Talk:Gaza genocide

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: This is currently running 2 to 1 against, with most citing procedural issues so in the interest of not wasting everyone's time more than it has already been wasted, I'm closing this. While there is a consensus against a moratorium, respondents there noted that discussions that didn't bring anything new to the table should be handled through existing processes. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:52, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gaza genocide → Accusations of Gazan genocide in the Israel–Hamas war – Let me preface this by saying that, in my mind, there is little doubt that Israel is committing a genocide. I mention this not because my non-expert opinion should have any sort of weight in this debate, but as an assurance to you that this RM is being done in good faith. After reading the previous discussion, as well as the whole scholarly/expert opinion table on the talk page, I wholeheartedly believe that "Gaza genocide" is a premature title and does more harm than good, risking the erosion of public confidence in Wikipedia for a wide swath of the population. My reasoning :

The scholarly/expert opinion is more polarized that what has been claimed. A lot of the argumentation in favor of the "Gaza genocide" title centers around the fact that, while the mainstream opinion and media may be split on the genocide accusation, a wide majority of scholars and experts consider the massacre a genocide. Before anyone contributes to this discussion, I strongly encourage that you first read the "Scholarly and expert opinions" table that has been compiled on the talk page. It's huge, I read all of it, and I have to say I didn't come out of it with any impression of a consensus. Opinions range widely, from "It is one" to "It could be one" to "It isn't one", and no position is clearly dominant. One thing to take into account is that a lof of these sources, on both sides of the argument, are not actually specialized in the topic of genocide. If we really want to know if there's an academic/expert consensus, a useful exercise could be to improve the table and prioritize genocide/Holocaust scholars and international law experts, as well as separate them based on their stance and their level of confidence in said stance. While I would be happy to be proven wrong, I doubt such an exercise would show a consensus yet.

The title doesn't match the article. When I wrote that this title could erode confidence in the neutrality of Wikipedia, I was referring to this point. Someone who clicks on "Gaza genocide" will immediately be met with multiple clear contradictions, and a general appearance of dishonesty. First, the short description refers to an "alleged genocide", while the hatnote informs the reader that "[t]his article is about genocide accusations". Then, the first sentence describes accusations of genocide, just like the rest of the article. Some have pointed to other articles, such as Transgender genocide and Black genocide in the United States, as examples of articles titled "genocide" without a consensus/a legal ruling. However, these articles are about terms that are used to characterize systemic oppression and don't refer to a single historical event, like the Holocaust. We should be honest that "Gaza genocide" as a title evokes a historical event, not a characterization of an event. In any case, I think the titling of such an important article as "Gaza genocide" should be based on reasoning rather than on a precedent by two articles with relatively low readership.

Unambiguity is more important than concision, especially in a polarizing article. Until there is an academic/expert consensus on the genocide, this article is about a debate and we don't lose anything by titling it as such, except a bit of concision. Neutrality should be our priority when it comes to a crucial article like this one. As a reminder, readers won't read an article which they perceive as dishonest, and Wikipedia's great potential for de-polarization is then wasted.

