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Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Péter Eckstein-Kovács (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Biruitorul (talk · contribs)
• Gyalu22 (talk · contribs)
• Aristeus01 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

In the lead section of the article, do we mention the subject’s ethnicity, or do we wait until the first words of the body (one paragraph later) to do that?

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:Péter Eckstein-Kovács

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Please offer an opinion in line with the guideline.

The MOS:ETHNICITY guideline (second example description) instructs the mentioning of the person's ethnicity in the second sentence of the lead. Biruitorul and Aristeus01 reverted the change and hold that Eckstein-Kovács's ethnicity should be completely omitted from the lead despite he, for most of his career was part of an exclusively Hungarian party in Romania that aims to represent the minority's interests. They refused to react to my reason for changing during the whole talk page discussion. Gyalu22 (talk) 15:02, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think the conversation on the talk page says it all. Although consensus was reached, gyalu22 continues to disagree. Another opinion would be more than welcomed.--Aristeus01 (talk) 18:34, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Volunteer Note - The filing editor has not notified the other editors on their talk pages. Robert McClenon (talk) 13:20, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Biruitorul ^Talk 14:33, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Volunteer Question - Why is there a hatnote about his personal name? That is, why is it necessary to distinguish the native form of his name from Western name order? Robert McClenon (talk) 01:29, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think this is fairly standard practice for biographies of (ethnic) Hungarian people, all the way up to Viktor Orbán or Franz Liszt. — Biruitorul ^Talk 04:46, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am ready to act as the moderator. The editors should read the ground rules and indicate whether they want moderated discussion. Is the only question whether his ethnicity should be mentioned in the lede sentence? The hatnote states that the native form of his name is family name followed by given name, which is Hungarian usage. Is that in itself a reason why his ethnicity should be mentioned? Robert McClenon (talk) 15:06, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Robert McClenon and thank you for joining.

I agree with moderated discussion.

The disagreement is only centred around the lead section. To my understanding the reason invoked for mentioning the ethnicity does not relate to name order but to the relevance of his ethnicity in his political career, plainly speaking being Hungarian he joined UDMR, a political party for Hungarian minority. My reasoning is that the reason for joining a political party or another is not a notable achievement for Wikipedia. --Aristeus01 (talk) 16:12, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I too agree with moderation; thank you for your willingness to help. The dispute does not have to do with the hatnote. Rather, it revolves around whether the lead section (above “Biography”) should mention his ethnicity. Aristeus01 and I argue that the answer is no. This view is grounded in MOS:ETHNICITY and in the fact that all similar articles — biographies of politicians who belong to ethnic-minority parties — follow the same principle: mention citizenship and party in the lead, ethnicity in the body. — Biruitorul ^Talk 17:19, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I expressed doubts about the correctness of taking this dispute to noticeboard reading the informal, but if Robert McClenon doesn't hesitate starting the dispute resolution, I only thank his help in it.

Following the guideline cited above by Biruitorul, it's needless to add the ethnicity of the person if it isn't relevant to his career, so this isn't only about that. In the case of Eckstein-Kovács, ethnicity does define importance. He spent most of his political career as a prominent member of an exclusively Hungarian party in Romania that aims to represent the minority's interests. The guideline puts its directions regarding this situation as "the second example is someone who emigrated as a child and continued to identify as a citizen of their adopted country (...) we do not add ethnicity ("Jewish-American") or country of birth ("Russian-born American"). These details can be introduced in the second sentence if they are of defining importance." Gyalu22 (talk) 14:41, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

So in the case of Péter Eckstein-Kovács ethnicity is of defining importance for joining city council, or for becoming a deputy? Aristeus01 (talk) 18:53, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I repeat than: he spent most of his political career as a prominent member of an exclusively Hungarian party in Romania that aims to represent the minority's interests.

Are we allowed to do these side-discourses here? It was the talk page where you should've looked to engage in a non-moderated argument. Gyalu22 (talk) 19:56, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

