Talk:Black Gives Way to Blue/Archive 1

From WP:R2D-

Do not "fix" links to redirects that are not broken

My previous edit summary was unclear. Rather than skipping a redirect page, my link correctly navigates around a disambig page. --Kingoomieiii ♣ Talk 15:50, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

A looking In View wasn't released as an official single, technically Check My Brain is the 1st single. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.2.30.67 (talk) 00:49, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=124810 "ALICE IN CHAINS has tapped U2 and WHITE STRIPES video director Alex Courtes to shoot a clip for "Check My Brain", the first single from "Black Gives Way To Blue", which arrives on September 29." "Although it's been posted online and is not an official single, the recently released ALICE IN CHAINS song "A Looking In View" has already begun climbing the rock radio charts as the first new music released by the group in 14 years." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.2.30.67 (talk) 00:59, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

A Looking in View certainly was released as a single. I can go purchase it as a single at iTunes and Amazon.com. It wasn't released to radio, and Check My Brain will be, so technically Check My Brain will be the first radio single, but it will not be the first actual single from the album. In closing, A Looking in View was released as a commercial single, it is from this album, so it is the first single from this album.-5- (talk) 19:10, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Album Leaked: September 18, 2009—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.254.255.146 (talk)

Wrong date. It was the 17th.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.186.246.195 (talk)

The fact that an album has leaked on the Internet isn't notable, so don't add it again. See WP:LEAK for more information on this. Thanks. Erzsébet Báthory_{(talk|contr.)} 00:59, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Is anyone able to find the amount of album sales in countries other than the United States?--Mr ComeGo (talk) 22:30, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Grunge. Really? I mean, Grunge ended in the nineties, anything you do will always be named post-grunge. I would go far by naming it Alternative Metal, Rock or Post-Grunge as stated. Feel Free to Comment.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnny_pt (talk • contribs)

It's not Grunge! Grunge ended in the nineties! Don't you people realize that? Damn, it's all rock music.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnny_pt (talk • contribs)

Agreed. Stop adding "grunge". Grunge isn't a genre, it was a scene. Maybe you people should study music, then you'll realise Alice in Chains is, and always was a heavy metal band.

I challenge you to find a reliable source that claims this album is "grunge" - and I don't just mean the source briefly mentions this word somewhere in the review, for example "Grunge pioneers Alice in Chains". It has to actually say that Black Gives Way to Blue is a grunge album. You won't find one, because this album is not grunge. 121.222.179.94 (talk) 10:59, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

It's not grunge because grunge ended in the nineties? This is not some stupid Staind or Godsmack or Nickelback album, it's by Alice in Chains, one of the most notable and influential bands to even come out of that movement. If this is not a grunge album, then neither is anything else Alice in Chains ever released. Now I agree that grunge isn't really a genre of music, it's a subgenre if anything, but your logic is completely screwed up on this matter.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.121.97.216 (talk)

That "movement" was not a genre. That "movement" was just a regional music scene, like any other, that just happened to gain huge commercial success. Look at all the different Seattle bands. None of them sound similar to any of the other bands. "Grunge" was just a media supported word that sought to lump together vastly different musicians from the same area, for commercial purposes.

So actually, it's your logic (or lack thereof) that is "screwed". No Alice in Chains album was ever grunge. No Alice in Chains album will ever be grunge. Even look at all the post-Vitalogy Pearl Jam albums as well - there are no hopeless, desperate "grunge fanboys" that try to add this fake genre to those albums, because their fans aren't retarded enough to believe in a made up genre. Study some music history, and music theory beyond Wikipedia, and you might actually learn something.

Unless you can find a reliable source explicitly calling Black Gives Way to Blue a "grunge album", you should not add it. 121.222.179.94 (talk) 03:52, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

I have changed the genre field to Alternative metal, hard rock, and heavy metal, and I have sourced this using Allmusic (see here). 121.222.179.94 (talk) 07:38, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

I have only ever known Alice in chains as grunge music. Sure grunge was a 90's thing, but as i recall this band is from the 90s. Alice in chains is mentioned in the article Grunge music as well as [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8]. These aren't just review pages, MTV, Amazon.com and Alice in Chains' MySpace page all state that the band is classed as Grunge. It would be nice if 121.222.179.94 could provide some sources stating Alice in Chains are NOT grunge. They maybe classed as heavy metal in the genre category, but it doesn't mean they're not also classed as grunge.Wiki ian 08:11, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Just FYI in relation to one of your edit summaries, the conversation actually took place between myself, another anonymous user, and a registered editor, so please don't attempt to create a misconception that this was a one sided discussion.