The title I'm suggesting, "Accusations of Gazan genocide in the Israel-Hamas war", is the one I think is best. The "in the Israel–Hamas war" goes along with my call for unambiguity, as there have been multiple other accusations of a Gazan genocide in the past. However, I think it would be pertinent to first debate whether or not the article should be titled "Gaza genocide", and, in the case of a negative, adjust the title afterward. WikiFouf (talk) 15:23, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• I think it is worth distilling all possible new names into to two choices. We need to make sure we end up with something representative of consensus. I think Gaza genocide accusations and/or Gaza genocide allegations are the best possible names on the NPOV side, and Gaza genocide as the current name on the contentious POV side. IntrepidContributor (talk) 17:06, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  FYI, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#IntrepidContributor. Levivich (talk) 18:45, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  While I happen to agree with you that the current name is in need of improvement and I do like your suggestions, unless you can find something significant that changed since the endorsed RM closure a weeks ago, I don't how this isn't just a waste of everyone's time. I would recommend a procedural close. Me Da Wikipedian (talk) 20:45, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I don't know why editors keep on insisting on a procedural close when there are more than enough editors here supporting the motion. Shutting down discussion is a hallmark of POV pushing or stonewalling, and neither of those are legitimate means for conducting a a discussion according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. IntrepidContributor (talk) 08:01, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Because this isn’t some game where if you try try again and just get the numbers to turn out then you win. We had a discussion that resulted in consensus. That discussion was reviewed and the finding of consensus endorsed. If there had been no consensus then fine discussion further makes sense. But here, when there was consensus, it is tendentious, making people go through the same shit because some people are upset they didn’t get their way. nableezy - 11:16, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  if you try try again and just get the numbers to turn out then you win This topic area as a whole seems ripe with this ideology (see the 5th banner down here). PhotogenicScientist (talk) 15:35, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  People, especially people who don't edit the articles in question, starting snap-RMs (and RFCs) with no "before" discussion, and doing this multiple times in rapid succession, is a huge problem in this topic area. It's very disruptive, it makes talk pages almost unusable and causes widespread burn out. It's caused a giant mess at the main war page, and we need to figure out a way to not let this disruption continue. I tried to address this here and at AE (unsuccessfully), and when the AE closes I'm planning to bring it up at AN for a community discussion. Levivich (talk) 15:42, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong oppose nothing has changed since the last RM. M.Bitton (talk) 02:55, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong oppose and Bad RFC - Exactly nothing has changed. This is just WP:BATTLEGROUND and relitigation. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 02:58, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong oppose There was an RM closed on 3 July 2024, endorsed on 22 August 2024, nothing new has been presented and this appears as nothing more than disruptive WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Selfstudier (talk) 03:03, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Procedural close/Oppose. Absolutely nothing has changed since the last RM. Given that the last RM closed on 3 July 2024, was endorsed at a move review 22 August 2024 and that there have been three RMs on this article this year, the filling of another RM so soon after the last one was endorsed by a move review is entirely disruptive. Consensus can change, but filing an RM less than a month after the previous one was endorsed by a move review is taking the mickey. TarnishedPath^talk 03:09, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Support move I will note a precedent for repeated move requests despite nothing really changing due to a POV title, 1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight. I support some similar rename per WP:POVTITLE and similar article title Palestinian genocide accusation. First of all, I think it's not at all clear that there's an overwhelming consensus that such a name as the current one is accurate. I find this article by Donna Robinson Divine^[1] useful to understand how the distortion of terminology serves to inflame and imply that a war or policy of extermination is the official policy of Israel when it isn't. This article is a good overview of the legal basics of Hamas' war crimes and why the war is one of self-defense and an attempt to rescue the hostages.^[2] I also think what David Simon has written is relevant; director of the genocide studies program at Yale University, says that Israel has only explicitly said they want to exterminate Hamas, and has not directly stated intent to “destroy a religious, ethnic or racial group.” Ben Kiernan, the director of the Cambodian Genocide Program at Yale University, also agrees.^[3] Fareed Zakaria agrees: determine whether Israel’s government is committing genocide against Palestinians in Gaza. I think the charge is invalid; there is no systematic effort to exterminate Gaza’s population. (If there were, given the vast disparity in power, Israel would surely have killed many more than 23,000 people, though that number is, of course, still staggeringly high. The death toll figure comes from the Hamas-run Health Ministry in Gaza.) Genocide is an incendiary accusation that should not be used loosely ^[4] Habermas, et al: "Despite all the concern for the fate of the Palestinian population, however, the standards of judgement slip completely when genocidal intentions are attributed to Israel's actions."^[5] These distortions fuel misinformation. ^[6] For example, misinterpretation of the ICJ and ICC rulings which did not find a "plausible" genocide.^[7] They will have to show Israeli intent.^[8][9] While the death of any innocent person is a tragedy, the killing of 2% of the Gazan population during a tough urban war isn't equivalent to such historical events like the Armenian genocide or the Holocaust and shouldn't be compared to them, and it's at least argued by some experts such as John Spencer that Israel is not intentionally killing civilians and shows restraint.^[10] I recognize these are unpopular opinions. While I note that the previous close addressed the potential counterfactual aspect of the title, I believe editors should nonetheless find a consensus to rename it. Andre🚐 03:30, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nearly all these sources date back to the early months of the war, when the casualties and damage were, though high, risible compared to the situation from March onwards, where the scale of the devastation multiplied to a level of qualitative difference. Omer Bartov like the early commentators cited here (several with no credentials) was initially sceptical but changed his opinion in August for this reason.Nishidani (talk) 08:52, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A genocide need not reach the level of the Holocaust to be a genocide, and pointing to the arguments of someone a believes a certain threshold of number dead be met to constitute genocide, is not just at odds with any of the frameworks employed by genocide scholars, but is also counter to the UN Convention on the matter. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 09:55, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is a good overview of the legal basics of Hamas' war crimes and why the war is one of self-defense and an attempt to rescue the hostages. where the article is by an IDF colonel who's repertoire of research is all in support of Israel's military actions. Firstly, I would comment that a retaliatory war does not preclude then possibility of genocide in the UN convention. Secondly, I would highlight how this list of bullet points was published 16 October 2023, almost 11 months ago. Thirdly, I would point in counter to A. Dirk Moses' article "Replacing 'Genocide' with 'Permanent Security' via Genealogy" (which was actually published in a peer-reviewed journal by an expert in genocide studies), about how arguments of "security" and "defense" are used and wielded to justify and perpetrate genocide. Moses then expands this greatly in his book "The Problems of Genocide: Permanent Security and the Language of Transgression" (published by Cambridge University Press). Then specifically to Gaza currently, we have the following academic articles which discuss the argument of a "defensive war" as justification why this does not constitute genocide, and why such an argument doesn't work:

• ""We are Fighting Nazis": Genocidal Fashionings of Gaza(ns) After 7 October" by Zoé Samudzi
• "A World Without Civilians" by Elyse Semerdjian
• "Expert Commentary, the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict, and the Question of Genocide: Prosemitic Bias within a Scholarly Community?" by Omar Shahabudin McDoom
• "A Threshold Crossed: On Genocidal Intent and the Duty to Prevent Genocide in Palestine" by Nimer Sultany
• "Genocide and Resistance in Palestine under Law's Shadow" by Maryam Jamshidi

