Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 106

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Hi all,

As some users may be aware, India (as well as several other countries) has a number of laws making maps that do not match the Indian government’s national border outline illegal. While this has been a known potential issue for many years, in 2023, the Indian government’s Ministry of Electronics and Information Technology (MeitY) sent the Foundation several direct complaints about specific maps. This has led to them sending an overall list of 81 URLs on the Wikimedia projects (primarily English Wikipedia and Wikimedia Commons). In India, MeitY has overall enforcement authority over website hosting companies and has indicated to the Foundation that they would block access to Wikipedia in India if nothing is done in response to their demands.

As is usual for our response to government demands, we explained the community-governance processes for the Wikimedia projects and that content and editorial decisions are made by volunteers. We have been clear throughout our interactions that the Foundation would not perform any changes, nor is there an expectation for the community to do so. MeitY agreed with this and has clarified that their request does not involve deleting any content on the Wikimedia projects.

Instead, they have made two requests to us. One is that we notify users (which we understand to mean editors) about MeitY’s demands, and the second is that notices be added to pages noting where maps do not comply with Indian law. On the second, they also requested a pointer to the official Survey of India map, which they recently agreed to release into the public domain and which was uploaded to Wikimedia Commons.

The Foundation Legal Department’s opinion is that the first request to inform the communities about the notices to the Foundation is reasonable and in line with our transparency principles, and we are therefore making this post.

For the second request, we understand MeitY’s concern to be around readers misinterpreting a map’s depiction of the disputed border. We believe that it may be possible to address some of MeitY’s concerns in line with current content policies, adding language to some image captions mentioning the dispute in normal encyclopedic prose. Where possible, we defer the question of making these changes to community processes and are here to provide transparency on this situation and our perspective on options.

After a manual review of the 81 received URLs, we developed a list of twelve maps of India (on eight pages) where there is both no indication of the border dispute (in the map or caption) and where mention of the dispute may be beneficial in providing due weight in context.

Manually-reviewed list of pages and files
Number in unedited list	Page link	Page section(s)	Presumed file(s) affected
3	India	India#Administrative divisions	File:Political map of India EN.svg
78	Foreign relations of India		Diplomatic relations of India.svg
		Foreign relations of India#South 2	Members of BIMSTEC.svg
		Foreign relations of India#South 2	Map of India WV.svg
		Foreign relations of India#Border disputes	Indus river.svg
		Foreign relations of India#Policy	Diplomatic missions of India.PNG
73	India–Pakistan relations		File:Pakistan India Locator 2.png
66	India–Iran relations		Iran India Locator.svg
62	India–Uzbekistan relations		File:India–Uzbekistan Locator.svg
21	Bhutan–India relations		File:India Bhutan Locator.png
22	China–India relations		File:India China Locator.png
25	1998 Wandhama massacre		File:India location map.svg

The Wikimedia Foundation stands by the community’s editorial decisions and processes. If the community decides not to take any action, we will inform MeitY of that decision and, in the event Wikipedia is blocked, attempt to challenge it.

Thank you everyone for your time and consideration.  Jrogers (WMF) (talk) 22:49, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for bringing this to us; we appreciate the work WMF Legal does.

Some of the maps, where it might be appropriate to include details about the dispute, already appear to depict the location of the disputed border. For example, File:Political map of India EN.svg and File:India location map.svg appears to match commons:File:States of India (Survey of India).pdf, with both of them depicting India's claim? Can you give us more information about MeitY's objections to these maps; do they want us to depict the territory as Indian, rather than merely claimed by India?

For most of the rest, particularly maps like File:Indus river.svg on pages like Astore River and File:IPhone 3G Availability.svg on iPhone I don't think including the fact that India disputes the border would be relevant, and I feel that doing so across the encyclopedia would provide WP:UNDUE emphasis to India's claims; for other countries with disputed borders we don't mention them every time a map involving those borders is shown, and we shouldn't make an exception because India is issuing legal threats.

In regards to the specific proposals presented by MeitY, I think that adding notices is a non-starter, and adding a pointer to the official survey map isn't much more likely to be appropriate or succeed. BilledMammal (talk) 23:03, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for this well written summary, Jacob (and Legal more generally). It's probably is worth taking a look at each of the map uses that doesn't note the dispute to see if they should be more prominently marked. I can't imagine we will be adding the notices. As to the pointer, again, it would be odd to add that to every single instance of the map (marked as disputed or not), but there may be some cases where it's worth adding to the see also/ext links section. Nosebagbear (talk) 23:10, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Hi BilledMammal. Thank you for your comments. We understand MeitY’s concerns to be focused on noting that the territory is disputed, not to portray the territory as undisputed in their favor. Jrogers (WMF) (talk) 23:30, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the clarification. However, that does mean I don't understand their objection to some of these maps where that already appears to have been done. BilledMammal (talk) 23:32, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

The difference in list size between "81 URLs" and the list above does suggest that...quite a few of them will be flawed, even with the most generous of interpretations. Nosebagbear (talk) 23:36, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

If they want the disputes to be noted rather than removed entirely, why is Pakistan on this list? The light green part is land that is claimed by both countries – does India want us to ignore Pakistan's claim?

Also, and more to the general point, what would we do if we received a similar complaint from the government of Pakistan? Or Bhutan? Or China? I'm concerned that this sets a very dangerous precedent. By all means we should be going through these articles to make sure they are accurate and well-represented, but we should not be bending over backward to placate an overzealous government. – bradv 23:37, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Hi Bradv, thanks for your comment! In the interest of transparency, we thought it necessary to bring this to the attention of the community. I want to clarify that we are not proposing any specific changes; rather, we’re hoping to communicate our understanding of the situation for consideration by the community. I think the standard you articulated: “By all means we should be going through these articles to make sure they are accurate and well-represented, but we should not be bending over backward to placate an overzealous government” is a great way to review this. Jrogers (WMF) (talk) 00:03, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

@Jrogers (WMF). For full transparency, can you post redacted copies of these several communications from the Government of India's MeitY related to this issue and the Wikimedia Foundation's redacted written response(s) thus far?

Also, have you contacted the Internet Archive about a recent removal of a Public Domain book with a 1868 map of India by an India-based uploader? They might share if there has been a request from MeitY as well. Thanks,

-- Ooligan (talk) 20:58, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

On this map it's unclear to me what the difference is between "Pakistani territory claimed by India" and "Indian territory claimed by Pakistan". Current control? I feel like this phrasing is not sufficiently precise in that case. Loki (talk) 00:31, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

It's the difference between the land that India actually controls and the land they claim. The red line is the de facto border, the hashed areas are what India and Pakistan respectively claim. (Same on the east side of the mpa, with China). Obviously it wouldn't be NPOV of us to draw these maps according to either country's wishes, but it would be perfectly reasonable for us to colour the claims differently and make note of the dispute (as we do on most of these articles). – bradv 00:42, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

I would suggest changing it to "Pakistan-controlled territory claimed by India". Unfortunately, this overflows the existing legend, so it will take more significant editing of the SVG to fix. AntiCompositeNumber (talk) 02:09, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

I agree with this. Loki (talk) 04:24, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

I concur, "X territory claimed by Y" is at best confusing and at worst it implies actual ownership aligns with the current line of control. "X-controlled territory claimed by Y" would work, but if space is an issue then I believe it can be shortened to "territory claimed by Y" without altering the meaning or understandability. The line of control itself implies the territory is claimed and controlled by the other side. Alsee (talk) 06:42, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

It would be appreciated if when citing the desire for transparency that the WMF could give a fuller picture of this. It is presented here as a new incident which was merely a "known potential issue" in the past, however it includes Bhutan–India relations for which we have news reports of previous official communication to the WMF. It would be clarifying to know what specifically the WMF means by "the border dispute" in this request to the community. As the WMF has carried out a manual review, it would also be appreciated to know what considerations were taken when doing so. For example, did this review take a similar perspective that it would be "beneficial in providing due weight in context" to add into the maps and captions notes about related disputes? It was particularly eye-catching to see China–India relations included in the manually reviewed list of pages "where mention of the dispute may be beneficial". I hope the WMF takes another look at this situation. CMD (talk) 00:42, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

The complaint about China–India relations is interesting, as both of the India/China maps on that page seem to be drawn in India's favour, with no mention of China's claim. (It doesn't mention India's claim on Pakistan's land either, but if we're going to fix one we're going to fix the other too.) – bradv 00:46, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I don't see a way this can be resolved that does not involve Wikipedia being blocked in India. Deleting all maps that show the territory that India actually controls is simply too fundamental a compromise of the neutral point of view to seriously stomach. The only way I could seriously see this being resolved without Wikipedia being blocked is having the maps replaced with one's the Indian government approves of only when viewed from India, like Google maps does it, but the technical implementation of that seems challenging. Hemiauchenia (talk) 01:24, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

The only way I could seriously see this being resolved without Wikipedia being blocked is having the maps replaced with one's the Indian government approves of only when viewed from India, like Google maps does it, but the technical implementation of that seems challenging. I believe the technical implementation already exists (it is often used for banners), but I would oppose that as an NPOV violation.

