6

In this question the asker presents their C++ code which uses a custom linked list data structure (as provided by LeetCode), aiming to sort it.

One commenter writes (I highlight in bold):

Don't just don't try to learn C++ by doing competitive coding. Nobody in their right mind would still use a linked list like that (it is just too easy to make bugs). C++ has std::list. My advice leave leetcode alone for a while and first learn C++ e.g. visit learncpp.com. The stackoverflow you see is the result of infinite recursion

This could be just a way of saying "Please don't use a linked list like that", or "professional coders don't use this in business code". But it uses stronger language, and actually suggests that the asker does not belong to the group of people who are in their right mind. Or did they suggest the people that designed this challenge are not in that group? Still, it is also the asker that is using a linked list like that...

Anyway, putting myself in the shoes of the asker, I found it offensive, and flagged it as "It's unfriendly or unkind", but the flag was declined.

Was my sensitivity bar set too high, taking this too literally? Is this neither unfriendly nor unkind?

13
  • 1
    related: When is it appropriate to comment saying that coding challenges are a poor learning strategy, and to suggest a different strategy?
    – starball
    Commented Aug 29 at 17:43
  • 7
    I'm not sure exactly how to phrase this, but I think there's a difference between the direct recipient of a comment deciding to report a comment as unfriendly/unkind vs somebody else making the report. E.g. if the question asker feels a comment is unkind and it's a borderline case, I'm inclined to say 'the person to whom the comment was directed felt it was unkind, and their level of sensitivity matters'. But if an unrelated person decides to report it, I'd probably calibrate the bar a little higher and only remove it if it's indisputably objectionable. Does that make sense to others?
    – Kaia
    Commented Aug 29 at 18:03
  • 9
    @Kaia: I disagree. We want to try and maintain some objective standards for discourse here. It's not really possible, but we want to try. Sometimes, the target of a comment takes great offense at fairly benign and even constructive critiques. It's happened to me many times. We don't want to delete or modify such comments. Sometimes, unnecessarily harsh and inappropriate comments will not be reported by the target of the comment. We still don't want such comments on this site.
    – President James K. Polk
    Commented Aug 30 at 2:41
  • 4
    "This comment is rude or condescending." Check and check.
    – user5349916
    Commented Aug 30 at 7:34
  • 2
    Would agree, it takes some poetic liberties that are unnecessary and can be misinterpreted. But human beings are human beings, they need to express themselves in non-robotic ways. The onus is on both the author and the reader to remove any sticks before sitting down.
    – Gimby
    Commented Aug 30 at 8:55
  • 5
    FWIW, I would be more irritated at "professional coders don't use this" being said about something I'd done than "nobody in their right mind would do this", albeit for reasons I find hard to articulate or understand & that may be based on my background. I think part of it is that the "nobody in their right mind" version is obviously hyperbolic and un-PC; it feels like something that would be said casually in a chat in the pub, and so doesn't register as a personal attack. Adding in the reference to professionalism, on the other hand, makes the comment feel like a kind of formal reprimand.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Aug 30 at 20:43
  • 10
    Criticise the code, not the coder. "Nobody in their right mind" is the coder. Pretty simple.
    – Roddy of the Frozen Peas
    Commented Aug 30 at 20:51
  • @MarkAmery, that's a valid point. I updated this alternative, by adding the qualification "in business code". This can still be taken wrongly, but this way code challenges, fun, testing a theory, ...etc, are out of that scope, as well as the asker's attempt in using the custom linked list implementation provided in a code challenge. I think this is what the commenter might have intended with their hyperbolic comment (at least I hope so).
    – trincot
    Commented Sep 2 at 8:10
  • 2
    even without the whole context this figurative way of saying something is a bad idea is something that is common in the english language so i don't see the problem with it.
    – Pizza lord
    Commented Sep 2 at 9:15
  • 3
    @Pizzalord, is that certain? I'd like to believe that, but when I look up the idiom in like Merriam-Webster, it says for in one's right mind: "idiom : having a healthy mental state". Similarly, for the opposite not in one's right mind it has: "idiom : mentally ill | There's something wrong with him. He's not in his right mind.". Those explanations don't really soften the load of the message. No mention of "figure of speech".
    – trincot
    Commented Sep 2 at 9:48
  • 3
    @trincot from the first result i got on google: The phrase “Nobody in their right mind would do that” is a rhetorical device used to emphasize the absurdity or foolishness of a particular action. It is a figurative way to convey that a behavior is unacceptable, impractical, or illogical. The two examples you provide are different phrases which have nothing to do with the one used in the comment that is being discussed.
    – Pizza lord
    Commented Sep 2 at 10:01
  • 3
    I can only conclude how easy it is for a non-native English speaker to get the wrong message here.
    – trincot
    Commented Sep 2 at 11:38
  • 3
    @Pizzalord Not even specifically searching for it got me that definition. None of the big dictionaries I know list the expression specifically. Google translate takes it literally, as does the seemingly only online dictionary to my native language that lists it. With google search, the softest meaning low on the front page is an irrational action which only has the benefit of blaming the action instead. The top hits include questioning the sanity or intelligence of the person.
    – user5349916
    Commented Sep 3 at 6:19