All of these being full articles, published in the Journal of Genocide Research, and having been much more recently published than Baruch's list of bullet points. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 10:27, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Further to this, beyond all the issues with bullet points 1–7, which are all contentious claims in the scholarship of each point, I would like to focus on number 8. Bullet point 8 in Baruch's 8 bullet points focusses on the legality of a blockade, and how if there is a severe humanitarian shortage aid agencies can simply request for more aid to be allowed in. This is a perfect point to show the outdatedness of these bullet points, as has been shown from the ICJ's ruling in January, the IDF controlling the blockade (alongside a small section of civilians), restricted aid into Gaza even further, leading multiple international observers to report that Israel had failed to meet the requirements of the ICJ's ruling, further leading South Africa to request additional measures, and for various reliable sources to report on deaths due to starvation within Gaza. This is just one exemplary aspect show the stark difference in conditions in just 4–5 months, let alone the further 6 months since the ICJ rulings. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 13:41, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm aware of the existence of such essays, and certainly the article should discuss in a balanced and NPOV way, the various opinions with due weight, but there also many more sources which are not convinced, even recent ones. For example this Eli Rosenbaum Daily News piece, from last month^[11] Bruce J. Einhorn, Kathleen N. Coleman, Clarice R. Feldman, Joel K. Greenberg, Jeffrey N. Mausner, and Philip L. Sunshine — worked as U.S. federal prosecutors of perpetrators of Nazi genocide ...we have seen no evidence of Israeli commission of genocide, and there is much evidence that disproves that charge — including the recent report that, since October, Israel has facilitated the entry of more than 870 metric tons of food and other humanitarian aid to Gaza’s two million inhabitants. Meanwhile, Hamas attacks or plunders food shipments, and it has denied Gazan civilians access to vast storehouses of food and medicines that it secreted in its tunnels before Oct. 7...Israel has, in fact, done more than any other military has ever done to minimize civilian casualties during large-scale urban warfare, even sacrificing the lives of many of its own soldiers in the process. For example, Israeli forces drop warning leaflets, distribute maps, and place automated phone calls to civilians in Gaza to identify areas in which combat is planned, in order to enable civilians to evacuate in advance...Yet Hamas intentionally impedes efforts of Palestinian civilians to flee to safer areas, and then it uses the military plans provided by Israel to attack its troops, employing Palestinian civilians and hostages seized in Israel as human shields — undeniably a war crime..the deaths of thousands of people during a war is not alone indicative of genocidal intent...Israel too is waging a defensive war against ongoing aggression, war crimes and genocide, but it is taking far greater steps to protect civilian lives than Allied forces did Andre🚐 04:02, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's a tabloid press opinion piece by a prosecutor bigging up other prosecutors and repeating tired Israeli talking points, not a serious anything, and certainly no answer to the peer-reviewed academic papers in the Journal of Genocide Research noted above. Iskandar323 (talk) 05:35, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's a Pulitzer Prize winning publication and one of the major newspapers in the NY area, WP:GENREL on WP:RSP, with an op-ed by a legendary former director of the US DOJ and an expert in prosecuting war crimes, so absolutely reliable and germane. Andre🚐 05:42, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Still opinion. Still non-academic. And from a hardened political insider with a political perspective. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:40, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

870 metric tons of food and other humanitarian aid For the record in a population of 2 million over 11 months this amounts to 1.3 grams(!) per person per day. KetchupSalt (talk) 07:16, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That isn't the only aid though, as other countries and NGOs have provided aid as well, not to mention charitable donations and aid provided by the private sector. Also, not literally every person needs the aid, though it may be more than half and as much as 80%. There's some statistical information released by the Israeli government that suggests that while most of the aid was public early on, more of it is private now.[1] That chart also isn't just food because it also shows the other types of humanitarian aid broken out such as shelter and medical supplies. Also, looking at that site, the number was supposed to be 870,000.Andre🚐 07:25, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

870,000 tons does bring a more reasonable number of 1.3 kg/(person*day). Indeed not everyone needs aid, so perhaps the amount per person in need is closer to double that. Raw mass isn't super useful however, since much of this could for example be water or cement. But this would enter the territory of quibbling, as compared to a difference of three orders of magnitude... KetchupSalt (talk) 07:43, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh and the sending of aid in no way absolves Israel of the crime of genocide. KetchupSalt (talk) 07:52, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Academic articles by experts in the field, in the leading journal for the field in question, should be considered of more weight than articles published in the popular press. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 08:54, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Strictly pertaining to the Eli Rosenbaum op-ed, it's a question of the author's expertise and not simply the publication. An expert article that is WP:SELFPUB or in a WP:RS that's less reputable may take on the reputation of the author. In this case, there's nothing wrong with the publication's reliability, but I'm mainly offering the author as an expert on the topic of war crimes and the prosecution thereof. Andre🚐 09:12, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