However, what may be acceptable is for us to include a banner on those pages, viewable only in India, that reads something along the lines of "The Indian government has required us to inform you that the maps included in this article reflect control, and do not reflect India's claimed territory". However, I don't think that would be necessary - I doubt India will actually block Wikipedia. BilledMammal (talk) 01:40, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

This sounds like a headache, but not for us. I'd say the less the community engages with this sort of Dr. Evil style blackmail the better. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 01:45, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

As someone who's often critical of the WMF, I have to give props for how this is being handled. If the government of India has an issue with our content, they are more than welcome to make a post here at the neutral point of view noticeboard like anyone else. If the government of India blunders its way into blocking Wikipedia over a few maps, then I hope the people of India will loudly oppose such a decision and see it quickly reversed. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 06:09, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Could we just create a new template warning people that a given map might be illegal in some countries like we already have for communist symbolism etc? User1042💬✒️ 12:01, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

If we do, it would be better to do alongside other countries with similar laws. CMD (talk) 13:05, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Not all of them, in my opinion. I believe that the Russian territorial claims against Ukraine (including Crimea) are just as good as ISIL's in the context of widely documented war crimes of such exceptional intensity, that now the ICC has an arrest warrant for Putin: in said case, there is no case for a territorial dispute warning template. --Minoa (talk) 07:08, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes. I meant a universal template, like we have for communist symbolism. User1042💬✒️ 20:02, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

I agree thanks for this thoughtful summary and reasonable stance by the WMF. I suggest we review it and discuss ad nauseum simply to prove that we can before taking any action, IF any is taken. Andre🚐 17:50, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

I remember an earlier similar thing with some media coverage[2], it was discussed at Talk:Bhutan–India relations and other places. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:47, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

• Inquiry is the complaint at India about File:Political map of India EN.svg (where the in-image caption is perhaps less clear than desired, but seems broadly fair), or other images such as File:South Asian Language Families.png (which makes no attempt to convey a disputed border). Walt Yoder (talk) 15:21, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

  Good question, thanks for flagging! I believe it's both, and I think that presents a good example of the varying quality of the list they sent us, given that one is at least related to the political borders while the other is quite clearly different. Jrogers (WMF) (talk) 15:41, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

  If they refuse to say what they object to and/or want, I must assume they are hoping Wikipedia will self-censor to maximalist demands (that is, have maps that show all India's claimed territory as indisputably Indian) -- which is unreasonable and will not get consensus. At a policy level, I don't think there is anything that can be done other than a talk-page banner (which I will support if somebody else proposes it). Walt Yoder (talk) 23:37, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

• Comment Due to the way Wikipedia works, it will always contain errors. That's not something we can change. I'm not inclined to start caving in to demands from this government or that. I'm more sympathetic to India than I am to (say) Russia, which doubtless thinks we are breaking numerous laws with our coverage of the war. But I think we have to draw a line in the sand here. Adoring nanny (talk) 17:28, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

  Also worth mention is India's Democratic backsliding. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 04:29, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

  Wikipedia will always contain errors, especially if the errors can be verified and the facts can't. That's following our policies and guidelines. But that doesn't excuse, for me, our obligation to try to get things right nor does it excuse our obligation to uphold a neutral point of view. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 08:49, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

• @Jrogers (WMF): Other issues aside: Having File:States of India (Survey of India).pdf is good, but have the govt. of India released it as an SVG, or better as a data file? If not, please could you ask your contact there to do so? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:23, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

  Noted. We can try, though the Survey of India themselves have been the slowest responding part (like, it might take them months to respond to a request). If anyone want to make it into an SVG, please feel free to do so. Jrogers (WMF) (talk) 15:33, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

  @Jrogers (WMF) @Pigsonthewing: I've converted the PDF to File:States of India (Survey of India).svg, but it's not great quality because of the limitations of the original file. If anyone can create a better version, I'm absolutely fine with mine being uploaded over. — Huntster (t @ c) 20:29, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

• I presume there is no problem about detecting the country of origin when nothing like VPN is being used. For those cases I fully support a country specific banner appearing for specific pages when they are displayed. Plus an option for people to display all banners if they wish. And if Russia wants such a banner for bits of Ukraine being displayed in Russia, well I've no objection and we can all see what they are saying if we want. NadVolum (talk) 08:11, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
• I don't think a reader-facing warning is appropriate here. No objections to someone making a template about this as information, and dropping it on associated talk pages - then future editors can decide if they want to adjust things or not. In some cases, something may be inaccurate and this could spurn legitimate improvements. — xaosflux ^Talk 14:44, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

  We would also need a new Commons template similar to c:Template:Georgian boundaries (for misprepresentations of Georgia's borders) to be attached to Commons files. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 06:15, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

  I concur with xaosflux's perspective on this. I don't believe reader-facing changes should be implemented but when appropriate I don't see issues with editor-facing notices/templates that garner community support here. — Ixtal ^{( T / C )} ⁂ Non nobis solum. 12:52, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

• We should seek always to act reasonably, and where we think the edit request is reasonable we should act upon it. In my view, border disputes are usually notable, and I think should be communicated in a proportionate manner (e.g. outlining or shading territory on a map, plus a key). It would not be proportionate to have a big flashy warning about a map being illegal in India. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 08:31, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
• Do nothing, oppose warning/banner WP:Risk disclaimer already states "Please be aware that any information you may find in Wikipedia may be inaccurate, misleading, dangerous, unethical, or illegal" - why would a country-specific banner even be necessary? Wikipedia has a track record of ignoring petulant bullshit from authoritarian states, no reason for this to change now. Satellizer el Bridget ^(Talk) 04:03, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
• No banner Per Satellizer. And I'd like to see 'em try and block access to Wikimedia (which...is what their mortal enemy Pakistan did briefly in February. Heavy Water (talk • contribs) 22:14, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
• Support tailored notices I don't like pandering to nationalist interests or censorship at all, but the fact is there will be cases where Wikipedia isn't being neutral, or possibly even correct. The easiest way to avoid angering governments which practice censorship (which in reality is virtually all governments) is to say something to the effect that there are such disputes and the position of the country from which one is viewing Wikipedia may be different than what is represented. Maybe something like Wikipedia contains user-generated content and [national borders depicted on this page] may not match the official position of [the Indian government]. No harm done. If we can preserve access to Wikipedia for millions or billions of people by doing so, that is a very small price. This would not need to be done for governments which don't even give us the chance. —DIYeditor (talk) 02:59, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
• Do nothing, oppose notice. I've thought about it and I don't think we should normalize governments looking for a way to add warnings to Wikipedia. Andre🚐 03:02, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose banners and tailored notices. The risk disclaimer describes what exactly the Indian government found - that it may be illegal. Almost every piece of content in this project can be deemed illegal according to one or the other. We put the disclaimer at the bottom of every page just for that. Anyone who thinks some content is erroneous are welcome to edit - which is of course our daily business here. Re the 81 urls, I don't see anything the WMF should do in particular. — DaxServer (t · m · e · c) 15:37, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
• Do nothing, oppose banners and tailored notices per se - I agree that we are stepping onto a very slippery slope once we give in to the entreaties of one particular government, no matter how politely requested and how reasonable the negotiations. There are almost 200 countries in the world, many of which have border conflicts with their neighbors. Of course, most of these are very low-level and are unlikely to lead to demands to WMF and the various Wikipedias, but I can think of a least a dozen that are festering and could very well result in the same kind of requests that India is now making. It would be impossible to please all parties if we start on that path, so the only reasonable course of action is to continue doing exactly what we are doing, using the best possible sources and citing everything with reference to them; in other words, our normal commitment to neutrality. If a country such as India cuts off access to WMF entities for their citizens, that would be a blow, not to us so much as to those people, and it is not too much to think that in democratic countries such decisions would be overturned by public response. In any event, our choice is clear, at least to me. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:16, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

• To clarify a bit: if an area on a map is disputed between two countries, that should be indicated on the map itself, and in the caption, especially if it's not indicated on the map - but as a matter of fact, supported by refs, not as a matter of policy, whether set by the community or the Foundation. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:37, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

• I would agree to this request because it's asking us to do the right thing. Where borders are disputed, we should be informing readers of this fact, without taking a stance about which version of the border is correct.—S Marshall T/C 09:57, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
• For the sake of NPOV, if we act to acknowledge India's objections to a map we ought to solicit and note the viewpoint of the entity on the other side of the border in question. Cabayi (talk) 10:38, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
• This is a very odd venue for a discussion where the goal was for the "community" was to be consulted... Not sure how many Wikipedians have the NPOV noticeboard page on their watchlist, and I only learned about it through asking a question in the Signpost. Suggest moving to the village pump and also prasing it as an RFC.  — Amakuru (talk) 14:30, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
  • There is already a note on WP:CENT. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:22, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
• I think it is a reasonable request to include the fact that there is a border dispute in cases where relevant. Afterall this isn't false and only conveys a WP:NPOV to the readers. —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 18:53, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

  In isolation that might be a reasonable request, but it doesn't gel with the list of articles and images presented in the master list and in the manual list, many of which already do this. CMD (talk) 15:26, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

• Question for Legal @Jrogers (WMF): would adding templates similar to c:Template:Georgian boundaries or c:Template:Chinese boundaries on the description pages of the affected files satisfy MeitY's request? – Teratix ₵ 14:11, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

  Good question. I think the answer is a solid maybe. I think in context of the way that Wikipedia and Wikimedia Commons hosts files, one could make a compelling argument that this satisfies their request for notification about the issue to users. On the other hand, based on my conversations with them so far, they have been very focused on the specific URLs they identified and changes to the file pages require a clickthrough. This did come up on Commons as well and my recommendation there is the same I'd make here: it's helpful for us in negotiating, both now and in future, so I'd encourage these kind of filepage warnings if they don't cause other problems. - Jrogers (WMF) (talk) 16:01, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

  @Teratix @Jrogers (WMF) as I noted on Commons, MediaViewer can show small "non-copyright restriction" icons. (Something like a quarter of those URLs were MediaViewer URLs so presumably that's something the ministry cares about.) It's not much but it should be uncontroversial as we already use it for all kinds of images which are illegal in some Western country. Tgr (talk) 20:12, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

• Something seems deeply wrong here. According to these statistics, India, a country of 1.3 billion people, accounts for about 5% of Wikipedia's total pageviews. That's on par with the UK. The outcome of this discussion might play a large part in determining whether or not these users have continuing unimpeded access to Wikipedia. Can you imagine if access to Wikipedia in the UK hinged on the outcome of a discussion like this? There would be dozens if not hundreds of users weighing in within hours. It would be bigger than WP:FRAM. Why is this discussion so comparatively small and slow?

