User:Montanabw/Hooves

Google Scholar search

• http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22white+hooves%22+%2Bhorse&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C27

Science-based or peer-reviewed journals

• http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S153751100400162X
• http://www.apex.seraonline.org/APEXpdf/ConformationMarks.pdf
  • Cites:
• 21. Bertram JEA, Gosline JM. Fracture toughness design in horse hoof keratin. J Exp Biol 1986;125:29–47. [1]
• 22. Bertram JEA, Gosline JM. Functional design of horse hoof keratin. J Exp Biol 1987;130:121–136. [2]
• 23. Landeau LJ, Barnett DJ, Batterman SC. Mechanical properties of equine hooves. Am J Vet Res 1983;44:100.
• 24. Leach D. The structure and function of the equine hoof wall. PhD Thesis, Univ of Saskatchewan 1980.
• 25. Robertson IP, Hood DM, Slater MR. Ability of commercial hoof wall products to maintain hydration of equine hoof wall, in Proceedings. 42nd Annu Conv Am Assoc Equine Practnr 1996;208 –211.
• 26. Kasapi MA, JA Gosline, Strain-rate-dependent mechanical properties of the equine hoof wall. The Journal of Experimental Biology 199, 1133–1146 (1996) [3]
• 27. Thomason [4]

Not science journals

• http://www.americanfarriers.com/pages/Spre/From-The-Desk-Of-AFJ-Forget-About-Hoof-Color!-6-13-14.php
  • Cites:
• Bertram, J.E.A. & Gosline, J.M. (1986) Fracture Toughness Design in Horse Hoof Keratin. Journal of Experimental Biology, 125 18.
• Dyce, K.M., Sack, W.O., & Wensing, C.J.G. (2010) Horse Textbook of Veterinary Anatomy (4th ed., pp 609-614). Missouri: Saunders Elsevier.

• http://www.americanfarriers.com/file_open.php?id=179 (The Jaime Jackson article, with a lot of bad historical research and unsupported OR)

• http://www.horsesandpeople.com.au/sites/default/files/articles/CWatson_Whitehooves_Dec12.pdf
  • cites:
• 1. Bertram, J.E.A, & Gosline, J.M. (1986). Fracture Toughness Design in Horse hoof keratin. Journal of Experimental Biology, 125, 18.
• 2. Douglas, J.E, Mitta, C, Thomason, J.J, & Jofriet, J.C. (1996). The Modulus of Elasticity of Equine Hoof Wall: Implications for the mechanical function of the hoof. The Journal of Experimental Biology, 199, 5.
• 3. Dyce, K.M, Sack, W.O, & Wensing, C.J.G. (2010). Horses Textbook of Veterinary Anatomy (4th ed., pp. 609-614). Missouri: Saunders Elseview.
• 4. Myers, M. (2009). Knack leg and hoof care for horses: A complete illustrated guide. China:Morris Book Publishing.
• 5. Pollitt, C.C. (2010). The anatomy and physiology of the hoof wall. Equine Veterinary Eduction, 10(6), 7.

Here's some more anecdotal/non-scientific stuff:

• http://www.bwfa.net/hooves_white_vs_black.html

This one is just a forum, but I found it interesting just because there were a few theories put forward as to why people might think white hooves were worse than black. The one about sanding down the hoof especially was curious.

• http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-403288.html

This one attributes it more to genetics/the individual horse.

• http://www.showcircuit.co.nz/PDFs/December%20Issue/Hoof_Care_Myths.pdf

And this one refers to "studies", but doesn't tell us what "studies" they were...Might show up in the books that were referenced? They implicate genetics as well.

• http://www.infovets.com/books/equine/A/A325.htm

References:

• 1. Stashak TS: Adams’ Lameness in Horses, Ed 4, Philadelphia, 1987, Lea & Febiger.
• 2. Butler KD: The Principles of Horseshoeing II, Maryville, MO, 1985, Doug Butler Publisher.

The King article mentioned in here (on dressings) mentioned studies that showed that standing in a dirty stall WILL make hooves weaker, but it didn't specify color.