Back on topic, of course those pages all state the band is "grunge", as the categorization of completely different bands under one media constructed name happened twenty years ago, and that history has stuck. What I'm getting at is, even though things have been proven to be wrong or slightly inaccurate in history, popular culture takes a long time to rectify things, or never even does so.

"Grunge" as a music genre does not exist. That is, there is no sonic similarities between bands labeled "grunge", and anything that can be said about "grunge" can also be said to be a trait of other genres.

"Distorted guitars", you say? "Loud-Quiet dynamics"? Sorry, but all of that existed long before "grunge", and neither of those are unique to this so-called genre.

"But both Soundgarden and Alice in Chains' music is distorted, dissonant, and has a dark atmosphere, so they do sound the same" - Indeed, but the similarities are not to an extent that their sound could be considered part of a unique genre. Kyuss sounds a lot like Soundgarden, why not label them grunge as well?

Really, and most people do accept this, "grunge" was just a word to refer to Seattle's rock music scene, which was made up of bands who played different genres.

So, in effect, "grunge" doesn't exist as a genre, but it did exist as a movement or era. Many Seattle bands gained popularity at around the same time, and completely changed the industry landscape. This "grunge era" was between '89 and '96, so any music even if it is made by a grunge band cannot be "grunge" if it came after this period. This is why none of the albums by Pearl Jam after Vitalogy are labeled as "grunge" on Wikipedia.

So since "grunge" was an era rather than a distinct sound, how can an album that came after this era be called grunge? It can't, and the professional reviewers know this. That is why there are no reliable sources that explicitly state "Black Give Way to Blue is a grunge album". All of the reviews state things along the lines of "Grunge also-rans"/"Grunge has-beens", alluding to the fact that the grunge era is in the past.

On any music related website, "grunge" is obviously going to get a mention for Alice in Chains, as they were a big part of the grunge era, so really those "sources" you provided are just telling me things I already know; Alice in Chains was a part of the 90s grunge scene, this is a fact and I know it. Ironically, by providing those sources that make a general statement about AiC being part of the 90s grunge scene, and not stating BGWTB is a grunge album, you are only proving my point that this isn't a grunge album.

As with any argument, a person does not need to prove that something IS NOT, rather, you need to prove that this album IS grunge. Perhaps you're not familiar with WP:BURDEN:-

"The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation."

I am not adding any material. You and others are attempting to add material. Myslef, and others are challenging the inclusion of this material, therefore the onus is on those who wish to have "grunge" listed to provide a reliable source for this claim.

So far, no one has found a source meeting WP:RS standards that explicitly states this is a grunge album. When or if one is found, then we can include it. 121.222.179.94 (talk) 09:43, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

I have no intention of changing the page as i see there are some very strong opinions being traded here, However i will stick to what I've been saying, which follows, anything you search on google (alice in chains + grunge or black gives way to blue + grunge) comes up with multiple results, nearly every page i visited made comparisons to grunge - I could not find one page to back up your theory on grunge being made up for seatle's local bands. Lets say you are wrong and grunge does exist as a genre couldn't this album be classed post-grunge - like Silverchair's first album Frogstomp. Second , lets say you are correct and grunge never existed then you may want to either change or delete Grunge music as it contradicts what you've been saying and may cause confusion to people not as well informed as yourself. As I said I'm not editing the article, so there is no need to quote WP:BURDEN, but to put my mind to rest maybe you could provide me some external links to where you found out Alice in Chains isn't grunge, and that grunge as a genre never existed? Cheers Wiki ian 02:00, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Google tests are not an indicator of anything. I can type "my name + billionaire playboy" and come up with millions of results, however, I will not find a reputable publication making such a claim.

"I could not find one page to back up your theory on grunge being made up for seatle's local bands" - Every single article on "grunge" state that this word was coined just to describe Seattle's rock scene. "Babylon's Burning: From Punk to Grunge" (ISBN 1-84195-879-4) by Clinton Heylin quotes Mark Arm of Green River/Mudhoney as coining the term to describe the local music scene, and the word was eventually picked up by the mainstream media to collectively refer to Seattle's rock bands. So, unless I'm misinterpreting your sentence, you must be reading with your eyes closed or something ;)

• If I am wrong, and grunge does exist as a genre, then no this album could not be classified as post-grunge. Most mainstream publications, such as Allmusic, Rolling Stone, Spin etc do see grunge as a genre, yet none of them have classified this album as such. And, since post-grunge bands are those who are influenced by grunge bands (or "rip off" depending on what side of the fence you're on), how do Alice in Chains influence (or rip off) themselves? Come on, if grunge really was a genre, music magazines and websites would not hesitate to outright label BGWTB as grunge, yet they hesitate and dance around the term.

• If I am right, and grunge does not exist as a genre, yes I would want to change certain areas of the grunge article, however this is not a cause I am fighting for at this time. However, apart from a few sentences on the page, it really does not contradict me.