4 Answers 4

Reset to default
31

The full comment says quite a bit more than just "Nobody in their right mind would do that":

Screenshot of the comment being discussed

Don't just don't try to learn C++ by doing competitive coding. Nobody in their right mind would still use a linked list like that (it is just too easy to make bugs). C++ has std::list. My advice leave leetcode alone for a while and first learn C++ e.g. visit learncpp.com. The stackoverflow you see is a the result of infinite recursion

While I would agree the remark is not necessarily friendly (as in, it doesn't elicit fuzzy, warm feelings), I don't think even in isolation it is unfriendly, either... it's just somewhat blunt. But given that it's nestled in the middle of a longer comment which gives advice on what to do and what not to do, as well as providing direct information about OP's problem, it's hard for me to see this as unkind or unfriendly.

7
  • 10
    I generally can see the statement itself as unfriendly, but in the overall context of a larger useful/helpful comment... i'm more inclined to leave it be. though i wouldn't contest a mod doing a little edit
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 29 at 16:02
  • 5
    I am shocked to see that the community considers such casual abuse not even unfriendly in the slightest.
    – user5349916
    Commented Aug 31 at 5:39
  • 2
    @chivracq Please don’t give me that "context" excuse. So far 32 people agree with an answer that says "I don't think even in isolation it is unfriendly, either".
    – user5349916
    Commented Aug 31 at 8:36
  • 3
    it's just somewhat blunt ... welcome to the Dutch ...
    – rene
    Commented Aug 31 at 9:20
  • 2
    Friendly and unfriendly are collectively exhaustive - as in there are no other possibilities. I don't see how you even made a third category here - using a vague term "blunt". You're either a friend of the cartel or you're not ;) PS: I'd rather have my friend call me insane or even slap me, rather than let me fall into some stupid obvious trap, because he's just being politically correct and trying to be all warm and fuzzy.
    – TheMaster
    Commented Sep 1 at 6:36
  • 1
    @TheMaster "I don't see how you even made a third category here" I didn't make one, it already exists: neutral. Friendly and unfriendly are not two sides of a binary. As one rather straightforward example: "You are in my way" is neither friendly nor unfriendly, it is neutral (or as some would perceive, blunt). "Pardon me, but you are in my way" is polite. "You are in my way a**hole" is unfriendly.
    – TylerH
    Commented Sep 3 at 0:56
  • 2
    @user5349916 Context isn't even needed; this is not abuse in any sense of the word.
    – TylerH
    Commented Sep 3 at 2:38
5

I think that "is this unfriendly or unkind?" is the wrong question, because it accepts the existing framework which is less than ideal. I want to be more nuanced:

  • Is there a social issue with phrasing comments this way? Absolutely yes. Some might be surprised to hear me say it (I have a reputation for bluntness), but to me this kind of commentary crosses a line. It's no longer firmly stating that something is a terrible idea; it implies that the OP should know better and should feel bad for having written the code. (Some OPs should know better, but I feel it's better to express this plainly.)

