So: the info can and should simply be placed in article FSA.
  ref 2, VOA: 'Who are the Turkey backed Syrian Rebels?' (25Aug2016) bears on 'factions loosely known as Free Syrian Army' (some of them) 'empowered by Turkey', it does not speak of a 'Turkey Backed Free Syrian Army'. Info on such factions should either be recorded in articles on those factions—if we have their names—or simply in article FSA. --Corriebertus (talk) 13:10, 21 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment Corriebertus- The problem here is, the media hasn't settled on a name for this force - however....There *is* an army in the Euphrates shield area, it is a distinct rebel army that is aligned, has the same goals, and is supported and takes its orders from Turkey, and it is distinct from the Free Syrian Army. I agree, the media doesn't give it a name, but that fact alone doesn't mean the army doesn't exist. There are articles that refer to its existence. Also, it is commonly referred to as the Turkish Free Syrian Army on the Reddit discussion about the Syrian Civil War (check for yourself here https://www.reddit.com/r/syriancivilwar/) - however that doesn't qualify as a source for wikipedia which is why I hadn't mentioned it - Deathlibrarian (talk) 21:46, 21 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As I said, there's no ground (presented) that this TFSA is distinct from the FSA we already have in article Free Syrian Army. The lead of article FSA even explicitly states now that "Turkish intervention in Syria has revived FSA fortunes in Northern Syria, with on-ground support of an organised military backed by Turkish airpower" -- which is not exactly the same but tends towards what article TFSA also seems to assert; we should always allow for different news sources to lay different accents in reporting on the same events. --Corriebertus (talk) 07:37, 22 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• CommentI'd completely disagree with that. TFSA is very different than the FSA, different aims, motivations - TFSA is fundamentally a Turkish proxy. To include them in the same WIKI article is completely wrong. TFSA is attacking the Kurds, at the behest of Turkey, while the FSA attacks Assad, and has been defending their homelands. There are *many* articles and threads on the Syrian Civil War Reddit that support this. Deathlibrarian (talk) 11:02, 22 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Recently, the page's title is changed into "Turkish Free Syrian Army". This does not change my opinion that the article must be deleted. The existence of an army with this name is total fantasy (thus framing or propaganda) and it is a shame for Wikipedia to promote wishfull thinking/fantasy(/propaganda) into an article. I don't deny that groups (called FSA) are fighting there, but self-proclaiming them as an army with an invented name is very non-wiki. It's quite possible that not all FSA groups have the same motivations, opponents, etc. but we can and should differentiate that in article FSA first. --Corriebertus (talk) 14:43, 22 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I completely disagree with you. The fact that people are saying the TFSA article should be combined with the FSA article, is *completely* misrepresentative - they are distinct groups and Wikipedia should reflect that. To gloss over the differences, could arguably see wikipedia promoting a pro Turkish viewpoint - ie that the TFSA is the same as the FSA, whereas in fact, they are largely Turkish proxies, very much aligned with Turkish goals(for instance, attacking the Kurds) rather than FSA goals. As far as I can see, they have been grouped together and are paid and supported by Turkey. I agree the name may be problematical (which I think is half the problem), but the two are distinct groups, and TFSA is what people are using in Reddit. If people can think of a better one, please suggest it. Cheers! Deathlibrarian (talk) 22:48, 22 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Death: your army(units) are called 'FSA', yet you claim they are distinct, not part of the 'other' FSA. Can you prove that? It seems to me that you personally perhaps dislike the 'other' (not Turkey-backed) FSA groups and therefore want to dissociate 'your' Turkey-backed groups from the rest of the FSA-titled groups. By the way, what is Reddit? --Corriebertus (talk) 20:34, 27 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

--Corriebertus It's arguable that there actually is *no* FSA, and it's just a loose term assigned as a term of convenience for various militia, and ther is no formal structure which has no concrete existence. In that sense, it's actually hard to dislike or like the FSA, as you could be talking about extreme arab militia, or actual moderates. The moderates in the FSA have long been on the decline, particularly post SAA takeover of Aleppo. Personally, I'm not really a fan of either, I think the group doing the most good in Syria are the Kurdish SDF. The Reddit discusison I posted to w is one of the main areas on the internet where the Syrian civil war is discussed Deathlibrarian (talk) 05:24, 28 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge and redirect whatever is viable to Hawar Kilis Operations Room and/or Operation Euphrates Shield, as per above. In any event, the name is unwieldy and should - at the very least - be changed to "Turkish Free Syrian Army" or something simpler. GAB^gab 00:09, 22 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment I agree, as per people's requests, I have now changed the title to "Turkish Free Syrian Army", which is a lot more appropriate than the old title. Should of done that in the first place in retrospect. Hindsight is always 20/20!. Thanks for the input everyone. Deathlibrarian (talk) 10:55, 22 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment As has been noted, there have been moves to call the TFSA the "Syrian National Army" see article:

“6 Factions Constitute the Core of Turkey-Backed Syrian National Army” Asharq Al-Awsat (English Edition) 19 February 2017 Deathlibrarian (talk) 06:25, 23 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - I've just added a number of more articles, I hope this makes the article clearer.Deathlibrarian (talk) 06:27, 23 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - There needs to be some modifier to the not-yet existing "Syrian National Army" so that it won't be confused with the Syrian Army. The former doesn't really exist yet as I said. Editor abcdef (talk) 10:54, 23 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, agree....Deathlibrarian (talk) 11:03, 23 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 20:04, 28 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep – I am of the opinion, based on the various sources, that the TFSA is a significantly different group to the FSA, despite the similar name. Also, comment – I have cleaned up the article. RadiculousJ (talk) 21:31, 28 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep – As above, TFSA (fundamentally a Turkish aligned proxy force) is a completely different organisation to the FSA. Name is loosely applied to both, but different organisations with different motivations, commands, alignment and support structures Deathlibrarian (talk) 03:39, 1 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep – I am of the opinion, based on the various sources, that the TFSA is a significantly different group to the FSA, despite the similar name. --Panam2014 (talk) 19:58, 2 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Syrian groups under Turkish command that recently captured Al-Bab. AlessandroTiandelli333 (talk) 18:23, 10 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep – As above, TFSA (fundamentally a Turkish aligned proxy force) is a completely different organisation to the FSA. Name is loosely applied to both, but different organisations with different motivations, commands, alignment and support structures Deathlibrarian (talk) 03:39, 1 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete Turkish Free Syrian Army isn't a real entity, but some FSA units were fighting in Al Bab campaign. This text can be moved to Turkish intervention article. Kavas (talk) 13:06, 17 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep – These aren't FSA units, they are rebels allied with Turkey/Turkish proxies, they need a separate article from the FSA article. Completely different group to the FSA. Name is loosely applied to both, but different organisations with different motivations, commands, alignment and support structures. Deathlibrarian (talk) 03:39, 1 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Because as above, TFSA (fundamentally a Turkish aligned proxy force) is a completely different organisation to the FSA.FFA P-16 (talk) 10:57, 19 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • FSA is more than a single entity, but they are some groups who share the same goal of fighting for revolution. So claiming a completely different organisation isn't justified. Some of FSA units in ES are now returned to Idlib to fight against SAA, so they're not completely different from rebels in Idlib (which is described as FSA). In the ground, these groups can switch from fighting in Idlib or in Al Bab. Finally, Idlib based FSA is also Turkish backed. Kavas (talk) 09:33, 23 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep I think we have enough for an article, regardless of whether TFSA is an incorporated body with a membership roster, or just a loose term being thrown around for some rebel bands vaguely aligned with Turkey somehow. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:13, 23 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.