”Exclusively Hungarian” is factually incorrect; they’ve had ethnic Romanian candidates in the past. — Biruitorul ^Talk 04:47, 28 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please read the rules again. Back-and-forth discussion should be in the space reserved for the purpose. Is the only issue whether to list his ethnicity (Hungarian) in the lede paragraph? Two reasons have been mentioned why his ethnicity is significant, the first being his involvement in a political party for the Hungarian minority in Romania, and the second being that the native form of his name, which is noted in the hatnote, is a Hungarian name. What are the reasons for not identifying his ethnicity "up front"? Are there any other issues? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:00, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• To begin with, the hatnote is not controversial. The article’s subject is ethnic Hungarian (nobody disputes that), and it’s normal to place it there.
• Moving on: MOS:ETHNICITY states that “in most modern-day cases”, we put citizenship in the lead, and that ethnicity “should generally not be in the lead”. Yes, exceptions can be made, but there really isn’t a compelling case here. We mention his party in the lead (complete with the word “Hungarian” in it, so it would sort of be overkill to hammer that theme twice in the same sentence), we mention his ethnicity right off the bat in the body of the article.
• Is his ethnicity relevant to his notability? To some extent that’s subjective, but I think not, simply because his notability rests on the fact that he was a member of parliament. Yes, he happened to be elected for a largely ethnic Hungarian party, but he’s notable because he was in parliament, not because he’s ethnically Hungarian. — Biruitorul ^Talk 20:57, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Péter Eckstein-Kovács notability comes mostly from his work, as a politician, around minority rights. While not entirely said in the article, he spoke and acted against antisemitism, discrimination of Rroma (Romani) people, and the scarcity of rights for LGBT community. He also resigned from UDMR in 2018 citing discontent with the conservative line followed by the party. Hence, his notability is for defending human rights and minority rights in general, and not specifically Hungarian minority rights, even less so Hungarian minority political representation in Romania (since he resigned from the party). Since notability is the root for MOS:Ethnicity and his activity is beyond Hungarian minority rights, acting (officially and unofficially) on behalf of Romania, his ethnicity expressly added in the lead does not ”link”.--Aristeus01 (talk) 11:40, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It appears that the only issue is the lede sentence. If there are any other issues, please identify them. I am asking each editor to propose what they think should be the lede sentence. Just propose the lede sentence. If you want to state why that is your preference, you may do so in the space for back-and-forth discussion. After that, I will ask each editor whether they will accept any of the other proposed lede sentences. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:01, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Péter Eckstein-Kovács (born July 5, 1956) is a Romanian lawyer and a liberal politician. Between February 1999-November 2000 he was the Minister of Minority Affairs in Romania, and between January 2009 and September 2011 he was the President's Advisor on Minority Affairs, a position he resigned from in disagreement with the presidential stand on Roșia Montană Project.

He was a member of the Romanian Chamber of Deputies for Cluj County from 1990 to 1992, a member of the Cluj-Napoca city council from 1992 to 1996, and, as a member of the Romanian Senate between 2004-2008, he was the chairman of its Committee on Legal, Disciplinary, Immune, Justifying and European Affairs.

A former member of the Democratic Alliance of Hungarians in Romania (UDMR), he resigned in 2018 citing disagreement with the party's policy on legal issues. --Aristeus01 (talk) 10:36, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Péter Eckstein-Kovács (born July 5, 1956) is a Romanian lawyer and politician. Of Hungarian ethnicity, he was formerly a member of the Democratic Alliance of Hungarians in Romania (UDMR). He was also a member of the Romanian Chamber of Deputies for Cluj County from 1990 to 1992 and a member of the Cluj-Napoca city council from 1992 to 1996. That year, he was elected to the Romanian Senate, where he served until 2008, except for a stint as Minister-Delegate for National Minorities in the Radu Vasile cabinet (1999) and a break until he was elected again in November 2000.

He and his wife have three children.<ref>Gyalu22 (talk) 13:16, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There have been two draft versions of the lede paragraph, by User:Aristeus01 and by User:Gyalu22. I am now asking each editor to state whether they can agree to each of three versions of the lede, the two that have been drafted here, and the existing version. At this point, it is not necessary to say why you will or will not accept a version. However, if you are willing to accept a lede article with minor changes, please describe the minor changes (which will be another version). Robert McClenon (talk) 14:30, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the lede as it is currently in the article, with no modifications. The version I suggested is for future conversations, I think--Aristeus01 (talk) 19:27, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I stick to my original proposal and I don't understand why Aristeus01 doesn't accept it. We discussed the issue at length and he got the answers he wanted. I don't see any reason for obstructing the change. Gyalu22 (talk) 13:23, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It appears that we have an impasse as to whether to mention his Hungarian ethnicity in the lede of the article. I will ask if anyone can propose a compromise, but I am not optimistic, because it seems to be a yes-no question. An otherwise uninvolved editor has noted that both the Romanian Wikipedia and the Hungarian Wikipedia refer to his Hungarian ethnicity in their ledes. In the English Wikipedia, we are not required to follow the usage of other Wikipedias, but should consider their usages. Unless someone has some other idea or proposal, I will develop a Request for Comments and post it. Are there any other questions, or any compromise suggestions? Robert McClenon (talk) 00:21, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have an idea. It looks like to me that in the back-and-forth discussion we discussed all factors to conclude this dispute. However, if Robert McClenon thinks a RfC creator can come up with some new, I don't reject getting presented with them. Gyalu22 (talk) 10:40, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps RfC would be best, I am still unconvinced the ethnicity is relevant to the notability or that it follows English Wikipedia rules.--Aristeus01 (talk) 21:21, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The draft RFC is at Talk:Péter Eckstein-Kovács/RFC. Unless there are any substantive objections or issues in the next 24 hours, I will move it to the talk page and activate it by taking out the nowiki thingies. The RFC will then run for 30 days. Are there any issues in the meantime? Robert McClenon (talk) 01:03, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hopefully the process won't conclude with the two Romanian users vetoing any change while continuing to refuse discussion. Gyalu22 (talk) 15:38, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