He isn’t that. nableezy - 12:14, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose - even if we completely ignore that there was an established consensus for this title and that consensus was reviewed and upheld at a review, the proposed title is terrible. Just independent of any process concern, "Accusations of Gazan genocide in the Israel–Hamas war" is a terrible title. It is overly long and confusing, is it genocide against Gazans or by Gazans? It is limited in scope, ignoring the sources that say this process started well before last year. It fails basically every criteria for article titles. And that’s ignoring the process here. nableezy - 03:36, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Agreed that the proposed title is awkward. A better proposal is simply Accusations of genocide in the ... SPECIFICO talk 10:39, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  @Nableezy and @SPECIFICO there is a discussion below on proposed names if you would like to help select a better alternative. IntrepidContributor (talk) 11:16, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong oppose As M.Bitton noted, nothing has changed since the last requested move, and the claim that "unambiguity is more important than concision" is completely unsupported by WP:TITLE, which treats precision and concision as equally important characteristics in selecting article titles BluePenguin18 🐧 ( 💬 ) 04:44, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong oppose – Nothing has changed since the previous RM, no need to open yet another one for essentially the same thing. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 04:56, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose - At some point, obvious truths need to be recognized for what they are. There are prominent figures who continue to deny the Holocaust and the Armenian genocide, but their positions are rightly ignored by Wikipedia for the same reason that the positions of flat-earthers and climate change deniers, some quite prominent, are ignored here. Because the truth is obvious, and no amount of argument is going to change that. At some point, you have to stop wasting time entertaining those who are willfully ignorant of reality. Ferocious Flying Ferrets 05:10, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong Oppose We've had two votes on this now. Unless there is some groundbreaking evidence that miraculously exonerates Israel from everything, I am forced to consider any new vote an attempt, perhaps unintentional, to manufacture a weak or biased enough turnout to force a change, and then argue for retention at the new title based on the new precedent. I am also very unswayed by the notion we may offend people or cause a lack of trust. Wikipedia has gone against a dozen governments before, I scarcely think we should back down because this one wields scarier accusations of "isms" than the previous lot. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 05:44, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Strongest possible oppose and speedy close. Nothing has changed from earlier, and all of the massive amount of evidence in this page still remains. This is just battleground behaviour. David A (talk) 05:46, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Support, per u:Andre's arguments. The two discussions (move discussion and closure review) were quite close (per the move review closer Overall, there's nothing in here to suggest one side is emphatically right or wrong on that question Wikipedia:Move_review/Log/2024_July). Alaexis_¿question? 07:09, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong Support I opposed the move to Gaza Genocide from the very beginning because I think it does not reflect the uncertainty and ongoing investigation by experts in various fields regarding whether the events in Gaza truly constitute genocide. In the context of the current discussion, I believe that the suggested title "Accusations of Gaza genocide in the Israel-Hamas war" is more appropriate. The use of "accusations" clarifies that the term genocide is a subject of debate and (extreme) controversy, not a settled fact, while maintaining neutrality. The suggested title makes it clear that these are accusations, not a definitive statement in Wikipedia's voice.Eladkarmel (talk) 09:12, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment - Someone lit a fire. This will attract attention. Perhaps the talk page should be extended confirmed protected to reduce the cost of enforcing ARBECR compliance. Sean.hoyland (talk) 09:32, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  You can request it at WP:RPP/I if you want, but I don't think you have much chance unless there is quite a bit of IP disruption. TarnishedPath^talk 10:11, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You are probably right. Also, it takes some time for people to organize their Reddit, Discord etc. calls to arms/off-site canvassing efforts. There is normally a sizable delay between call and response. Sean.hoyland (talk) 10:55, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Procedural close: While I still think it was inappropriate to change this article's title, the arguments I point to for a procedural close are the same as TarnishedPath above, with further details on the current sources, explained by myself in a discussion comment below. --Cdjp1 (talk) 10:02, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong oppose – Nothing has changed since the page was moved to Gaza genocide. Unless there's any new information that would justify moving this page to the long title mentioned above, this discussion should be closed. FunLater (talk) 10:43, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong oppose per above. Nothing has changed since the previous RM. Skitash (talk) 11:08, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Support move this move would be an initial and crucial step in restoring Wikipedia's credibility and neutrality regarding ARBPIA topics. ABHammad (talk) 12:07, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong support. The current title claims that there actually is a genocide, namely that people are being killed intentionally because of their ancestry or other aspects correlated with ancestry (e.g skin color, culture). This is not the case. The target title makes zero claim on any actual genocide, only accusations of it. Animal lover |666| 12:44, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong oppose and procedural close per Selfstudier and TarnishedPath who echoed what I wanted to say. How many times are we going to do this? Sixth time's the charm? - Ïvana (talk) 13:04, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong oppose for the reasons mentioned by Bluethricecreamman, TarnishedPath, Iazyges, Cdjp1, BluePenguin18 and Selfstudier.
• Strong oppose per Tarnishedpath. Similarly, Allegations of Israeli apartheid was nominated no less than 10x for deletion (different situation here) and currently is moved to its current target Israeli apartheid. As a side note, English Wikipedia's reputation remains strong throughout, despite efforts by Israeli lobby groups to cast doubt. Perhaps if we renamed to Settlement of Gaza genocide people would stop trying to 'evict' it. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 13:47, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. Firstly, WP:SNOW means this is already over, especially considering the last move review was concluded less than 3 weeks ago on 22 August 2024. I would have supported a moratorium (for 3/6 months, not any longer), but that vote is already over, extremely convincingly choosing for no moratorium. But, I mean this debate is not going to go away. A month or two maximum after this is closed, there will be another RM. MarkiPoli (talk) 14:04, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong oppose for not bringing anything new to the table and only relitigating the previous, well-attended and confirmed move, but with an even worse and more convoluted title alternative than the original + with no substance or merit to the RM. A lack of a moratorium is not an invitation to raise fresh RMs without demonstrating a change of circumstances. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:04, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Support, the topic is widely controversial and there are ferocious arguments about it in the real world. It is best for Wikipedia to be neutral and reflect an objective outlook on the issue. The title nominated better serves in protecting Wikipedia's neutrality. Galamore (talk) 15:10, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. This is complicated. There is a war, and a lot of civilians are always killed in every war. Actually, the ratio of civilian:militant killed during this war is pretty low (1:1 according to Israeli sources). It was much higher in wars by US. Then, there could be war crimes, but they are not genocide. But even the war crimes are debatable because the Israeli forces did care to move civilians out of the areas of most intense operations and created some presumably safe zones in Gaza. Yes, a couple of Israeli officials (I would call them far-right idiots) did say on several occasions "let's kill them all". Nevertheless, this is not at all an official policy of the Jewish state, de juro or de facto. What we have are only allegations. They should be described as such, and indeed, they are described as such in the lead of this page (I did not read anything below the lead). The title of the page should simply be consistent with its content. My very best wishes (talk) 16:04, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