This is not a Russia scenario where the requests are obviously incompatible with neutrality and free access. There's no request to delete content or rewrite it to support India's claims over all others. The request is to note disputed areas on certain maps are, well, disputed and don't reflect India's view. That doesn't seem blatantly unreasonable or contrary to core values. It's true there's problems to be negotiated, but why are some reflexively saying "do nothing" instead of looking for solutions?

Why such a lack of self-awareness about the fact that knowing about and participating in this discussion means we are really, really, really weird people?

Am I missing something here? – Teratix ₵ 15:07, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

A few things are missed here. Firstly, much of the , content, even in the manual list, already mentions the disputes, so the calls for change here are calls to keep doing what we are already doing. Secondly, "there's no request to...rewrite it to support India's claims over all others" seems wrong at a close reading, especially in light of the first point. There are a few different border disputes, but the only one that seems to be being raised is the one where a mention would reinforce the Indian claims but not others. A key tell is Jrogers wording "where mention of the dispute may be beneficial". They did not reply to my question about what they meant by that, but the most likely reading I can see is that "the dispute" (note the singular) refers to the Kashmir conflict. Highlighting only that dispute, which coincidentally is the major one where India does not control all the territory, would of course push the Government of India's claims relative to its neighbouring governments. Finally, it seems to be missed in many comments that this is not a novel topic of discussion. The community has already discussed such content, in many locations over many many pages, for pretty much Wikipedia's entire existence. The community has felt the need to create WP:ARBIPA, because of having to deal with these issues. To say people are suggesting to "do nothing instead of looking for solutions" is to ignore how much has been done on a topic that has been on the ARBCOM-level radar since at least 2007. CMD (talk) 15:43, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

much of the content, even in the manual list, already mentions the disputes, so the calls for change here are calls to keep doing what we are already doing If this is already done for "much of the content", why not extend this practice?

The community has already discussed such content, in many locations over many many pages, for pretty much Wikipedia's entire existence. Sure, but an Indian government threat to block Wikipedia entirely seems to be a relevant new context.

Highlighting only that dispute, which coincidentally is the major one where India does not control all the territory, would of course push the Government of India's claims relative to its neighbouring governments. Sure, so might there be another solution? Could we note these neighbouring governments' relevant competing claims as well? – Teratix ₵ 16:03, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

We have standard widespread practices, I merely hedge as I have not reviewed the entirety of the random list of articles. The Indian government threat to block Wikipedia is not new. We could show all disputes everywhere all the time sure, but I doubt that's the desired outcome, it's generally not what external reliable sources do, and it doesn't really help readers. CMD (talk) 16:16, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

• Since we seem to be moving to bold !votes. Use maps indicating disputed territory, where appropriate. Oppose banners et al. Both on any political/diplomatic map, and the regions of India maps, using maps marking the disputed territory as just that would seem appropriate. WMF Legal has thankfully narrowed down the group for consideration from the random, incorrect, and jumbled mix of URLs already. I concur with the views above that if it becomes known that we will add regional banners noting things as disagreeing with the government we're going to get these requests all the bloody time. Nosebagbear (talk) 15:33, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
• No notices, no changes. Nothing good can come of this. Heck, I find those Georgian and Chinese notices offensive. Thanks for letting me know not to put any maps involving those two countries on Commons, what with the legal threat that they entail. --Golbez (talk) 06:28, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

  In fact, I'm curious, is there a discussion that led to the Georgian and Chinese notices? Was this approved and/or required by foundation legal? --Golbez (talk) 06:30, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

  I don't know the history of the Chinese one, but the Georgian one was a unilateral creation by a user with a history of creating/editing maps to show a particular set of borders. CMD (talk) 07:21, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

  If I were still on Commons I'd be starting a discussion about how the mere existence of these templates is an affront to our philosophy, but. Not my circus. --Golbez (talk) 14:10, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

• I would support the addition of tailored notices explaining that the border is disputed. This is reasonably in line with NPOV as well as what appears to be a precedent set with Georgia and China. It would also help avoid 5% of Wikipedia users being cut off. Stifle (talk) 10:05, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

  I would disagree that it's in line with NPOV as most NPOV issues don't involve a government threatening imprisonment. --Golbez (talk) 17:02, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support template/oppose notices/oppose no change. I disagree strongly with the principle of "If Indian govt has a problem they should approach us via NPOV noticeboard" argument by Thebiguglyalien. By liasing with WMF, Meity is explicitly trying to engage with the Wikipedia community, there's no need to force bureaucracy instead of discussing the arguments themselves. I also dislike CactiStaccingCrane's obvious WP:BAIT, and would recommend users to consider the request on its own merits without trying to draw political non-sequiturs.

On the same note, I am concerned by the number of editors who feel hungry to get Wikipedia banned in India and would rather play a game of chicken instead of policy based discussion.

I think no-change is not the move, simply because some of the request is either already covered by current policy (or can have policy adjusted if the request is reasonable enough). I oppose banners or similar, I support templates to the style of c:Template:Georgian boundaries on non political maps (like File:Indus river.svg). If the map itself is about political borders, current policy dictates we should indicate it on the map already (so no policy change needed).

Disclaimer: I am an Indian editor. (Though that shouldn't matter for WP:INVOLVED or similar).

Soni (talk) 16:58, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

• I've added a disputed tag for all but one of the files on Commons (and an edit request for that one). I'd support tailored notices per WP:DUE. Frostly (talk) 03:15, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
  • I've processed your edit request. Stifle (talk) 08:16, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
  • I have reverted, as the tag was both incorrect (factual accuracy has not been disputed, POV has) and out of line with what is supported here. It's also blind tagging that makes no sense. This map, this map, and especially this map doesn't show the border dispute? Really? CMD (talk) 01:29, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
• I think that we should limit our actions to what would be a reasonable response to something like an edit request on a semi-protected page. It's perfectly reasonable for us to make sure that maps that depict disputed borders, anywhere on the planet, are presented in a manner that is encyclopedic and NPOV. So it's appropriate to mark disputed territories as such, taking into account both sides in the border dispute. If somebody like the Indian government makes us aware of a map that they perceive as unfair, we should examine it for NPOV and correct it as we see fit, but not necessarily as they see fit. We seem to be doing this now, and we should make an effort to improve on it whenever a flawed map is brought to our attention. And I'm fine with telling the Indian government that we are doing this. But I'm disinclined to go beyond that, as it would become a sort of special pleading for some geographic areas and not others. So I'd stay away from implementing things like banners or special notices. Imagining a hypothetical in which we get blocked in India, I think WMF Legal could ask them what specific maps are the problem, and we could deal with them as I just described, and India might just accept that as a good response from us, and that could be a sensible way to resolve the conflict. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:26, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

• Do nothing, oppose any changes Per Andrevan and DaxServer. If this request is accepted, it may set a dangerous precedent and seriously undermine Wikipedia's neutrality. Quirino il Grande (talk) 18:39, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

• Do nothing- no changes in response to this request --

A "slippery slope" as high as Chomolungma.

India under Narendra Modi will not risk the negative political ramifications of blocking Wikipedia or the Commons.wikimedia within India. If this was serious threat leading to blocking Wikipedia and/ or the Commons, it would have come from Minister of External Affairs (India), instead of a new agency looking to score internal political points and potential increased influence within GOI (Government of India). See also, Beyond My Ken above and other "Do nothing" or "no changes" cautionary comments.

India and China have a many decades old boundary dispute. 100's of kilometers of these boundaries were demarcated when Tibet was a defacto independent nation from 1913 to 1951 with the 13th Dalai Lama as the undisputed (among Tibetans) Head of government. This border "dispute" came into question after India's Independence and the forceful annexation of Tibet by the People's Republic of China in the early 1950's.

So, does the Wikimedia Foundation and it's associated projects want to be used as a tool in these complex international disputes world-wide? India requests this year- China requests next year. Other countries, other years. A handful of disputed maps will become 100's of disputed maps. Objections over current maps will inevitably become objections over historic maps, like this 1864 map [3] published in the United States.

Historical Indo-Chinese border maps will be effected, because current maps are based on previous maps and historic documents.

For example, the modern India-China boundary dispute is partly based on historic boundary maps printed during the three party (Tibet, Great Britain and China) 1914 Simla Accord. This is the historic basis for much of India's Himalayan national boundaries today. Are there any objections by one party to this agreement- the Central Tibetan Administration and the Nobel Peace Prize laureate, the 14th Dalai Lama, (since 1959 is still a refugee in India) about India's and China's boundaries? Are there any objections by the second party to this agreement, United Kingdom? Or are there any objections by the third party to this agreement, China? This "slippery slope" example illustrates that "What's past is prologue" here memorialized [4] in front of the United States National Archives and Records Administration." "Say cheese"- few smiles in this rare 1913 photograph of the three party (Tibetan, British, Chinese) Simla Accord boundary negotiators posing here:https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Simla_Conference_1913.jpg

Many countries have border disputes, but there is only one Wikimedia Foundation. --Ooligan (talk) 21:47, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

• We definitely shouldn't be adding notices to articles or images that governments don't agree with some/all of their content. This request reflects poorly on the Indian Government, which has a track record of seeking to censor international sources on the country. It's a matter for editors of relevant articles to decide what maps to use and how they should be captioned, per usual editing and (if necessary) dispute resolution processes - which have a strong emphasis on encouraging the use of reliable sources and presenting differences in these sources accurately. Nick-D (talk) 23:38, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
• Defer to Wikimedia Commons, whom I notified earlier in this discussion. They do use legal warning templates[1][2] for some of their images, but it is not consistent. I think it makes sense for them to discuss it among themselves and decide what their strategy should be going forward. The thread I created at their village pump has fizzled out, so perhaps someone (Jrogers (WMF)?) should post the issue to their administrators' noticeboard. Hope this helps. –Novem Linguae (talk) 23:46, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
• In regard to file-pages on Commons or other language wikis, they should be handled by those communities.