At the moment, I don't wish to add anything to the above section because I already told my reasons. Instead, I would answer the doubts raised there. So MOS:ETHNICTY says this, quoted (though only partly) by Biruitorul too: "Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability." First, I admit that my statement that the UDMR is an "exclusively Hungarian party" is factually incorrect, Biruitorul proved that they did propose Romanian representatives in counties outside Transylvania in the past. Still, nearly all of its members are Hungarians and the party's declared objective is to validate the interests of Hungarians. Eckstein-Kovács was a prominent member of this party for most of his political career, running for president in 2011 and finishing second in the election. For me, it is clear that his ethnicity is key to his career. (He wouldn't have been in the parliament from a Hungarian party without him being Hungarian.) Yes, the lead already mentions that he was formerly a member of the UDMR, but as I said on the talk page, the lead should provide concrete information about the person, not clues. According to the related guideline, his ethnicity should be mentioned and this doesn't change on it.

I didn't find anything that verifies Aristeus01's claims, but even if we assume that they are completely true, his conclusion is still incorrect. Just because Aristeus01 doesn't mention Eckstein-Kovács's actions in defending Hungarian minority rights, that doesn't mean that there weren't far more instances for that than for he defending other minority's rights. Defending the rights of other minorities is in connection with defending the rights of one specific minority anyways. Gyalu22 (talk) 13:35, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The information about defending minority rights is partly included in the article. If other acts, specifically in favour of Hungarian minority, made him notable I think we should mention them. From my understanding he was a founding member of UDMR, and he came second in the elections for party presidency in 2011. Other than that I could not find anything notable in relation to Hungarian minority rights.

If however we find his ethnicity worth mentioning I insist we say "of Hungarian and Jewish descent" since his father was half-Jewish and provides context. Please see here. Aristeus01 (talk) 16:29, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's not easy to find actions taken by him alone and not by the party. I read some specific actions, like advocating for the increased funding of Hungarian-language schools like the Sapientia University.

I read the article you linked and I have to rely on its content but I would note that it's visibly very subjective. I would also note - regarding his descent - that in Jewish traditions, ethnicity originates from the mother and religion is very important. His father wasn't religious. My points I explained support mentioning his Hungarian ethnicity and don't give any reason for mentioning that he has some Jewish ancestry. Gyalu22 (talk) 18:25, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Gyalu22 Should we really leave out the part with him being advisor to the President? To me it seems like it's his most important part of his career(so far). Aristeus01 (talk) 17:40, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think "President's Advisor on Minority Affairs" is not the name of the office in the Romanian government. I guess it's the same as Presidential Adviser (from the) Department of Culture, Religion and National Minorities.[1] But I also think it's notable. I just didn't make a big change in my proposal because this conversation is about the ethnicity thing. No one raised a problem about the layout of the introduction.

Nevertheless I don't support chopping the first paragraph to three like that and relocating his role in the UDMR which is very important. The part fitting in the navigation popup should contain the most important information with no precise dates or explanations. Those can be discussed later in the lead or in the article's main body. Gyalu22 (talk) 18:33, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Aristeus01, you just don't like it? You've received answers to all your doubts. Please tell me what is your problem.Gyalu22 (talk) 14:23, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't speak on my behalf. I never said I like it or not.

"It's not easy to find actions taken by him alone and not by the party." is not a convincing answer and there is no satisfactory answer to why we should mention his Hungarian ethnicity but leave out Jewish ancestry which is easier supported for notability by his actions. And again there is no reason why his ethnicity has to be in the lede, since it is already implied by his former political affiliation and stated in the first line of the biography. For example, even without MOS:Ethnicity we do not describe Rishi Sunak as "Sunak was born in Southampton to parents of Indian descent who immigrated to Britain from East Africa in the 1960s. He is of Indian ethnicity" The fact is already understandable from the first phrase. Aristeus01 (talk) 15:29, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's needless to repeat things I already reacted to. That way I also have to repeat.

Firstly, an introduction is supposed to provide quick and concrete information to the reader, not clues. The statement that he was a member of the UDMR doesn't equal that he is a Hungarian.

Secondly, however, that he was a member of it for most of his political career does make his ethnicity relevant. It is a Hungarian political party that did a lot of things to improve the status of this specific minority. (See Democratic Alliance of Hungarians in Romania#Achievements.) As a prominent politician there, he is also accountable for these achievements.

Thirdly, as I see MOS:ETHNICITY's instruction can't be interpreted differently. We base articles on these guidelines and policies and not on other articles, especially not on ones that are not GAs, in fact ECPs because of policy violations. Plus Rishi Sunak was never part of a Punjabi ethnic party. I don't even want such a detailed statement about his descent, only three words.