'Comment.

Actually, the ratio of civilian:militant killed during this war is pretty low (1:1 according to Israeli sources).

MVBW. You are citing one Israeli source, that ignored the evidence of Israeli officials themselves.

See Casualties of the Israel–Hamas war, where it cites a December 2023 estimation by the IDF that Israel was doing remarkably well in killing only two civilians for every combatant.

Official sources stated by April that it was acceptable to kill 30 civilians in exchange for taking out one lower-order Hamas commander.

It was The Times of Israel which trumpeted the claim you repeat almost verbatim, that the combatant vs civilian kill ratio was close to I:!, an historic achievement in protecting civilians.

But serious strategic analysts stated shortly afterwards the contrary that:

'Israeli military rules of engagement reportedly allow the killing of up to 20 civilians to take out a single junior Hamas fighter, 100 for a senior leader. By comparison, the United States put the ratio at 30-to-one for Saddam Hussein.(Daniel Byman, A War They Both Are Losing: Israel, Hamas and the Plight of Gaza International Institute for Strategic Studies 4 June 2024.

Given that oppose positions are grounded in prior discussion of a mass of first class RS, supporting a change requires serious new sourcing, not trumped up propaganda claims, duly dismissed, like the ToL piece.Nishidani (talk) 22:35, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't trust any estimations made over 5 years in the future...@Nishidani Me Da Wikipedian (talk) 22:39, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