  In regard to maps appearing in Wikipedia articles, in general they should show each side's claims in a reasonably clear and unbiased manner. For example File:Political_map_of_India_EN.svg has unclear or misleading descriptors, as discussed above my myself and others. It appears that File:Indus_river.svg fails to show the disputed claims at all. These and other maps should be updated as soon as practical, as soon as anyone finds, creates, or provides an improved map.

  Per WP:General_disclaimer, related disclaimers[5][6][7] and WP:No_disclaimers I oppose inserting "notices" or similar into articles.

  In regard to geolocating readers and trying to serve different article-content to different countries, I do not believe the Wikimedia software supports that capability at this time. I would oppose developing such a capability.

  In regard to the WMF, thank you. It appears that this has been handled quite well.

  In regard to any Indian government employees who might receive this message, we thank you for any content you are willing to share with us and we welcome anyone who points out any error or unclear content in Wikipedia. However for whatever it's worth, anything that sounds like a "threat" or "demand" may slow or discourage action from our community of volunteer editors, and you might want to pass that up to higher ranked officials and politicians. We will firmly ignore any threat or demand may by China or Pakistan to advance their territorial claims against India, and similarly we will ignore any threats or demands made by India. Our goal is to accurately and neutrally present whatever dispute may exist. See Censorship of Wikipedia for an extensive list of countries that have blocked or threatened-to-block Wikipedia, and all the times it has failed or backfired. Not only would such a block diminish educational, economic, and scientific opportunities for Indian citizens, it would prevent Indian citizens from incorporating India's perspectives and interests into our articles. That would undermine India's political, cultural, and international interests on the world stage. We accept India's freedom to do so, and it would sadden us for about 5 minutes. Alsee (talk) 10:15, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

  @Alsee, FYI, "India engineers are helping to keep Wikipedia inclusive"

  https://web.archive.org/web/20220927231652/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/india-engineers-are-helping-to-keep-wikipedia-inclusive/articleshow/93893944.cms

  Quote from August 2022 article from the Times of India-

  "INDIANS LOVE TO WIKI

  Readers in India visit Wikipedia more than 750 million times each month, the fifth highest number of views from any country

  India recently became the second largest English wikipedia contributor country after the US

  Over 65,000 volunteer contributors in India - a fifth of the global number - add, edit, and update articles on Wikipedia and Wikimedia projects every month

  Wikipedias are available in 25 languages spoken in India

  Hindi Wikipedia ranked #55, with 140,000 articles and 575,000 users

  Tamil Wikipedia ranked #61, with 130,000 articles and 179,000 users

  Telugu Wikipedia ranked #81, with 70,000 articles and 99,000 users" --

  Ooligan (talk) 20:52, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

• No Change per Ooligan. Local t/p consensus works fine. TrangaBellam (talk) 22:08, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

• Do nothing in response to any request threatening a block of Wikipedia. Rather, invite the Indian government to participate in the Wikipedia consensus-building process, by making proposals for sourced and neutral qualifiers with respect to any map in a RfC or on individual talk pages. Acceding to this request would incentivize other governments to threaten Wikipedia with blocks to get their way, and it would violate our policy WP:OWN. Our content is decided by editors, not governments. Sandstein 20:19, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
• Do nothing -- India does not get to tell us what their version of reality is and what is right. Thankfully, Wikimedia servers are hosted in the US and so do not need to comply with these types of laws, as they'd be flatly unconstitutional here. Hopefully the Indian Government will change tact. --Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 22:29, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
• Support the request by the Indian government in one way. The decision to include or not include notices about disputed maps does not rest in the hands of this board; it rests in the hand of the editors editing any particular article and their discussions on talk page. Wikimedia Foundation should leave a notice on the talk page of each of the shortlisted maps/articles in contention informing the editors of this issue and encouraging them to discuss whether a change is needed or not. Editors here do understand that we cannot dismiss the Indian government's request purely because it's a government request (or under the misunderstanding that we all should stand proud having defied a government). In that light, this should be sent to the articles in question. Thanks, Lourdes 06:29, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

  I wonder if starting a bunch of individual talk page discussions about this would violate the spirit of WP:NOLEGALTHREATS. There are definitely laws we want to comply with, such as copyright, child protection, etc. But it sounds like India has made something illegal that is normally protected under freedom of speech. They may possibly be using legal pressure to try to win a content dispute. –Novem Linguae (talk) 10:23, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

• Weak comment, as I have only read the discussion and not the articles, but we should treat this as we do any other legitimate content debate. The proposer should be irrelevant – why should Wikipedia care if it's the Indian government or one of their 1.4 billion citizens? We care about building the best encyclopedia possible, not that. WP:NLT is worth considering, but we shouldn't deliberately ignore correcting incorrect info because it was mentioned alongside a legal threat, if that's what this is determined to be. From WP:NLT: The aim is to prevent legal threats being posted on Wikipedia, not to keep bad content from being fixed. Admins should encourage an aggrieved user to identify factual errors in the article at issue; a link to Wikipedia:Contact us/Article problem/Factual error (from subject) may be appropriate. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 00:43, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

  It is odd that the idea that this is somehow an ignored or overlooked issue keeps coming up. This is a very well-known issue, that editors are very familiar with. The question at hand is very well known, the position of the Indian government is very well known, it has been raised many times before. The overall topic has emerged enough times that we have an ARBCOM regime dedicated to the topic area. Talk:India has a related FAQ. This isn't even the first Indian government request on the issue. The only novel item at hand here is the WMF carrying out some sort of manual survey of their own that they have declined to expand on. CMD (talk) 01:20, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

• What action, if any, was taken related to the 2020 "order" by the Government of India's MeitY against Wikipedia?

  See The Wayback Machine =>

  https://web.archive.org/web/20201203081347/https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/govt-orders-wikipedia-to-remove-link-showing-incorrect-map-of-india-sources/article33238465.ece

  Here is an excerpt:

  "The Ministry of Electronics and IT has issued an order under Section 69A of the IT Act, 2000 directing Wikipedia to remove the link, they added. The matter had been flagged by a Twitter user, who highlighted that the Wikipedia page on India-Bhutan relationship had incorrectly depicted the map of Jammu Kashmir, and asked the government to take action. Sources said taking cognizance of the matter, the ministry issued an order on November 27, 2020 directing Wikipedia to remove the map as it violated the territorial integrity and sovereignty of India."

  I requested of @Jrogers (WMF) for a redacted copy(s) of the recent Government of India's communications to the Wikikmedia Foundation, but I have not received a response (see above).

  WMF Legal wrote, "... in 2023, the Indian government’s Ministry of Electronics and Information Technology (MeitY) sent the Foundation several direct complaints about specific maps." (emphasis added)

  -- Ooligan (talk) 07:28, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

  @Ooligan, you can see my attempt at improving our maps at Talk:Bhutan–India relations#Current map. I thought we reached a consensus to show the disputed territories, but I see it has since been reverted to the version which does not show the disputed areas at all, which is unfortunate. Our primary response to any legal complaint or threat should be to ensure our content complies with WP:NPOV. – bradv 22:13, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

• Wikipedia is not censored. Governments especially do not dictate what goes here: our sole job is to build a quality encyclopedia. However, we should err on the side of India in India-China border disputes. Due to modernization, internet access, and likely government efforts, there is a bias towards China in articles involving a Chinese controversy. Chamaemelum (talk) 04:47, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
• Do nothing: While on the one hand it would seem reasonable to at least put notices of the dispute on the map, at what point do we stop? With the many enclaves and exclaves all over the world where countries have similar claims, no matter how outlandish? With China's claim of the nine-dash line, and its somewhat farcical assertion that any waters where there's a Chinese shipwreck is actually Chinese territorial waters? Do we slap warning labels on maps if Islamic State claims Texas tomorrow? (We do not, after all, I believe, have an official WMF ruling as to what entities get to call themselves nation-states or not.) My inclination is to tell them to block and be damned, and see the Streisand effect at work. Ravenswing 11:39, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

  Comment Wikipedia isn't here to censor information or pander to anyone. I'd be ok with a notice on the talk page "This map/the map in this article does not correspond to the view of the Indian government" or something similar, but we aren't here to start redacting information from the wiki because of a government's request. Putting that in an info bar on the main article page would be distracting.

  Frankly if the Indian gov't wants to play hardball, let them. Blocking wikipedia in the country WILL be noticed there and commented upon. WE can't start censoring certain versions of Wiki for certain countries (unlike what Elon did with twitter for Turkey), we're here for everyone. India being the tech-savvy country it is, I'd expect users to simply get a vpn and still use wikipedia anyway. Oaktree b (talk) 22:25, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

  • Link to request to Jrogers_(WMF) talk page to post redacted copies of communications.