Lastly, regarding his 1/4 Jewish background, I paste here what I said: I read the article you linked and I have to rely on its content but I would note that it's visibly very subjective. I would also note - regarding his descent - that in Jewish traditions, ethnicity originates from the mother and religion is very important. His father wasn't religious. My points I explained support mentioning his Hungarian ethnicity and don't give any reason for mentioning that he has some Jewish ancestry. Gyalu22 (talk) 16:30, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I do not have a dog in this fight; I just translate things. I thought to mention for the moderator's benefit that this gentleman's ethnicity is mentioned in the first sentence both on his Romanian Wikipedia page and Hungarian Wikipedia page. I don't know if this helps you or if it's appropriate to put this info here or on your talk page, Robert McClenon. ♦ WikiUser70176 ♦^{(My talk page)} 13:07, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Purdue University Global (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• JA1776 (talk · contribs)
• Ushistorygeek (talk · contribs)
• M.boli (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

I believe the lead in this article includes information that is inaccurate. I also believe it gives disproportionate attention to parts of the article than would be helpful to readers. I have been working to address this for about a month through the talk page, compromise and incremental editing but one particular editor has continued to revert my edits. (In full disclosure, we probably got off on the wrong foot because I engaged in some of the same behaviors initially). Specifically, the article claims that 12.5% of Purdue Global's revenue goes to Kaplan. I have shown through citations that that only occurs in certain financial situations. I also think this is a minor point that doesn't belong in the second sentence. Moreover, Purdue Global has existed for five years and is a significantly different school than when it was a for-profit university called Kaplan. It now is a public university managed by Purdue University. That history deserves to be in the intro, but at some point it should drop lower in the lead than the first sentence. Other editors have agreed with me but the change keeps getting reverted. This matters because some people who do not like online university, have an impartial view and want to try to paint it as still being in the control of Kaplan. Both viewpoints should be in the article, but I believe the aggressive protection of the lead may be due to NPOV editing.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Purdue_University_Global#justification_for_the_continued_inclusion_lead_and_facts

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

I would like to get some additional editors involved to provide feedback and who can help us find the right edits to tighten the lead.

• Volunteer Note - The filing party has neither listed the other editors nor notified them. The filing editor should list the other editors and notify them on their talk pages within 24 hours. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:02, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies, This has been corrected. Any advice or assistance in breaking the stalemate is appreciated. Neither of us are expert editors, so some expertise would be appreciated it. JA1776 (talk) 19:32, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have continued to try out different edits in an effort to find consensus but the changes continue to be reverted. I am not an expert editor and stand willing to receive correction if that's warranted but unlike with past disputes I've had on Wikipedia, this particular editor prefers to revert my changes rather than edit them and that makes it impossible to find consensus. If this is a case worthy of your time, I would appreciate the guidance and assistance finding a resolution. JA1776 (talk) 18:58, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I will try to mediate this dispute if User:Ushistorygeek agrees to moderated discussion. Please read the usual rules. Do not edit the article in question while moderated discussion is in progress.

However, User:Ushistorygeek has been notified of this filing, and has not replied, and has again reverted the edits by User:JA1776. I also note that another editor has joined the discussion at the article talk page, Talk:Purdue University Global. I am adding them to the list of editors and will notify them.

Participation at DRN is voluntary. If Ushistorygeek does not respond, moderated discussion will be impossible. What the next steps are for JA1776 are described in the discussion failure essay, but maybe further discussion at the article talk page might be useful. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:50, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Robert McClenon. Thank you for tagging me the in comment below and leaving a comment on my talk page about this discussion. I was unaware of this discussion forum until now and I welcome the opportunity to have a third party assist in moving us forward with a resolution. Ushistorygeek (talk) 00:58, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am new to this process so apologies if I get something wrong but I believe I am supposed to get things started here:

First, the statement that "Graham Holdings is entitled to receive 12.5% of Purdue Global's operating revenue" conflicts with the wording in the rest of the article and the citations I have offered such as this one. I propose that instead, we keep it consistent with how it's described in the body of the article such as "may receive 12.5% of Purdue Global's operating revenue if certain financial benchmarks are met." The wording matters because to my knowledge, the conditions to pay the full 12.5% have never occurred.

Second, I do not believe the current intro gives readers an adequate synopsis of what Purdue Global is today and how it's governed by Purdue. The lede summarizes the history of its creation and relationship with Kaplan but outside one or two sentences at most, it fails to go beyond that. I suggest a paragraph summarizing what Purdue Global is today and a paragraph summarizing its creation and relationship to Kaplan.