CorrectedNishidani (talk) 22:44, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Myth #1: The conflict is too complex to possibly understand – The 11 biggest myths about Israel-Palestine ... thankfully there are genocide scholars for this topic, as reiterated quite redundantly at the last RM – so covered! Iskandar323 (talk) 16:33, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I did not say the conflict is too complex to possibly understand, and I agree with the author of the linked article about the "myths". This is an interesting "fact checking" article. Please check Myth #10: Israel is explicitly seeking Palestinians’ total destruction. That is what I am saying. My very best wishes (talk) 16:50, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That was written in 2015, years before Gaza genocide began in 2023. Levivich (talk) 17:01, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, of course. My very best wishes (talk) 17:06, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would point out the Vox article is almost ten years old, and in that time there has been an explicit move in the Knesset to the right, with Bibi agree to work with far-right parties who have explicit expulsionary and irredentist ideologies. This fact has been brought up multiple times in popular press, as well as explicitly in the work of genocide scholars, in published academic articles assessing the current situation as genocidal. Particularly Yoav Di-Capua's article "Genocidal Mirroring in Israel/Palestine", and Raz Segal and Luigi Daniele's article "Gaza as Twilight of Israel Exceptionalism: Holocaust and Genocide Studies from Unprecedented Crisis to Unprecedented Change". These three scholars highlight the increasing genocidal rhetoric in the Knesset over the past decade. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 17:10, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"the increasing genocidal rhetoric in the Knesset". Yes, this seems to be true. Somehow I am not surprised given the ferocity and the endless nature of the conflict. I have no idea how they are going to resolve it. My very best wishes (talk) 17:23, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Safe zones" have been a tool of genocide before... it does not prove anything about the supposedly benign intentions of the Israeli state—and they are specifically argued to be tools of ethnic cleansing and genocide by multiple sources that have been cited here. Also Forensic Architecture found that "these measures, far from protecting Palestinian civilians, serve rather to support Israel’s genocidal campaign by systematically forcing civilians into unliveable areas". (t · c) buidhe 17:35, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it does appear that nowhere in Gaza is safe. As an outsider to this conflict, I would assume that all civilians should simply be allowed to evacuate from the war zone (as would be in any other war), which can be only to Egypt or other countries. But apparently that other countries do not allow the Palestinian refugees to enter, even when they want to go, and do not facilitate their immigration and transportation (I assume that the Israel would be only happy to help them out?). I am not trying to make any moral judgements, but simply thinking about the historical precedents of resolving such conflicts, only the recent Flight of Nagorno-Karabakh Armenians comes to my mind. Was it genocide of Armenians? That did not happen in Gaza, at least not yet. My very best wishes (talk) 18:48, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NOTFORUM. nableezy - 19:41, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong oppose/bad RM/WP:SNOW - Procedurally, two weeks after the last Move Review closed, with no new sources brought to the discussion, and no new arguments, is too soon to have another RM. It's a ridiculous waste of time to have a whole second RM simply because somebody on the internet disagrees with the first one. (Disclosure: I tried removing this RM when it was first posted and reported InterpidContributor to AE for restoring it twice.) We're going to end up having the same people make the same votes for the same reasons as last time. Substantively, I oppose this for the same reasons as last time. Levivich (talk) 17:05, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong support – As I said on the talk page I believe the current title is an NPOV violation and I do not feel a consensus was reached in the previous move request. —mountainhead / ? 17:27, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose relitigation of the last RM. Let's put a moratorium on it and discuss it in 1-2 years when the dust settles. Incidentally, the support arguments often rest on a misconception of the concept of genocide—for example one supporter arguing that Gazans are not "being killed intentionally because of their ancestry or other aspects correlated with ancestry (e.g skin color, culture)"—mass killing is not required for genocide, nor is "ancestry" and its correlates the only grounds on which genocide can be committed—even according to more restrictive definitions of genocide. (t · c) buidhe 17:35, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong oppose To be honest this RM seems like the continuation of the usual toxic battleground behaviour that dominates this topic area. A matter of weeks ago the previous RM closure was endorsed at WP:MRV. Fundamentally what has changed since the last time this was assessed? AusLondonder (talk) 19:07, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  A few relevant experts have changed from "warning of potential genocide" to "this is genocidal", is the main difference in RS since the last move request. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 22:31, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Support moving this article to something that is less POV pushing - but I'm not a fan of this particular proposed title. It's unwieldy. --Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 21:00, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Support - Gaza genocide is a WP:POVNAME, and our policy is to use POV names only when they're so common as to effectively become a proper name, which clearly hasn't happened. There's no need to quantify how many genocide scholars subscribe to each view - the fact that there's a (non-fringe) controversy means that it's a POV name. We should take a cue from the mainstream media here, since they tend to have similar asperations of neutrality. Literally all MSM sources describe accusations of genocide, rather than calling it a genocide in their own voice. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 21:25, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Or maybe look to ask the scholarly papers already out in the Journal of Genocide Research et al. ... instead of, erm, the local newspapers. Iskandar323 (talk) 23:49, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Mainstream media has the unique feature of journalistic objectivity, making it a useful signal for assessing the neutrality of names. Of course this is an ideal; in reality no source is perfectly neutral. But when MSM sources are completely unanimous about a certain naming decision, that should be a wake-up call.

  Individual scholars have no such commitment to neutrality. Certain journals might impose some standard of neutrality, but not so much the Journal of Genocide Research, which has been accused of Holocaust Minimization, Anti-Israel Themes, and Antisemitism. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 04:16, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Ah, that article by Charny, where Charny considers any comparative analysis in genocide studies between any event and the Holocaust to be at least Holocaust minimisation if not denial. Oh, except for when Charny does the comparative analysis. And may we not forget Charny has had it out for the journal ever since it retracted a comment by him accusing another Jewish genocide scholar of Holocaust denial.

  And this is before we get into the laughable notion of "journalistic objectivity", where broadly sich a notion is ripped to shreds in research, and is even highlighted as an issue in regards to Israel-Palestine. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 09:03, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  That's not a fair summary of Charny's critique, and anyway the important part of the paper is the data, where a majority of respondents felt the journal involved Holocaust minimization and so forth.

  Sure no news agency is perfectly neutral; that doesn't really matter given that they're completely unanimous on this matter. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 15:03, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  @XDanielx the data is how respondents felt about selected quotes, taken from the context of their articles that Charny presented to them. How the respondents felt had they been presented the papers the small quotes were taken from could be very different, and must be considered when assessing Charny's paper here.