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jrogers_(WMF)#NPOV/Noticeboard#Communications_from_government_of_India_to_WMF

  --

  Ooligan (talk) 00:39, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

• No notice: I firmly believe that accommodating the Indian government's request to add tailor-made warnings to captions would create an imbalance of importance in favor of their claim. This could open the floodgates for other countries to do the same, cluttering Wikipedia with subjective warnings that promote their own agendas. Moreover, this request goes against Wikipedia's core principles as it resembles a legal threat and serves as a platform for bolstering their claim. We must remember that Wikipedia is not a soapbox, battleground, or a vehicle for propaganda, advertising, and showcasing. It is an encyclopedia, a reliable source of unbiased information that should remain free from such influences.JETH888 (message) 12:26, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
• Do nothing There is absolutely no justifiable reason to listen to their demands. End of question. :3 F4U (they/it) 00:16, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
• Do nothing - it opens a can of worms if we change anything in a way which favours a governmental request. Doesn't matter which government. We have an international audience and an international contributor base; we have a system based on consensus and should respect that, not some external threat. - Sitush (talk) 19:15, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
• Do nothing. The map concerns the areas called Pakistan-administered Kashmir (Azad Kashmir and Gilgit-Baltistan) and Chinese-administered Kashmir (Aksai Chin). For decades, the current ruling government of India, Bharatiya Janta Party (BJP), frequently said that they will conquer Pakistan-administered Kashmir and Chinese-administered Kashmir.[8][9][10][11] The opposition has fired back BJP over these empty talks.[12][13] Now after ruling for more than 15 years, with 0 territorial gains and territorial losses under their administration, the BJP has decided to force completely uninvolved parties like Wikipedia to modify the map because BJP is more concerned about propaganda gains rather than the reality. Capitals00 (talk) 04:11, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
• In fairness, I don't have a clear sense at all of what they're objecting to. SportingFlyer T·C 20:48, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
• I don't see that this would be a problem on the Commons side. We already have c:Template:Nazi symbol/en because Nazi symbols are banned in Germany. We could make a template for file descriptions doing similar for Indian law regarding maps. I don't see the images being deleted, because it's not related to copyright, and we don't delete other images just because their use is otherwise restricted in a certain jurisdication. GMG^talk 19:43, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Hi everyone, We had a second call with MeitY last week and I wanted to share a short update from it. The main point was good news: we received some greater specificity from them about the sort of information they're looking for. They thought the map at Commons India Naxal affected districts was good and provided the information that they wanted to see to end their complaints. This sort of info including the warning note and the details about the disputed borders obviously wouldn't make sense for many of the links that MeitY sent us and we're still working on trying to help them understand the different types of pages. But for political map files, we at least have confirmation that a page like this would satisfy them and appears to be in line with Commons policy and overall neutral presentation of information. -Jrogers (WMF) (talk) 19:17, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

@Jrogers (WMF): There is a related post on your talk page, dated July 7, awaiting your response. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:08, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Why not? The "do nothing" votes dont seem to be based on anything, really, than "can of worms", "slippery slide", "they wont block us anyway", "block us and see what happens".
Sure, the Indian government isnt going to be banning Wikipedia. That is not, however, a deciding factor on what we should do.
Depicting disputed areas clearly as disputed areas is a clear and obvious change. Not sure why it should not/ can not/ will not be implemented.
As for the slippery slide, we already have notices regarding legal restrictions for several countries, not just for maps but for other restrictions as well. Why should we have different standards for different countries? I dont think there would be issues regarding the technical implementation either.
I agree that our decisions should not be based on what a government tells us to do, but at the same time, just because someone wants to see the change does not imply the change should not be made.
I think the request to clarify the disputed areas is fairly reasonable - and I think we do it poorly as of now - though our implementation may differ slightly with what the request is, depending on our content policies.
I think a similar opinion was echoed by Teratix and others, who correctly pointed out that there is nothing inherently wrong with the proposal, though we may differ on the exact ways in which we implement it. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 08:45, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

---

Krdza85 looks to be a conflict of interest editor or at the very least heavily biased in favor or Effortel. They were notified about NPOV at User_talk:Krdza85 and remade their edits after I undid them. RFZYNSPY ^talk 05:53, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

---

RS in 2'nd para of the article Blasphemy in Pakistan says, ".. From 1947 to 2021, 89 Pakistanis were "extra-judicially killed over blasphemy accusations".^[1][2][3] This sentence besides ref, takes in to account referenced information from rest of the article and article 'List of blasphemy cases in Pakistan' .." There is some thing called Barelvi movement in South Asia otherwise thought to be peaceful but when comes to anti-blasphemy posturing is believed to take extreme positions as per RS. Competitive sectarianism and politics in the name of anti-blasphemy activism as per RS media reports, intellectuals and academic studies as root cause of extreme posturing in Pakistan. Good number of academic reliable sources are likely to be available to expand but minimum mention also got deleted from the article Barelvi movement. Since I did not see much point in restoring the same without enough eyes on the article, I just let that go.

When I received t/p intimation about Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion#Sar tan se juda (Urdu slogan) then I realized first following related sourced content has been deleted a year before with summary ".. Removing entire section - extraneous waffle: threatening language in Pakistani politics is not the subject .." If reliable sources are there about Pakistani socio-religious-politics having such angle, not only various Pakistani media persons admitting, the same has been reported in report of TRT world the official Turkish news agency and though dailytimes won't be RS on it's own but European parliament report may be primary source but very relevant.

Here is one primary source in Roaman Urdu page 76 talking about 'Sar Tan Se Juda' (Search on google books)

• Hussamul Haramain (Roman Urdu). N.p.,  Abde Mustafa Official .

Idk how this is a issue not to be covered in the article Beheading in Islam

Idk what to reply to obscurantism @ Talk:Beheading in Islam#Removal of "In Khutbah, sermons and protest sloganeering" section. As of now I shall not persue WP:DR on my own too much for lack of enough uninvolved users aware of the underlined topics. We all know Islam is religion of truth, peace and moderation but death threats received by a moderate professor of Islamic studies -covered by reliable sources- would not have space on Wikipedia sounds ironical. It would not be surprising to see some enlightened defense of these deletions. But whether these deletions are helpful in keeping encyclopedia readers informed is for deletionists to think and others if the come across this message to give some time to study and navigate the issues in due course. Bookku (talk) 12:54, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

---

I've had a series of reverts with this user who gave me two disruptive editing warnings, for two edits I made to address the neutrality of the lead in Dakhla, Western Sahara (the latest revert).

The user then started attcking me saying "You know very well what I'm talking about (the sources about the occupation)" and "Don't play games with me"while also claiming that "(It's an undisputed fact that is used throughout wikipedia.)" that the Western Sahara is "occupied" despite the fact that the whole place is called a disputed territory.

Its worth noting that nowhere in my edits did I say that the place is not occupied or disputed, and I actually expanded the infobox to say that the place is claimed by both Morocco and Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic, as done in the Laayoune, another disputed city in the Sahara.

I think the user doesn't have a NPOV when it comes to the Western Sahara conflict, as 1. I feel that my edits were appropriate, 2. The reaction was personal, 3. Almost all of the user's top edits revolve around the Algeria, Berbers, Morocco and the Westen Sahara conflict. Vyvagaba (talk) 14:49, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Take it to wp:ani. Slatersteven (talk) 14:53, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

---

The article claims that "most scientists" believe the zoonosis theory. This claim is not supported verbatim by any of the sources cited. This claim is an editorialised opinion and thus does not belong on the page. Despite repeated requests on the talk page, the editors have not agreed to change this. 2601:602:8200:4A10:5D7E:ADB:A176:35AA (talk) 13:15, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Without reviewing the sources, on the surface, I agree with your interpretation of WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV - "Avoid the temptation to rephrase biased or opinion statements with weasel words, for example, "Many people think John Doe is the best baseball player." Which people? How many? ("Most people think" is acceptable only when supported by at least one published survey.)" Denaar (talk) 13:22, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Sources for "most scientists" would include [42], [43]. There's more too but that's clearly in sources. Masem (t) 14:10, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

WP:Wikivoice: "Wikipedia aims to describe disputes, but not engage in them." The first source doesn't provide what their source of that statement is. "AP states that most scientists..." would be attributing it to AP, rather then using Wikipedia's voice implying it's a fact, not an opinion. The second one mentions their source is US Government Intelligence report. Not sure that really applies as "most scientists" as that's suggesting people outside the intelligence community. Nature, a science journal, states it's a debate in the same year the AP article was published, enough that WHO is sponsoring an investigation: [44]. In a followup from 2023, the investigation is ongoing: [45] and it states "The World Health Organization has said that while zoonotic spillover remains the likeliest point of origin, the lab leak theory cannot be ruled out. WHO has said its investigation will continue until a definitive origin is identified." Describing the debate would not be using general terms like "scientists say" but attributing the opinions. It is much more neutral to say "While Who hasn't ruled it out, they still support that zoonotic spillover remains the likeliest point of origin" then use Wikivoice and say "Zoonotic spillover is the likeliest point of origin". Denaar (talk) 15:27, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Whether or not most scientists believe a certain explanation of some phenomenon, such as the origin of a pandemic, is a factual matter. If reliable sources say that most do, then that can be stated in wikivoice just like any other fact that's reliably sourced. NightHeron (talk) 18:00, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

But that's not what the WP guidelines say. It doesn't say "if sources use poor language like "most scientists say" then you can say it to. It says the opposite - and gives an example "Most people think" is acceptable only when supported by at least one published survey. Not "because a reliable source said so". In this case, the guideline is saying we can only say "most..." when we have a survey of scientists, that can be expanded in the body, which can be reviewed for it's methodology - not because a newspaper or two printed it. Denaar (talk) 22:28, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