Third, all this matters because there are critics of online education who want to give readers the impression that Purdue Global is nothing more than Kaplan and the story of its start. I don't object to including that viewpoint, but balance requires space for a description of what the school looks like today and for the viewpoint of those who believe Purdue has transformed the school into an effective and mainstream, public adult-education university.

I have tried to make these corrections through many attempts but feel like they have mostly been reverted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JA1776 (talk • contribs) 13:29, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I will try to mediate this dispute. Please read the usual rules again. Do not edit the article in question while moderated discussion is in progress. Be civil and concise. Comment on content, not contributors.

I am asking each editor to state, briefly, what parts of the article they think that there is a content dispute about. That is, what paragraphs do you want changed, or what paragraphs do you want left the same that the other editor wants changed? After we determine what parts of the article are being disputed, then we can discuss what the reasons are for the dispute. If there are any questions, please ask them at this time. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:06, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Generally, I am not looking to delete anything, just to to reorder and expand.

I propose that the first paragraph briefly and succinctly introduce the school as being a part of the Purdue University System and that it was created by the acquisition of Kaplan University in 2018. For clarity, accuracy and balance, I would move the 12.5% sentence and one of the two references to Kaplan to another paragraph.

I would put the current final sentence next and expand it to make it the second paragraph. It should describe today's Purdue Global: who leads it and the types of students it serves and the types of programs it offers. This would include a reference to its law school, which is highly unique as the oldest online law school in the country. Readers should know Purdue Global is more than its creation story.

The current second and third paragraphs should come next which would make them the third and fourth paragraphs. The language would describe the partnership with Kaplan, including the 12.5% from the current first paragraph but with the added detail and citation that the 12.5% isn't a guarantee. Although I think the paragraph about the law that allowed Purdue Global to be created would be better in the history section, I am willing to compromise and keep that as the final paragraph. Editing to tag User:Ushistorygeek JA1776 (talk) 14:56, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

One editor has proposed to rework the article. The other editor, while making a very brief statement, has not replied.

At this point I will temporarily waive the rule against editing the article, and advise the filing editor to make the changes that they have proposed. If the other editor does not disagree, I will close the case. If the other editor disagrees, we will resume discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:49, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Salvatore Babones (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Mixmon (talk · contribs)
• TrangaBellam (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The dispute is about certain lines on the page which are possibly violating Wikipedia guidelines and policies and are not properly sourced. I made some edits tomorrow which were reverted by TrangaBellam. The first issue is regarding an unsourced line regarding "conservative media". This is not mentioned in any of the cited sources and is clearly WP:OR - Have the editors who wrote this analyzed all of the reviews and concluded that "favorable reviews" (according to them) are only present in "conservative media" (Editors have decided political leanings)? The second is about an American political incident, the cited source is this. This article is about an interview with Tony Abbott about India so ideally it should be mentioned in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvatore_Babones#India, not in the United States section. Please note that I am not familiar with American politics so there might be things here I'm ignorant about but this dispute is only about the application of relevant policies and guidelines.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:Salvatore_Babones#recent_revert

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

A neutral and experienced editor can provide opinions about the application of relevant policies and examine whether those lines are violating the policies or not.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Vurg (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• RoyalHeritageAlb (talk · contribs)
• Khirurg (talk · contribs)
• Alexikoua (talk · contribs)
• AlexBachmann (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

One user i adding personal information about an individual deeds and achievments into an article about a region. The other (me) is commenting that only the information about the region should be in the article about the region not personal information about the individual doings. Is a dispute which at the moment 4 different users have commented so after posting it at Wikipedia:Third opinion an admin redirected us here.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:Vurg#Lefter Talo, Talk:Vurg#Lefter_Talo

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

We are discussing what belongs and doesnt belong to an article about a region. So since different users claim different opinions we need an experienced and neutral user to show us what belongs to resolve this dispute.

Lefter Talo was an ethnic Greek individual born in the Vurg region of Albania who was active in the communist resistance during WW2 and his place of birth is now named after him. Sources describing this have been added in the article. The only reason there even is a dispute is because RoyalHeritageAlbania is extremely bothered by the mention of Talo's Greek ethnicity, and really really doesn't want it in the article. He won't say so openly, but reading between the lines in this talkpage thread [2] and looking at his edit summaries [3], it's pretty clear what he means when he says Informations about Lefter Talo dont belong here. This despite the fact that the sources in the articles mention his ethnicity (e.g. Kofos 1973). Khirurg (talk) 20:38, 19 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I wanted to bring up a concern regarding the content in this Wikipedia article about the region where this notable person was born. I noticed that some editors have added information about the person's personal information & achievements and deeds to this article. However, I believe that this information should be included in the person's own personal article, rather than in the article about the region. While it is important to acknowledge the person's connection to the region, it is not necessary to include every detail of their personal life in the article. Doing so could detract from the main focus of the article, which is the region itself. Additionally, the personal achievements and deeds of the person are more appropriate for their own personal article, where they can be more thoroughly and accurately discussed. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 20:47, 19 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I am writing to report an issue with the Vurg. I noticed that information about a notable person's (Lefter Talo) personal achievements and background ethnicity has been included in an article about the region where he was born. I believe that this information should not be included in that article and should be mentioned to the resistance leader's personal article instead.