If you take a close look at that article in sections that describe this alleged genre, "Characteristics" and "Themes", you'll note that they only take up a tiny fraction of the article - strange that an article supposedly describing a music genre devotes only two minuscule paragraphs to it's "sound". Apart from this, the only source that is used to verify the "grunge sound" is Allmusic. Now, if you take a look at Allmusic's page on grunge, it is only one paragraph long - a one paragraph source, that actually only devotes two sentences to the sound, is being used as the only source on Wikipedia for this alleged sound.

This source is very easy to rip apart. "Grunge was a hybrid of heavy metal and punk." - Do you know how many genres this could apply to? I guess we should label thrash bands Slayer and Morbid Saint as "grunge" since thrash is a metal/punk hybrid. "Fuzzy, distorted guitars, and loud-quiet dynamics are a genre convention" - in essence, this is what Wikipedia, Allmusic and others are claiming the "grunge sound" is, yet these characteristics also apply to many other genres. I don't know how long you've been editing music related articles, or what music formus you participate in, but Allmusic is always controversial (especially with the various metal subgenres) as their genre pages contain many factual errors.

But, since I am an advocate of the view that grunge was a scene and era, rather than a genre, I view the bulk of the Wikipedia article on grunge as fine, because it mostly describes the cultural and commercial impacts of the scene. As I've been saying all along, the grunge scene had a huge impact, but it was composed of bands of multiple genres. Did you ever wonder why metalheads love AiC and Soundgarden, but trash talk Nirvana at every opportunity? Did you ever wonder why punk fans champion Nirvana, but absolutely loathe Pearl Jam? Well, this is why. They are bands of different genres.

Since this view is correct, you will not find any external link saying grunge did not exist, as the scene did exist and had huge effects on pop culture. No mainstream publication will flat out deny that grunge exists as a genre, as they view the scene and the music as one and the same. Still, like I've said, these publications never devote a significant amount of article space to describing the sound, rather only focus on the scene and its impact on society. I'm sorry, but the only way to "put your mind to rest" is to read up on the grunge scene's history as much as you can, and draw your own conclusions. Really, you're more than likely reading the right links already, but interpreting them wrong. However, every now and then on a site such as Ultimate Guitar or Pitchfork, you'll see a paragraph here and there indicating a disdain for the punk/alternative or metal sides of grunge respectively.

Grunge is no longer mainstream, so very few scholarly works are done on it. It's unlikely that in the near future a reputable source will come out and say what we all already know, i.e, grunge was a scene not a genre, so essentially my conclusions about grunge are original research, therefore I will not edit the grunge article to fit my point of view.

However, I will re-iterate my point that there are no reliable sources stating Black Gives Way to Blue is a grunge album, thus I will continue to remove "grunge" as a genre until someone does find a source for it. 121.222.179.94 (talk) 06:39, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Fuck all of you that say this album isn't grunge! Layne would kill you guys if he was still alive you jackasses! Alice in Chains is one of the most inflential bands of the grunge era, which is still alive thanks to this album and The Fixer by Pearl Jam. So what if it's not the nineties! Alice in Chains is still rocking out as if it was.

Fuck off. You're an idiot. This album is not grunge. Find a source you dipshit. 124.186.121.236 (talk) 08:21, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

i don't understand why this album is not considered grunge, it sounds the same as their old albums and they are a key band in the Grunge movement, not a post-grunge copycat, and for the most part just because a genre of music fall out of the mainstream doesn't mean its gone, maybe now its resurfacing, glam metal band hove been out of the mainstream but if they make a new album its not all of a suden going to be something else —Preceding unsigned comment added by Feedmyeyes (talk • contribs) 03:04, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

im adding grunge to the genre because this is a grunge album the songs like the bands old songs so why is this not Grunge? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Feedmyeyes (talk • contribs) 01:50, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Q magazine gave it 4 stars. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.81.209.58 (talk) 11:28, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Why was the section about the album's excessive dynamic range compression deleted? I thought it was legitimate and relevant criticism of the album's sound quality. 98.203.152.242 (talk) 06:04, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

There's actually a list on the Loudness War article of notable albums that have been mastered with extreme amounts of dynamic range compression; I would favor adding this (and other similar albums) to that last rather than having tiny "Loudness War" stubs in random album articles.evildeathmath 16:12, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

grunge is dead and [hopefully] it's never coming back.

this album is basically a heavy metal album in the vain of black sabbath's 1970s stuff with a few modern metal influences — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.32.220.148 (talk) 14:50, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

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Couldn't we just move all this into Reception and split it into Critical and Commercial subsections? Sounds like an easy fix to me. dannymusiceditor ^oops 22:54, 7 January 2021 (UTC)