You're misinterpreting. Wikipedia can and does make statements about what most scientists believe when appropriate. We have a section specifically on this WP:RS/AC in the reliable sources guideline. MrOllie (talk) 21:45, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Yep. There may be a better way to express academic consensus, but this isn't a bad one. XOR'easter (talk) 21:59, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

It is not a neutral one though. Since many reliable sources clearly mention that no scientific consensus exists, it definitely comes across as an editorial decision to mention one and not the other. 2601:602:8200:4A10:F96A:153A:39E4:E45D (talk) 05:04, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Also, if the intention is to express scientific consensus, then the best way to do that is by explicitly mentioning scientific consensus. 2601:602:8200:4A10:F96A:153A:39E4:E45D (talk) 05:16, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Sources indicate that relevant experts are heavily represented by one side of the debate. As others have said, there may be more felicitous ways of saying this, but it's pretty clear from the sources that scientists who have direct expertise in this subject have made strong arguments as to why one hypothesis is favored over the other. jps (talk) 14:57, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

False. Multiple experts disagree with the claims of the small set of scientists you repeatedly cite. 2601:602:8200:4A10:E4B7:9C47:38D2:4C42 (talk) 07:47, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

I don't think this is going anywhere. Can someone please point me to what the next step should be? This is a clear violation of NPOV and no one out here wants to fix this. 2601:602:8200:4A10:E4B7:9C47:38D2:4C42 (talk) 07:49, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

There is no reason to qualify the Associated Press saying "most scientists" with "According to the Associated Press...". That would be weasel wording. (For a more recent source saying "most scientists" verbatim, there's this.) XOR'easter (talk) 22:03, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Both sources are making the statement in their "factual record" voice, meaning it is not opinion and thus they do not need to be sourced. Expecting us to do more is pentantic and unnecessary. Masem (t) 00:10, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

But there are plenty of RSes that say there is no scientific consensus. These point of views get rejected by editors even when they are part of a peer reviewed commentary [1]. It should be easy to point to a review paper that states "most scientists" believe the zoonotic theory. That is the standard set for assessing consensus. It has not been reached so the editors seem to be using "most scientists" to get around that. In doing so they are selectively choosing sources that agree while leaving out sources that mention very clearly that there is no scientific consensus. This by definition is violation of NPOV. 2601:602:8200:4A10:CD43:1025:9B76:226B (talk) 20:53, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

The thing is, "Most" is a weasel word - it's the kind of poor writing we shouldn't be copying, but watching out for. We have a template for it, a MOS about it, etc. That's why the bar is so high, if a reporter says "most people..." we have to assume it's a weasel word, not that the author found extensive research and forgot to reference it. If they have a source and reference it (like a survey), then we can start to consider it might not be a weasel word but accurate. Denaar (talk) 14:10, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

I'd happily see it change to "the clear majority view amongst scientists" or similar, I'm sure it would be supported by sources. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 21:26, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

If many reliable sources say that then please do but plenty of reliable sources already say "no scientific consensus exists". I think that is a very reasonable viewpoint to add. Without adding that and while only keeping the "most scientists" part, the article violates NPOV I am afraid. 2601:602:8200:4A10:F96A:153A:39E4:E45D (talk) 05:11, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

You seem to have mistaken neutrality and WP:NPOV. The Wikipedia policy is to neutrally reflect what is published by reliable sources, weighted by those sources. So if the majority of sources say one thing that is what appears on Wikipedia. There is no requirement to show both sides, in fact there is policy (WP:FALSEBALANCE) against doing so. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 22:09, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

That's not true though. You are ignoring multiple reliable sources saying the counter.

"Prof van der Merwe believes that scientists had used articles in The Lancet and Nature Medicine to create a “false impression” that a natural spillover origin was scientific consensus." The Telegraph

"There is no consensus on the origin of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2" The Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences

"To be clear, while some circumstantial evidence supports the lab leak theory, there is still no scientific consensus on whether COVID-19 emerged from a research facility, a wet market, or somewhere else." Reason

"The proximal origin of SARS-CoV-2 remains unknown. There are two leading hypotheses: that the virus emerged as a zoonotic spillover from wildlife or a farm animal, possibly through a wet market, in a location that is still undetermined; or that the virus emerged from a research-related incident, during the field collection of viruses or through a laboratory-associated escape. Commissioners held diverse views about the relative probabilities of the two explanations, and both possibilities require further scientific investigation." The Lancet

"There is no scientific consensus on how the virus originated, but researchers believe it could have originated naturally or from an accident in a lab." Politifact

"While Worobey et al. (and their companion paper by Pekar et al. [41]) may dispute these findings, no scientific consensus can yet be presumed." Commentary in ASM mBio

The Australian's investigations writer Sharri Markson: "There is no scientific consensus that COVID-19 has a natural origin" The Australian 2601:602:8200:4A10:E4B7:9C47:38D2:4C42 (talk) 07:37, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

At least the first two are saying that someone disagrees, but I'm not saying everyone agrees but that it's the majority consenus the two are completely different. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 16:51, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

But why mention only "most scientists" while ignoring equally if not more important information that there is no scientific consensus? 2601:602:8200:4A10:89C5:33DC:5168:EB60 (talk) 07:45, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Your False Balance statement doesn't apply given some very prominent scientists find lab origin plausible/more likely - David Relman, Jesse Bloom, David Fisman, Nikolai Petrovsky, Raina MacIntyre, Bernard Roizman, Akiko Iwasaki, Marc Eloit, Richard Ebright, Scott Aaronson, Michael Lin, Angus Dalgleish, Roger Brent, Etienne Decroly, Nick Patterson, David Baltimore, Ian Lipkin, Milton Leitenberg, Scott Gottlieb, Deborah Birx, Roland Wiesendanger, Richard Muller, Brett Giroir, Robert Redfield, Simon Wain-Hobson, Neil Harrison, Steven Salzberg, Francois Balloux, Ravi Gupta, Stuart Newman, Virginie Courtier, Filippa Lentzos, Karol Sikora.

What credentials do Wikipedia editors have to disagree with so many prominent scientists? 2601:602:8200:4A10:89C5:33DC:5168:EB60 (talk) 07:47, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

if you’re going to call someone a scientist, please tell me where they did their PhD and what their dissertation was on, where they did their postdoc and what they specialise in. I’m highly sceptical and I don’t accept anything at face value. AlanS^talk 13:16, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

You are free to flaunt your ignorance or you could jsut do a Google search and read up more about these scientists. 2601:602:8200:4A10:B890:4C4D:21BB:CA2B (talk) 07:58, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

You need to strike that statement immediately. TarnishedPath^talk 09:10, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

WP:WEASEL says, "The examples above are not automatically weasel words....Reliable sources may analyze and interpret, but for editors to do so would violate [policy]." IOW it's fine to say that is what most scientists believe if there is a source for that statement. It would be wrong to include it if it is based on editors' personal judgment. TFD (talk) 22:01, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Which is exactly why such editorialization should not be allowed. Especially when multiple reliable sources say very clearly that no scientific consensus exists. This looks purely like an editorial choice and doesn't reflect well on Wikipedia especially given NPOV is non-negotiable [WP:NPOV]. 2601:602:8200:4A10:F96A:153A:39E4:E45D (talk) 05:02, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

The claim that "no scientific consensus exists" is not really backed up by strong sourcing. jps (talk) 15:12, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Could you please explain how "most scientists" claim has a stronger sourcing than "no scientific consensus" claim?

"Prof van der Merwe believes that scientists had used articles in The Lancet and Nature Medicine to create a “false impression” that a natural spillover origin was scientific consensus." The Telegraph

"There is no consensus on the origin of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2" The Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences

"To be clear, while some circumstantial evidence supports the lab leak theory, there is still no scientific consensus on whether COVID-19 emerged from a research facility, a wet market, or somewhere else." Reason

"The proximal origin of SARS-CoV-2 remains unknown. There are two leading hypotheses: that the virus emerged as a zoonotic spillover from wildlife or a farm animal, possibly through a wet market, in a location that is still undetermined; or that the virus emerged from a research-related incident, during the field collection of viruses or through a laboratory-associated escape. Commissioners held diverse views about the relative probabilities of the two explanations, and both possibilities require further scientific investigation." The Lancet

"There is no scientific consensus on how the virus originated, but researchers believe it could have originated naturally or from an accident in a lab." Politifact

"While Worobey et al. (and their companion paper by Pekar et al. [41]) may dispute these findings, no scientific consensus can yet be presumed." Commentary in ASM mBio

The Australian's investigations writer Sharri Markson: "There is no scientific consensus that COVID-19 has a natural origin" The Australian 2601:602:8200:4A10:E4B7:9C47:38D2:4C42 (talk) 07:33, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

"most scientists" and "no scientific consensus exists" are not conflicting ideas. They can co-exist. Masem (t) 00:11, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Of course, but merely mentioning one but not the other is not a neutral point of view. 2601:602:8200:4A10:89C5:33DC:5168:EB60 (talk) 07:08, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Incorrect, please refer to WP:UNDUE. AlanS^talk 11:55, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Show me the scientific consensus if want to invoke that? 2601:602:8200:4A10:B890:4C4D:21BB:CA2B (talk) 07:46, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Were these your words "China is a messed up place politically, with a government that actively fights against itself and best interests of China when delivering a message because communists are politically immature. It also might be one the most racists nation on earth. The nation would rather preserve face than fix the problems with the system by accountability." in this edit? Or this edit where you called me an ignorant chat bot? TarnishedPath^talk 09:30, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

That's not a peer-reviewed research or review article, that's a piece of commentary by someone totally unqualified on the topic as he only has a master's (a recent (2022) one at that!), is not and doesn't seem to have ever been a research scientist, and got his degree in mathematical evolutionary bio of aging (not epidemiology or virology). JoelleJay (talk) 23:41, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