Furthermore, EVEN IF, some information about the individual could be included, I think that there are more important factors than details about his early life just as the ethnic background. However,i think these factors as well should remain on the individual's respective article, not on the region's article. A reader interested about Lefter Talo the individual should read about him on his respective article and only informations directly linked to the region should be in the article. The resistance leader should have his own page and be mentioned as a notable person in the region. But informations ABOUT him i dont think that belongs here. Thank you! RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 15:44, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am ready to mediate this dispute. Please read the ground rules and agree that you will follow the rules. This is a contentious topic because it involves nationalities in Eastern Europe. Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion. Address your comments to the moderator and the community. Be civil and concise.

It appears that one matter of dispute is whether to include material about a particular guerilla leader. Is that correct? Are there any other issues? Robert McClenon (talk) 15:04, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It appears that the issue is how much the Vurg article should say about Lefter Talo. The argument for minimizing what is said about him is that anything other than a passing mention of him is off topic. It appears that there is an article about a village that is named for him, but that there isn't a biographical article about Lefter Talo, the guerilla. I am asking each editor to state, concisely, their opinion on what the Vurg article should say, and their opinion about what should be said about Lefter Talo, and in what article it should be said. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:16, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

My proposal is that we should only mention him as a notable figure (the name) then to create an article about Lefter Talo the individual (i have also proposed to move the Village's article [Lefter Talo] into "Lefter Talo (Village)" on the tp here [4] to avoid confusion but no other editor has replied). Then to link that specific article to the Vurg page and anyone who is interested to read about his personal information such as the background and deeds in this case can simply click there. (I am absolutely not trying to erase the well known infomation just like the ethnic background which the other user claims that i am trying to do.) RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 00:09, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Even if there was a separate article for the actual Lefter Talo person, there is still not a valid reason from hiding his ethnicity from readers of the vurg article, who might not read the Lefter Talo article. There is no question that hiding this information is the other party's main goal [5] [6]. All this time wasted, walls and and walls of text (and who knows how much more), just for that. Khirurg (talk) 01:47, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You mention all this "time wasted" but you forget that the user Alexikoua was the one who added these informations Special:MobileDiff/1149363047 and while i was saying to refer to the talk page for discussing this matter Special:MobileDiff/1149375870 we both were on our 3 revert. So you stepped in to do the revert for Alexikoua probably even to bait me reverting you again and getting blocked. So if you were ready to "win" an argument based on the number of reverts and "allies" i am ready to take whatever official rules/steps wikipedia requires to solve this dispute. So stop mentioning this "time wasted". And dont make this personal. I dont have a problem for an albanian "hero of the people" to have greek ethnic background. There are hundreds of Greek National Heroes who have Albanian/Arvanitic Background. So lets stay serious and discuss your arguments as per "Why it should/n't be here" do not discuss my intentions since we are supposed to "Comment on content, not contributors". Any detail of the individual should be part of his personal article not at Vurg. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 09:08, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss edits, not editors. Is there any issue about the Vurg article other than what it should say about Lefter Talo? If he is biographically notable, we should have a biographical article about him. If he is not notable, why should we mention him in the article? Will each editor please state, briefly, what information they think should be in the Vurg article about Lefter Talo, and why there should or should not be an article on Lefter Talo? Robert McClenon (talk) 16:45, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It appears that there is an article on the village named Lefter Talo. Naming a village for him seems to be evidence of his biographical notability. If two articles, for the man and the village, are in order, they can be disambiguated, with hatnotes to each other. Please comment. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:50, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think Lefter Talo is notable enough to have its own respective article. And should be mentioned as a notable person from the area. But informations ABOUT him either important like deeds or achievements either personal details just like the background and mother language religion etc should NOT be mentioned in the Vurg article but on the personal article which will be created about him. Lets keep Vurg only about the region. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 19:03, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Is there agreement that Lefter Talo, a World War Two Resistance leader, is biographically notable and should be the subject of a biographical article? If so, is there agreement that the article on the region should only have a passing mention, linked to the biography? Robert McClenon (talk) 01:07, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Even if there is a separate article for the individual, I don't see why cirtually nothing about him should be mentioned in the region he was from. It just seems a very strange and strict requirement. Khirurg (talk) 02:56, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Even if there would be anything to mention about the individual, would be the exact role that made the individual notable. Surely way more important than background information such as mother language ethnicity or religion. But still. Everything about him should be mentioned in his respective article not at Vurg. He was well known enough to have the name mentioned as a notable person but informations ABOUT him dont belong to an article about the region where he was born. Its like writing personal informations about Eminem on the Missouri article. This isnt even the article about Lefter Talo the village (which still should be limited to informations about the village itself not the namesake). Its an article about the whole region. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 00:17, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I will ask the question again, because I think that it has been answered, but am not entirely sure. Is there agreement that we should have an article on Lefter Talo, the resistance leader? The article about the village should be disambiguated so that its name will be about the village. The reason why we should only mention the resistance leader in passing in the Vurg article is that his life is off topic with respect to the region, and would make the article a coatrack.