• http://itsaboutthehorse.myfastforum.org/archive/limited-permeability-of-hoof-wall__o_t__t_3257.html

Here's the full text of the Douglas study you have above:

• http://jeb.biologists.org/content/199/8/1829.full.pdf

Laurelmw (talk) 23:27, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Blogs and message baords cannot be used as WP sources, but like WP itself, can lead to other resorues. Will take a look, maybe over the weekend. Montanabw^(talk) 19:51, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

• Holy moly! That J.E. Douglas article just makes my point about "scientific" studies: they used only six hooves, only one of which was white, all from cadaver animals, apparently one foot from each of 6 horses (not even comparing multiple feet on the same horse), mixed breed, no discussion of anything else. SIX samples? Montanabw^(talk) 20:00, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

I wouldn't be surprised if part of the reason for lack of study is lack of subjects. Doesn't seem like they're doing them on live animals, and I'm not sure how many horses get necropsies every year that would make hooves readily available. I wonder if in Canada they've got any studies going on, since they would have slaughterhouses full of hooves presumably... Laurelmw (talk) 01:02, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Speaking of necropsies, if you aren't squeamish, this is a really cool series. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsvS6gEBJuE&feature=kp Laurelmw (talk) 01:08, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

It's an uncomfortable topic, but if they did want to study cadaver hooves, in a word, slaughterhouses, particularly in Canada or Europe where there is still horsemeat slaughter under controlled conditions. When I studied horse management, we spent some time over at the horseshoeing school studying hooves and feet, and they literally had a big deep freezer full of cadaver legs that the shoeing school students practiced on before they let them at live horses. Any horseshoeing school in the country would have plenty of live subjects also, just take a weeks's worth of fresh hoof trimmings and they could assess age, breed, height, weight, body condition score, have clippings from all four feet of individual horses, etc. and run some of the same tests they did in earlier studies. Owners could even fill out info on diet. They'd have hundreds of samples. The vet schools do necropsies regularly, they could just routinely grab hoof material too. Would take time and money, but doable. Montanabw^(talk) 05:27, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

The more I think about this, the more studies I can think of that I wish I could find/or do. For example, feral horses would be interesting, because even though they are descended from animals that were previously artificially selected for what humans considered "desirable" traits, they have had many generations where natural and sexual selection could play a part (if white hooves were weaker, would those horses be less likely to survive and therefore less prevalent? Are they more of a target for predators? Does "attractiveness" factor in at all like sexual selection in birds has caused some crazy results?) And then unlike in racehorses where we have artificially selected for a trait (speed) regardless of specific appearance, there are other breeds that specifically select FOR white hooves (Clydesdales for example) and select AGAINST any white (Cleveland Bays come to mind) so they could be some interesting populations to look at. Laurelmw (talk) 21:20, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

The Jaime Jackson research was done mostly on feral horses, and one of the reasons his conclusions wound up being so controversial is that management and diet plays such a huge role that you cannot extrapolate nearly as much data from wild conditions as one might think. What little we do know is that white in general tends to be less common in a naturally-selected population prone to predation, as white markings make an animal stand out as an easier target for hunting. One of the editors I used to work on the coat color articles with here pointed me to some studies of foxes, which are, in some respects, (mostly due to the fur industry) a species currently undergoing domestication in the modern age, and we are seeing more white markings and unusual coloring in animals now bred for multiple generations in captivity... I agree that the Clydesdale/Cleveland Bay study would be interesting, as would a real simple study of white and black feet on Clydesdales, plenty of whom have only two or three white feet - plenty of culls from the Budweiser program alone, one would think! Montanabw^(talk) 20:26, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