It's a peer reviewed commentary as confirmed by the author himself [1]. If the editors of the Journal ASM mbio have deemed the arguments strong enough to be published, then I frankly don't see any merits to your argument that is purely based on appeal to authority. 2601:602:8200:4A10:F96A:153A:39E4:E45D (talk) 04:58, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

You're referencing a Twitter thread featuring DRASTIC personalities and other unqualified authors of COVID-19 lab leak papers as evidence something is a peer-reviewed reliable source? JoelleJay (talk) 15:40, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

David Bahry commentary versus the world is not exactly a convincing argument. I see no one has bothered to cite him yet. We can wait to see whether this monograph means a goddamn thing, but given what I have seen on social media, I wouldn't be holding my breath for his vindication. WP:CBALL, however, would have us not make any undue judgements about anything on the basis of this piece. jps (talk) 15:12, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

David Bahry is the author. I doubt he is lying about his own article being peer-reviewed?. 2601:602:8200:4A10:E4B7:9C47:38D2:4C42 (talk) 07:38, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

WP:GEVAL is part of the WP:NPOV policy. Wikipedia is not to promote minority views as being equal to the scientific consensus. There also are many reasons for that consensus and it's not a mere belief, virology wasn't born in 2019 and SARS-CoV-2 was not the first coronavirus of concern. Even if there had been some lab leak event, it most likely would not have resulted in the pandemic and would have been a sample of SARS-CoV-2 taken from infected humans. There's no evidence to suggest that it's not a typical spillover and adaptation event and the popularization of rumors doesn't change that... —PaleoNeonate – 00:42, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

That no scientific consensus exists is not a minority view point though. Why is "most scientists" mentioned but "no scientific consensus exists" is not mentioned? Mentioning one without the other is misleading and gives the appearance of a consensus. And if no consensus exists, it is definitely an important point worth mentioning but isn't. 2601:602:8200:4A10:F96A:153A:39E4:E45D (talk) 05:08, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

The articles themselves should not be a collection of sources per WP:OVERCITE, but if you need more scientific sources to assess the consensus, the WP:NOLEAK essay (and some previous revisions of it in its history) may be useful. Of course, a consensus doesn't mean that there are no individual contrarians. The media can also be misled and entertain ideas for views. In relation to medicine, WP can try to do better per WP:BESTSOURCES, WP:MEDRS, etc. How is "most scientists" unconvincing? If the language can be clarified without falling into GEVAL, suggestions at the talk page are welcome. —PaleoNeonate – 19:50, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Why are you ignoring these sources?

"Prof van der Merwe believes that scientists had used articles in The Lancet and Nature Medicine to create a “false impression” that a natural spillover origin was scientific consensus." The Telegraph

"There is no consensus on the origin of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2" The Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences

"To be clear, while some circumstantial evidence supports the lab leak theory, there is still no scientific consensus on whether COVID-19 emerged from a research facility, a wet market, or somewhere else." Reason

"The proximal origin of SARS-CoV-2 remains unknown. There are two leading hypotheses: that the virus emerged as a zoonotic spillover from wildlife or a farm animal, possibly through a wet market, in a location that is still undetermined; or that the virus emerged from a research-related incident, during the field collection of viruses or through a laboratory-associated escape. Commissioners held diverse views about the relative probabilities of the two explanations, and both possibilities require further scientific investigation." The Lancet

"There is no scientific consensus on how the virus originated, but researchers believe it could have originated naturally or from an accident in a lab." Politifact

"While Worobey et al. (and their companion paper by Pekar et al. [41]) may dispute these findings, no scientific consensus can yet be presumed." Commentary in ASM mBio

The Australian's investigations writer Sharri Markson: "There is no scientific consensus that COVID-19 has a natural origin" The Australian 2601:602:8200:4A10:E4B7:9C47:38D2:4C42 (talk) 07:41, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

That "no scientific consensus exists" is a WP:VAGUEWAVE. It's much the same argument that has been made when other controversies about science have been referenced at this website. We have plenty of sources which explain why the relevant experts, save a fairly small number of contrarians, have evaluated the data in such a way to come to one particular conclusion. That's a fair assessment and the one our readers deserve to have presented to them. jps (talk) 15:12, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

I won't engage with @jps further since he is clearly uninformed and his statements are demonstrably false. 2601:602:8200:4A10:E4B7:9C47:38D2:4C42 (talk) 07:42, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

You need to strike that comment about other editors being "uniformed" immediately or you'll find yourself before AN/I. I'd also advise you against taking a position where you refuse to discuss content differences. AlanS^talk 08:09, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

@jps said that the claim "no scientific consensus" is not backed by strong sourcing. I have provided evidence to show why that is an uninformed opinion. I am open to discussions on content differences but if one entirely ignores all reliably sourced claims contrary to one's position, then I don't see a point in having further discussions with them.

"Prof van der Merwe believes that scientists had used articles in The Lancet and Nature Medicine to create a “false impression” that a natural spillover origin was scientific consensus." The Telegraph

"There is no consensus on the origin of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2" The Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences

"To be clear, while some circumstantial evidence supports the lab leak theory, there is still no scientific consensus on whether COVID-19 emerged from a research facility, a wet market, or somewhere else." Reason

"The proximal origin of SARS-CoV-2 remains unknown. There are two leading hypotheses: that the virus emerged as a zoonotic spillover from wildlife or a farm animal, possibly through a wet market, in a location that is still undetermined; or that the virus emerged from a research-related incident, during the field collection of viruses or through a laboratory-associated escape. Commissioners held diverse views about the relative probabilities of the two explanations, and both possibilities require further scientific investigation." The Lancet

"There is no scientific consensus on how the virus originated, but researchers believe it could have originated naturally or from an accident in a lab." Politifact

"While Worobey et al. (and their companion paper by Pekar et al. [41]) may dispute these findings, no scientific consensus can yet be presumed." Commentary in ASM mBio

The Australian's investigations writer Sharri Markson: "There is no scientific consensus that COVID-19 has a natural origin" The Australian

Simon Wain-Hobson: “[The group of scientists pushing the claim of natural origin] want to show that virology is not responsible [for causing the pandemic]. That is their agenda.” Vanity Fair 2601:602:8200:4A10:41F3:FF5E:40AF:8EF3 (talk) 23:15, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

People need to give up this conspiracy theory nonsense. Unless they want to go with some deep state conspiracy to double down on their conspiracy, the CIA have said it didn't happen. AlanS^talk 02:28, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

CIA have not said that though. CIA has taken no side on this. You are citing something that is false.

And DoE and FBI both lean towards a lab origin. I won't engage with you further since you are saying things that are not true. 2601:602:8200:4A10:E4B7:9C47:38D2:4C42 (talk) 07:46, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

From the article I linked "The combined powers of the world’s most expansive intelligence apparatus could turn up no evidence the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) had SARS-CoV-2, nor its progenitor, nor a backbone on which it could have been engineered, before the pandemic broke out. Nor could they find any evidence of a biosafety incident." The intelligence apparatus being referred to are the CIA and the FBI. you need to strike your accusation that I'm a liar immediately or you'll find yourself before AN/I. AlanS^talk 07:57, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

You are conflating absence of evidence for evidence of absence.

Maybe you should not post false statements like "CIA has said that it didn't happen" if you don't want to be called out for it. 2601:602:8200:4A10:41F3:FF5E:40AF:8EF3 (talk) 22:59, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Seeing an absence of evidence to support the lab leak theory and several reasons for a probable zoonotic origin, it is no wonder that most epidemiologists believe that a zoonotic origin is far more likely than that it came from a lab. NightHeron (talk) 23:55, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

That's just an opinion not backed by any poll though. Why not mention that no scientific consensus exists despite being mentioned by multiple reliable sources? 2601:602:8200:4A10:89C5:33DC:5168:EB60 (talk) 07:10, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Some of the scientists that find lab origin plausible/more likely include - David Relman, Jesse Bloom, David Fisman, Nikolai Petrovsky, Raina MacIntyre, Bernard Roizman, Akiko Iwasaki, Marc Eloit, Richard Ebright, Scott Aaronson, Michael Lin, Angus Dalgleish, Roger Brent, Etienne Decroly, Nick Patterson, David Baltimore, Ian Lipkin, Milton Leitenberg, Scott Gottlieb, Deborah Birx, Roland Wiesendanger, Richard Muller, Brett Giroir, Robert Redfield, Simon Wain-Hobson, Neil Harrison, Steven Salzberg, Francois Balloux, Ravi Gupta, Stuart Newman, Virginie Courtier, Filippa Lentzos, Karol Sikora. 2601:602:8200:4A10:89C5:33DC:5168:EB60 (talk) 07:36, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

If you’re going to call someone a scientist, please tell me where they did their PhD and what their dissertation was on, where they did their postdoc and what they specialise in. I’m highly sceptical and I don’t accept anything at face value. AlanS^talk 13:13, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

PhDs? The scientists listed are some of the world leading experts on this topic, include distinguised professors, directors of laboratories as well as a Nobel laureate. 2601:602:8200:4A10:B890:4C4D:21BB:CA2B (talk) 07:55, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

So list the qualifications against each person then. TarnishedPath^talk 09:09, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

As I said, please feel free to flaunt your ignorance. 2601:602:8200:4A10:601E:483B:EE64:BED (talk) 12:02, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

I'd advise you to strike that false accusation. The only place in this conversation where the exact wording "CIA has said that it didn't happen" appears is what you just wrote. AlanS^talk 00:16, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

@AlanS, a minor difference in tense (original: "CIA have said it didn't happen", IP wrote "has") doesn't really make it a "false accusation". Schazjmd (talk) 14:37, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

@Schazjmd, my correction. However they did say "You are citing something that is false.