Are there any other issues? Robert McClenon (talk) 14:24, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sure! That was my initial proposal and i agree! We should create an article about the leader. The villages name should be moved. And his personal information doesnt belong to Vurg article since its offtopic. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 18:16, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We seem to have agreement that there should be an article on the person, Lefter Talo. If so, I will put this case on hold while the article about the person is being written. Are there any other issues? Robert McClenon (talk) 14:19, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sure! I already moved the village article and will do the rest very soon. Thank you! RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 21:54, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The creation of the article for Lefter Talo the individual does not in any way mean that all information about him should be wiped from other articles in the encyclopedia. I absolutely do not agree with that. Khirurg (talk) 01:09, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Theanine (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Zefr (talk · contribs)
• Reflecktor (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

User Reflecktor refuses to apply the only review concerning the effect of supplemental theanine on attention and other cognitive effects, defending use of primary studies (with low subject numbers) published 11-15 years ago, and ignoring WP:MEDASSESS. At Talk:Theanine, Reflecktor has not addressed the deficiencies of the primary studies, some of which had subject numbers as low as 5.

Since 30 April, Reflecktor has reverted constructive changes in the article 7 times without engaging in talk page discussion that addresses the deficiencies of the original primary sources. Reflecktor uses edit-warring rather thn dispute resolution which was recommended. I have posted WikiProject talk page discussions (no feedback yet) at Physiology, Pharmacology, and Dietary Supplements.

Reflecktor is defending weak, outdated primary research over the most recently published 2014 systematic review specific to the topics of concern. Reflecktor claims on the theanine talk page that there is no WP:MEDASSESS, which clearly states the heirarchy for choosing reliable sources on physiological/medical content, as applies for this dispute, is a systematic review.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk discussion specifically on the problems of small-study primary sources and preferred use of a relevant systematic review as advised by WP:SCIASSESS or WP:MEDASSESS (the content is physiological in nature, so WP:MEDRS applies).

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

The primary studies in question for the content Reflecktor wishes to use are too weak to support the content, and are 11-15 years out of date. A 2014 systematic review including the prior primary research is available as a source, and a statement about its findings was provided in the article here and on the talk page here. Rather than using the review to revise the content, Reflecktor has repeatedly edit-warred to defend the primary research, with no explanations offered on the talk page and no attempts at dispute resolution.

Essentially what has happened was Zefr has been edit warring to remove content he dislikes from the article for about a week. He's been very reticent to engage on the talk page and when he has he's shown no intent or evidence of intent to collaborate or compromise, instead he's serial reverting for his preferred version without consensus for his recent changes.

As I explained on the talk page here Zefr has completely misrepresented the study review he cited. So not only is he being disruptive but he's inserting content not supported by the very source he cites. The reliable peer-reviewed journals that are used to source the longstanding version of the article are from very reliable journals, are plentiful in number, and are very recent. There's no reason they can't be reported in the article. Reflecktor (talk) 19:40, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This user is purposefully misrepresenting the facts. Reviewers will see that I started the talk page discussion challenging weak, outdated, primary sources, and have detailed several objections to using primary studies rather than this systematic review. Rather than being collaborative, answering objections to the primary source challenges, and revising from the review, Reflecktor has a knee-jerk reaction to revert with a claim of "disruptive editing" or edit-warring. Reflecktor has made no attempts on noticeboards or other means of dispute resolution. For the record, the primary sources Reflecktor prefers are 11-15 years out of date, and are replaced now by a 9 year old review. Zefr (talk) 21:17, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes you started the talk page discussion but then you abandoned it for 6 days while refusing to use it, instead opting to disruptively edit without any regard for WP:CONSENSUS. For the record I've attempted to address some of your concerns by even removing sources you had a problem with as seen here.

It's also not at all clear to me why 11 years is 'outdated' but 9 years is not, that's a very arbitrary line to draw. Reflecktor (talk) 21:58, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please show us your attempts to establish consensus on the talk page or collaborate on the only review available that summarizes the state of science on the topic? The talk discussion was opened on 30 April, and this is 10 days later, when I have detailed 6 entries concerning the issues with your text and sources. Yes, 9 years is out of date, but it is the most recent source and the only review.

You can end this dispute now by using the review to rewrite one sentence that summarizes its main findings on theanine. Zefr (talk) 22:48, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This user should remove less content less often. I don't have time to learn everything on Theanine, however I have verified some of the sources in this edit are RS.