  And to clarify, my previous comment is a summary of how Charny has conducted himself across multiple critiques, not this specific paper. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 15:48, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Procedural closeit's been a few weeks since we closed the last RM, i don't see any new evidence presented etc etc ... —blindlynx 22:00, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Support; was pinged here since I participated in the previous RM, and my position remains the same. Mainstream media and news outlets don't refer to what's happening in Gaza as a "genocide" in their own 'voice', so neither should Wikipedia. Some1 (talk) 22:26, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Support move The current title is a clear POV title. The previous close illustrates one of the flaws of our close review process. We have what can very reasonably be seen as a bad close (clear consensus for some move but no obvious consensus between the choices with a near 50/50 split). However, once the move was made with basically no majority, it now takes a supermajority to say the close was bad since the 50% that liked the move can simply claim "the move was good" and secure a "no consensus". I agree with the concerns that this makes Wikipedia look very biased and overall hurts the credibility of Wikipedia via the bad look. I didn't participate in any of the previous topic discussions. Springee (talk) 22:48, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Support move. Current title is clearly POV, there may not be any new arguments but hopefully there will be an actual assessment of consensus in this discussion. The last RM ended in a supervote based on a fractured discussion that intentionally split editors up between two different "qualifier" words in order to make it seem like the current title had the most support. There is no academic consensus at all that this is a genocide, even if there is consensus that there have been significant civilian casualties. Those claiming there is some academic consensus have repeatedly cherrypicked sources to support their view. This entire topic has been the subject of POV pushing and it damages Wikipedia's reputation to allow a title like this that states as a fact what is still in active, significant debate. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 03:27, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per the previous discussion. As for "The title doesn't match the article", we should bring the article in line with the emerging consensus and the reality of the situation. Also it seems there is no title you can pick that won't be seen as POV. Take "Gaza genocide accusations" for example. This would seem to suggest that these are mere accusations without any substance to them. Such a suggestion would require completely ignoring the words and actions of Israeli officials and IDF soldiers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by KetchupSalt (talk �� contribs) 07:56, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong oppose/bad RM/WP:SNOW/Procedural close This is getting absurd at this point. The topic was closed just recently after having gone through several rounds already, and it was decided convincingly. No new arguments have been presented to restart it, nothing has changed in terms of the underlying facts. This is an abuse of the system and we shouldn't entertain it.Raskolnikov.Rev (talk) 08:56, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. Almost nothing has been said in this discussion that wasn't said in the last two. If the consensus (or lack thereof) ends up any different, it'd be because everyone is exhausted and may not argue as effectively as they did before. We should propose a moratorium after this to avoid yet another rehash and save everyone's time and energy. PBZE (talk) 17:12, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose Such a move would further the article from a neutral point of view, and as mentioned above this issue has been handily and repeatedly settled. entropyandvodka | talk 17:30, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong oppose per logic of the RFC which brought the article to Gaza Genocide in the first place. 🌸wasianpower🌸 (talk • contribs) 17:38, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging @Paul Vaurie, @Simonm223, @Kashmiri, @Entropyandvodka, @Chaotic Enby, @Zanahary, @The Great Mule of Eupatoria, @Jerdle, @Esolo5002, @Howardcorn33, @CybJubal, @Iskandar323, @David A, @Levivich, @Unbandito, @Ïvana, @PBZE, @Hogo-2020, @My very best wishes and @Stephan rostie as editors involved in the prior RM. Part 1 of 4. TarnishedPath^talk 03:56, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Pinging @Rainsage, @Cdjp1, @Oleg Yunakov, @Eladkarmel, @האופה, @FunLater, @Skitash, @Smallangryplanet, @Vinegarymass911, @BilledMammal, @FortunateSons, @Nishidani, @SKAG123, @MarkiPoli, @Metropolitan90, @Dreameditsbrooklyn, @CoffeeCrumbs, @CommunityNotesContributor, @BluePenguin18 and @XDanielx as editors involved in the prior RM discussion. Part 2 of 4. TarnishedPath^talk 03:58, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Pinging @Trilletrollet, @TimeEngineer, @Bondegezou, @Cremastra, @Blindlynx, @Vice regent, @Crossroads, @FunLater, @KetchupSalt, @Vegan416, @Cremastra, @Brusquedandelion, @AndyBloch, @Alaexis, @Czello, @Me Da Wikipedian, @Animal lover 666, @Kinsio, @NoonIcarus and @Personisinsterest as editors involved in the prior RM discussion. Part 3 of 4. TarnishedPath^talk 04:01, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Pinging @Some1, @Kowal2701, @Let'srun, @Alalch E., @Iazyges, @Huldra, @SPECIFICO and @DaZyzzogetonsGotDaLastWord as editors involved in the prior RM. Part 4 of 4. Appologies if I've missed anyone or doubled up pinging anyone. It was a lot of editors. TarnishedPath^talk 04:03, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject International relations, WikiProject Discrimination, WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, WikiProject Human rights, WikiProject Israel, WikiProject Death, WikiProject Ethnic groups, WikiProject Palestine, WikiProject Disaster management, and WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration have been notified of this discussion. TarnishedPath^talk 04:04, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: In response to scholarly/expert opinion is more polarized that what has been claimed, it is very dependent on how we draw the boundaries. Template:Expert opinions in the Gaza genocide debate aimed to gather all opinions, and there are a couple of trends of note that should be pointed out:

1. As time has gone on we have seen more people come to the conclusion that this is genocide, a couple of prominent opinions of note that have come out since the last move request are Omer Bartov in August 2024 where he has moved from warning of a potential for genocide to this being genocide, and Amos Goldberg in July 2024.
2. If we look at specifically genocide scholars, there is a clear majority of those who have expressed their opinion, or provided their analysis that this is a genocide. It is also (so far) only genocide scholars who have published their analysis in peer-reviewed academic journals.
3. Most of the experts who argue this is not genocide are legal scholars, applying the UN framework, that is, they argue there is not currently evidence of dolus specialis. The UN framework is considered generally lacking and not fit for determining what is or is not genocide among genocide scholars (even among the few genocide scholars who are currently choosing to use the framework to argue that Gaza is not a genocide). While we should include their opinions in the article, the UN framework is not the metric we use, we use what reliable sources use, so we privilege academic literature first-and-foremost, balanced with the other published opinions of relevant specialists and experts.