@Laurelmw: Read that Bertram 1986 study, Froggerlaura linked a full text copy above. You said you studied engineering, you may find it useful to analyze what precisely they were doing there. The good news is how very, very tough horse hoof tissue is. But vis a vis the dark/white hoof issue, they mention color only in one paragraph in passing - and - I found it interesting that again, we had cadaver hooves, but this time they had ALL the specimens soaking in water for five days - something we'd not normally do with live horses! (Thus, among other things, any differences in the rate at which living hooves of different pigments absorb water cannot be factored in as all samples were completely saturated) They also only tested black or white hooves, nothing varigated or of in-between color. They also "discarded" all the distal hoof wall samples because they were weaker (?) because they found the older tissue had "fatigue damage" (well, duh, and that's where horseshoes go..) which rather defeats the purpose of a study of living horse hoof tissue, as most hoof cracks start at the ground level, barring injury elsewhere. Again, wow, more study is needed, but I'd be interested to hear your assessment of the stress testing that was done. Montanabw^(talk) 20:56, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, the Siberian fur fox experiment is pretty amazing. I saw a documentary on it a few years ago. Crazy to think that within a few generations of selecting for more docile animals that they started to get more "dog-like" characteristics like floppy ears and spots... I'm only partway through the Bertram study, I'll have to finish the rest tomorrow, but I'm curious to see what the results of their tensile tests were. That doesn't really seem like something that would be that relevant when a hoof is generally subjected to compressive forces, so I'd think you'd want to look at resistance to compression in addition to any permanent damage due to deformation (like how the metal in a plane can deform and return to it's original state only a certain number of times before it gets stress fractures). Will read when I am less tired and am not having flashbacks to freshman statics class (I was EE with a concentration in signal processing, so this wasn't something I was exposed to a lot of) Laurelmw (talk) 02:36, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

And as for why they soaked the hooves first...all I could think of was this comic: http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=1476 Laurelmw (talk) 02:41, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Good LOL! Indeed, that article is just what you can probably understand better than I, as I am not an engineer. Montanabw^(talk) 20:28, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Now that I've actually found some time to look at the Douglas study, it was interesting that they noted that stiffness and moisture content were inversely correlated, so if there was a study showing a difference in moisture content between white/black hooves, there might be something there. They mentioned the Bertram study and pointed out that the inner wall actually was as moist as what they had soaked their hooves to, effectively making the outer wall as weak as the inner wall in their study. Not sure if that completely invalidates that other study or just skews how the results should be interpreted. I don't like that they used a different method on the quarters of the hooves (all one layer) compared with the front of the hoof where they broke it into inner and outer. Given that they showed different results for the front, they then just extrapolated to the quarters, which I would call lazy science. But a browse through some old statics material makes the tension test make more sense. Overall I'd say the way they set the experiment up makes sense, but the small sample size and the "experimental error" (slippage of some test materials) doesn't exactly make this the definitive study, but I think it's better than the Bertram one. Laurelmw (talk) 21:03, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

I've done some more reading on "domestic" characteristics in general, and how selecting for one trait inadvertently affects others. This article is explicitly talking about how selecting for "tame" traits results in other visible changes including coloration http://theconversation.com/why-so-many-domesticated-mammals-have-floppy-ears-29141 but it does seem likely that when we select for aesthetic traits we can accidentally negatively impact health. (The AQHA trend for giant muscles and the "Impressive" issue is a good example, or even a lot of the dog breeds today like german shepherds selecting for the sloping back). This article references a study showing that blue eyes DON'T have more problems than brown, but the related surrounding pink skinned areas do, suggesting that if certain breeds push for more white on animals there may be more problems in those breeds that you wouldn't see in a wild cousin. http://www.horsecollaborative.com/what-you-need-to-know-blue-eyed-horses I've also been trying to read up on founder since my mom's welsh cob cross has had problems this summer if she even LOOKS at green grass, which makes her an interesting case of a horse who has really strong hooves, that due to a genetic metabolic problem can suddenly have sore feet. Adds another variable to the hoof controversy... Laurelmw (talk) 12:38, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Definitely. We have a vet student currently doing some work on laminitis, I have had to manage several horses with the condition over the years. The ones that can survive the toughest conditions are the ones most prone to it when the times are good and the grass is green. Montanabw^(talk) 21:21, 8 August 2014 (UTC)