This is a common problem. SECONDARY sources are not PRIMARY. Removing SECONDARYs based upon the objection that they are PRIMARY is strange. I think that is obvious.

There are much worse problems on Wikipedia but I do find this irritating. Invasive Spices (talk) 19:34, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This comment is unclear. Who is the user that "should remove content less often"? The purpose in this dispute is to source a systematic review as the secondary source rather than 7 primary studies. Small pilot or even randomized controlled trials with small subject numbers - as is each of the disputed sources (all having n < 50) discussed on the theanine talk page - are primary research, shown in the left pyramid of WP:MEDASSESS as inadequate unfiltered sources for medical content. Primary sources supporting vague content that is WP:UNDUE should be challenged (better if removed) until a strong encyclopedic source is provided. Zefr (talk) 20:58, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please read the usual ground rules. Please pay particular attention at this time to the rule that there is to be no back-and-forth discussion, because that is just going back and forth more. Address your comments to the moderator (me) as the representative of the community. Do User:Zefr and User:Reflecktor agree to moderated discussion, and to accept the rules? Comment on content, not contributors.

Our objective is to improve the encyclopedia. So each editor should, in addition to agreeing to the rules, state briefly what you want to change in the article, or what you want left the same that the other editor wants to change. Focus your comments on article content. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:42, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Robert - I agree. I made this edit using the only review on the supplemental cognitive effects of theanine (by itself is of interest for the Wikipedia article): A 2014 review of human studies found that combined caffeine and L-theanine improved alertness and attention in the first 2 hours after ingestion, but when 250  mg of theanine was administered by itself, no effect on alertness was found. Reflecktor reverted that edit and has not tried to improve the content using the review.

Quoting from the review Discussion: "250 mg of L-theanine was administered in isolation, no treatment effect on alertness was reported." Also quoting: "Further data containing varying doses of L-theanine administered in isolation would be necessary to more accurately determine the differential effect of L-theanine on alertness." Among all the Discussion where theanine in isolation was evaluated, there was mention of "a moderate effect on contentment", but no other no firm conclusions to state for the general encyclopedia user. I'm open to any other editor's interpretation of that review and contribution of a clear summary statement. Zefr (talk) 01:36, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I agree to the rules. I want to keep the original version of the article, specifically this part 'The combination of theanine and caffeine has been shown to promote faster simple reaction time, task switching, sustained attention, faster numeric working memory reaction time and improved sentence verification accuracy' which is sourced by multiple peer-reviewed scholarly journals. In addition to this I oppose the introduction of Zefr's content above as it misrepresents the source cited. Reflecktor (talk) 06:54, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Rock in Rio (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Mortyman (talk · contribs)
• JimboB (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

I have sadly been in dispute with user JimboB for several years now regarding this issue and JimboB seems to be hell bent on not accepting any sources that disagrees with his views. The commentary has become unfriendly and totally unacceptable.

In 1991 A-ha played for a record crowd of 198.000 people at Rock in Rio festival. This is a well known and accepted fact around the world, except perhaps in the US, where A-ha has not been much in media since the mid 80s. I have over several years now provided several links to sources that substantiate this, including the official Rock in Rio site. However JimboB has never accepted this and keeps on reverting the info, claiming that the sources are not good enough, even thoguh it's the official Rock in Rio website and also the biggest newspaper/Tv channel in Brazil, namely Globo Brazil.

JimboB has provided newspaper clippings that mention a very different number from the day, however this is no doubt info that is from the start of the concert / day.

JimboB has had some rather unplasent comments that I find problematic, such as: "Stop being childish. Journalistic sources will always take precedence over promotional fluff, especially promotional fluff misguided by years of preposterous inflated numbers being pushed by fans like you. I will always delete your numbers because they are FALSE"

Rock in Rio official site mention (see year 1991 bottom of page) https://rockinrio.com/rio/pt-br/historia/

https://g1.globo.com/jornaldaglobo/0,,MUL1057248-16021,00-AHA+SE+APRESENTAM+EM+SP+E+NO+RIO.html

https://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g245/embopics/img072.jpg (Scan of Guinnes Book world of records)

https://g1.globo.com/musica/rock-in-rio/2015/noticia/2015/09/-ha-em-1991-e-eleito-momento-mais-marcante-de-30-anos-do-rock-rio.html (Article from Rock in rio 2015 where A-ha's record in 1991 is mentioned)

Recently Jimbo B has reverted the number 198.000 to 100.000 to now no number at all and removed all my sources from article.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Rock_in_Rio

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

I believe that the official Rock in Rio site and their mention of A-ha should be accepted as proof of the 198.000 number. As I have tried to convey to Jimbo B, Why would the official Rock in Rio website credit A-ha with the 198.000,a Norwegian band of all things and not a local band or lets say Paul McCartney or Guns N'Roses, if it was not true?