So I would argue, since there hasn't been any massive change in such sources (though it could be argued a slight move in support of labelling this a genocide), there is not currently grounds to reargue the move of the article. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 08:53, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment I’d like to see evidence of academic polarization before I decide. Personisinsterest (talk) 10:59, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Let's not forget @HaOfa, @Oleg Y, @Rockstone35, @Thisasia, @Guise, @Zohariko1234 and @mountainhead. IntrepidContributor (talk) 14:08, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@IntrepidContributor, HaOfa's and Oleg Y's usernames are different to their signatures. I already included them. I can't see that Rockstone35, Thisasia, Guise or mountainhead participated in the RM at Talk:Gaza_genocide/Archive_2#Requested_move_3_May_2024. Can you please advise where you are getting those editors from? TarnishedPath^talk 02:36, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I participated in the move review, but I did not participate in the May 3rd proposal. -- Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 03:42, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I ping those two users from the list of names in the move review. The other three are from page move related discussions above. IntrepidContributor (talk) 07:11, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@IntrepidContributor have you pinged selected editors from the move review? TarnishedPath^talk 04:05, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@TarnishedPath i do participated in the move from the achieved talk Thisasia  ^(Talk) 08:00, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

From talk page discussions above: [2] [3] [4]. IntrepidContributor (talk) 08:19, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@IntrepidContributor, it's apparent to me that you didn't ping all editors from those discussions. That's WP:CANVASSING. I suggest you rectify that by pinging ALL editors who were involved in those discussions excluding ones that I've already pinged above. TarnishedPath^talk 09:23, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest you AGF. If you notice any editors missing from my post, who you didn't ping already in your post, you may do so now. IntrepidContributor (talk) 11:06, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Chuckstablers, Sameboat, Hemiauchenia, and Redxiv: you were missing from overly-long ping lists. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:49, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - there are two questions here, one procedural (whether it's too early for another RM) and one substantive (which title is most appropriate). It might be too late now, but it would have been cleaner if procedural objections had been made in a separate section. If this ends up not being closed for procedural reasons, then it goes to substance, where the closer may have a hard time discerning whether each procedural oppose is also a substantive oppose, and if so, how much weight to assign such !votes which don't get into substantive arguments. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 16:32, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Name #1: Gaza genocide allegation is more in line with the current content of the article.
• Name #2: Gaza genocide accusation is a second favourite often proposed in some form, like the one above.
• Name #3: Allegations of genocide in the Israel-Hamas war propoped above, inserting here. The others still concatenate Gaza and genocide. SPECIFICO talk 15:11, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Both these names are shorter and more concise than the Accusations of Gazan genocide in the Israel–Hamas war and some of the longer names proposed in earlier discussions. IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:07, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why u wanna change the name if it's confirmed most victims are civilians 50% women and children. Says it's confirmed in article, change name and it's all of a sudden biased bruh HumansRightsIsCool (talk) 22:28, 9 September 2024 (UTC) struck WP:ECR violation Left guide (talk) 05:38, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The relationship between genocide status and casualty ratios is a matter for genocide scholars to discuss; this isn't the place for it. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 22:45, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Either Name 1 or Name 2 works in my opinion. Let'srun (talk) 00:13, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Name 2 would match Palestinian genocide accusation nicely, though WP:CONSISTENT is a minor consideration; any of the proposed names seem okay. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 02:58, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Either 1 or 2 is fine, I have a slight preference for name 2 for consistency as XDanielx points out. I will caution those commenting on this topic however that the last RM was derailed by the splitting of editors between these alternative names, and that is the reason the closer claimed to find a consensus for the current POV name. If editors are arguing against one or more of these alternative names (rather than just expressing a slight preference for one but acceptability of them all), it would be prudent to be extremely clear in your reasoning to avoid your opinion being seen as a !vote for the current title. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 03:29, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  The purpose of this discussion is to decide on the right alternative name. I so happen to believe that the closer of the last discussion should have been able to count the !votes and group them by names, and decide on one of them, or as a noconsensus. IntrepidContributor (talk) 07:13, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Either one is fine, with a slight preference for 2 per xDanielx. FortunateSons (talk) 07:19, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Based on the discussion immediately above, I would like to propose Gaza genocide accusation as the new RM name in place of Gazan genocide in the Israel–Hamas war as proposed above by OP @WikiFouf. IntrepidContributor (talk) 08:54, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Support as nominator. IntrepidContributor (talk) 08:55, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Support this or the other name. Andre🚐 08:57, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]