And DoE and FBI both lean towards a lab origin. I won't engage with you further since you are saying things that are not true". They were literally calling me a liar. They need to recant that by striking their comment. They have also called others "uninformed". AlanS^talk 14:57, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Putting aside whether what you said is accurate (what I'll say next applies either way), I'm not inclined to put much weight behind what the US intelligence agencies say about this subject. It's not exactly a conspiracy theory to say that the US government often has a competitor (if not outright hostile) mindset towards China, and there may or may not even be good reasons for that, but it drags down their objectivity on this matter. I would place the blame for continuing popular belief in a "lab leak theory" more squarely on the press, who have long had a mixed relationship towards scientific fact, than US intelligence agencies however. VintageVernacular (talk) 20:51, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

That's just not true. Many scientists disagree with the shallow consensus that is often pushed. Some of the scientists that find lab origin plausible/more likely include - David Relman, Jesse Bloom, David Fisman, Nikolai Petrovsky, Raina MacIntyre, Bernard Roizman, Akiko Iwasaki, Marc Eloit, Richard Ebright, Scott Aaronson, Michael Lin, Angus Dalgleish, Roger Brent, Etienne Decroly, Nick Patterson, David Baltimore, Ian Lipkin, Milton Leitenberg, Scott Gottlieb, Deborah Birx, Roland Wiesendanger, Richard Muller, Brett Giroir, Robert Redfield, Simon Wain-Hobson, Neil Harrison, Steven Salzberg, Francois Balloux, Ravi Gupta, Stuart Newman, Virginie Courtier, Filippa Lentzos, Karol Sikora. 2601:602:8200:4A10:89C5:33DC:5168:EB60 (talk) 07:31, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

If you’re going to call someone a scientist, please tell me where they did their PhD and what their dissertation was on, where they did their postdoc and what they specialise in. I’m highly sceptical and I don’t accept anything at face value. AlanS^talk 13:14, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

I base it on the fact that: "After May 2021, some media organizations softened previous language that described the laboratory leak theory as 'debunked' or a 'conspiracy theory'. However, the prevailing scientific view remained that while an accidental leak was possible, it was highly unlikely." My perception was this "softening" in the press caused the shift towards a false balance debate in the non-expert consciousness, since the news media had failed to consistently communicate the difference in perceived probability for either scenario that was communicated by scientific institutions. One can practically always find and list off experts who disagree with a scientific consensus, no matter the topic. VintageVernacular (talk) 18:46, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Thus the difference between possibility and probability. Many things are possible, not as many probable. AlanS^talk 01:25, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

As I said those scientists find lab leak plausible/more likely. This isn't about possible but not probable. 2601:602:8200:4A10:B890:4C4D:21BB:CA2B (talk) 07:45, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

What is your expertise to decide that those scientists disagree because of scientific reasons or because of news? False balance doesn't apply because there is no scientific consensus. 2601:602:8200:4A10:B890:4C4D:21BB:CA2B (talk) 07:44, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

That's not what I said. VintageVernacular (talk) 17:32, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

I've certainly found the discussion above confusing. Consensus is a much stronger thing than having a majority of scientists thinking something is probably true. Consensus is the sort of thing that they are pretty certain about and that the major institutions can stand behind. That the majoriy of people in the area think it probaby started in the marked from animals is evident from the citations, but that there is no consensus that that is what actually happened is also true, it is possible it started in a lab. Unfortunately China has not made it easy to be very clear on the matter - but that does not mean the conspiracy theorists are right! The problem for Wikipedia is how to just say something simple when people have this inane idea that scientists have to have clear beliefs like in some religion rather than just tending one way or the other until there is clear evidence and it has been well checked. NadVolum (talk) 22:17, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Lots of things are possible, that does not mean that they are remotely probable. It's entirely possible human life on earth started as a consequence of aliens putting us here. Is it probable? NO. The scientific weight for evolution by natural selection is crushing. WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE apply in regards to these sorts of conspiracies. AlanS^talk 01:09, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

What gives Wikipedia editors the right to decide whether this is a fringe theory when multiple well-established scientists disagree with them?

Some of the scientists that find lab origin plausible/more likely include - David Relman, Jesse Bloom, David Fisman, Nikolai Petrovsky, Raina MacIntyre, Bernard Roizman, Akiko Iwasaki, Marc Eloit, Richard Ebright, Scott Aaronson, Michael Lin, Angus Dalgleish, Roger Brent, Etienne Decroly, Nick Patterson, David Baltimore, Ian Lipkin, Milton Leitenberg, Scott Gottlieb, Deborah Birx, Roland Wiesendanger, Richard Muller, Brett Giroir, Robert Redfield, Simon Wain-Hobson, Neil Harrison, Steven Salzberg, Francois Balloux, Ravi Gupta, Stuart Newman, Virginie Courtier, Filippa Lentzos, Karol Sikora. 2601:602:8200:4A10:89C5:33DC:5168:EB60 (talk) 07:33, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

How many of these well-established scientists are epidemiologists, i.e., subject experts? And how long is the list of well-established epidemiologists worldwide who consider the lab leak theory to be highly unlikely? NightHeron (talk) 08:17, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

What is the basis that you are treating these multiple experts as fringe? This makes no sense. What is the subject matter expertise of Wikipedia editors to decide which set of scientists they find more "believable"? 2601:602:8200:4A10:B890:4C4D:21BB:CA2B (talk) 07:35, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

I exist outside the US where this discussion is nowhere near as polarised as it is in the US and in the rest of the world we don’t have the politicisation of medical science anywhere approaching what happens in the US. Most of outside the US look at debates like this and we shake our heads in disbelief.

Ps, if you’re going to call someone a scientist, please tell me where they did their PhD and what their dissertation was on, where they did their postdoc and what they specialise in. I’m highly sceptical and I don’t accept anything at face value. AlanS^talk 11:28, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Quite a few of the scientists I have listed are not from the US though. 2601:602:8200:4A10:B890:4C4D:21BB:CA2B (talk) 07:36, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps this debate needs to be rephrased not in terms of what scientists believe but what epidemiologists believe. I don’t care what Joe the orthopaedic surgeon believes about the origins COVID.AlanS^talk 12:24, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

I think the article is fine. It quite rightly points out that the strong evidence for it not being caused by a lab leak and that most scientists involved with the expertise to know consider a natural origin as being a lot more probable. However the WHO doesn't say there is a consensus nor do I think any other large scientific organization has nor has it even been asserted in a scholarly work so we can't start slapping fringe or pseudoscience or suchlike labels on it. NadVolum (talk) 20:35, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

"Most Scientists" is weasel words unless it's in the context of "most scientists in this survery..." real data we can look at. I thought Who's current statement is that the Zoonic option is most likely, and lab leak unlikely, and there is no solid proof for either to be completely definitive? This is my understanding of where we are: [46] "As stated above, the US intelligence community has concluded that both the main theories—animal spillover at a wet market and laboratory leak—remain plausible, with a sense of resignation about ever finding a definitive answer." Denaar (talk) 21:49, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

I see no reasn to suppose the US intelligence community have any knowledge not availabe to anyone else about this and they have no expertise in the topic. All their statement does is not say untruths but increase FUD. Which is one of their skills. NadVolum (talk) 23:51, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Indeed, and if looking for decent sources about those who promote manufactured "controversy", there's a lot, WP also covers some of that. Making people, governments, the media and Wikipedia repeat the same things over and over is part of that... —PaleoNeonate – 09:13, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Another incorrect point.

Department of Energy and the FBI both employ scientists who are tasked with detecting unnatural outbreaks.

https://www.nationalreview.com/the-morning-jolt/the-energy-department-lab-investigating-covid-knows-what-its-talking-about/ 2601:602:8200:4A10:B890:4C4D:21BB:CA2B (talk) 07:40, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Why would you expect them to be any use for analysing the available information? Their job is to be paranoid never even mind what the intelligence service wants. The only thing the intelligence service might be better at is spying on secret labs in other countries. Which this one very definitely isn't. NadVolum (talk) 20:27, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

We should be skeptical, and consider the biases of their employer, but discarding their analysis altogether would likely be unwise. Not to derail, but if I may make a comparison: I'm sometimes reminded of the Havana syndrome situation when it comes to this topic. Although, the US intelligence community has appeared more divided on the lab leak question than the Havana syndrome question — at least historically. VintageVernacular (talk) 23:20, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

The US intelligence community can be as divided as it likes, that's merely a symptom of how political things have become in the US, things that have no place being political at all such as science and health. The CIA, FBI and others have released a summary of intelligence recently in which they admit “We continue to have no indication the WIV’s pre-pandemic research holdings included SARS CoV-2 or a close progenitor,”. Bluntly quoting the article "The combined powers of the world’s most expansive intelligence apparatus could turn up no evidence the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) had SARS-CoV-2, nor its progenitor, nor a backbone on which it could have been engineered, before the pandemic broke out. Nor could they find any evidence of a biosafety incident". Frankly they can be divided about the existence of Santa also if they want, it doesn't make the dude any more probable. TarnishedPath^talk 00:46, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

• Comment I've started a discussion in the article's talk page about whether it should be renamed "COVID-19 lab leak conspiracy". TarnishedPath^talk 02:56, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

  As I said, please feel free to flaunt your ignorance. 2601:602:8200:4A10:601E:483B:EE64:BED (talk) 12:02, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

  You really need to cease with the insults. I invite you to strike that statement. TarnishedPath^talk 06:46, 18 August 2023 (UTC)