  • Would Stack Overflow be perceived as a friendlier place if such commentary were wiped as a matter of course, easy to convince moderators to remove, and much less often made in the first place? Again, yes. We don't want people coming here for code review in the first place, so unsolicited code review is at best a distraction and at worst negative feedback to the idea of asking a question at all. It doesn't say anything about improving the question - and anyway, questions don't have to involve "best practice" to meet standards. It's fine to have questions motivated by an XY problem, exactly because it might not be an XY problem for someone else.

  • Should such commentary merit a 100 reputation penalty and a direct talking-to from mods? No. However, it does merit deletion. More importantly for the current discussion, though, it merits tracking to see if someone has a pattern of such flowery language. People who are abrasive but not directly insulting, should be counseled on ways to improve how they come across. The latter doesn't, to my understanding, generally happen with a "no longer needed" flag. But I don't know if that's a technical problem (a need for a different flag tier) or a social one (asking mods to please keep this sort of thing in mind).

6
  • 3
    I wouldn't read that comment as insulting the OP. It's just warning them to avoid the influence of the bad coding practices found on leetcode. I suppose it's insulting the person(s) on leetcode who created the coding challenge and who thought it was perfectly fine to use that obsolete linked list.
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented Aug 29 at 20:11
  • 5
    I agree, these comments should be deleted or edited. I will say that "unsolicited code review is at best a distraction" seems a little extreme to me. If a comment provides an evidence-based reason to avoid a certain programming practice, I think that could help OP and Googlers avoid falling into the same trap. It needs to be polite, and it needs to be more than just an assertion, but I see those as problems with this particular case rather than the practice in general. (I often link to Why are global variables evil? on Python questions.)
    – Anerdw
    Commented Aug 29 at 21:51
  • 9
    @PM2Ring I think it's more that the phrase "No one in their right mind would..." is, on some level, inherently inflammatory (despite it, perhaps, being a fairly common phrase). Its words are an explicit remark on the reader's intelligence and experience, and carries a direct and belittling implication when read plainly. It's also, I'd argue, completely irrelevant to the point being made– the commenter likely wasn't trying to belittle, but to inform that the asker's approach is non-customary, which can be told in any number of less-inflaming ways that don't have this effect.
    – zcoop98
    Commented Aug 29 at 22:30
  • 6
    I really appreciate this answer and its nuance. I think you really nicely summarized why interpreting and dealing with language like this, stuff that can be plainly read as inflammatory (even if it's a common phrase and likely not meant that way), is so difficult and doesn't fit neatly into site tools. I hadn't even thought about the red flag penalty, but yeah, that's suuuuper overkill for a one-off comment in this category, no question. But then we're just sorta stuck with this stuff, and it can easily leave a bad taste in people's mouths that seems... pretty justified to me honestly.
    – zcoop98
    Commented Aug 29 at 22:38
  • 5
    That "tracking" in the last point is a slippery slope. A few months ago, I got a moderator message about my "abrasive" communication style. In that message, the moderator referenced several comments I made over the span of 6 months, most of them on Meta posts that have long since been deleted, as they were usually typical disgruntled user rants... The referenced comments felt cherry-picked from my activity during that period, where the majority of my comments were helpful. In essence, that "tracking" can easily turn into a witch hunt...
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Aug 30 at 8:08
  • 6
    "Contain yourself" would be the generic advice that really hooks into all online outings, not just Stack Overflow. A hard thing for people to consistently do. I mean guilty myself, of course.
    – Gimby
    Commented Aug 30 at 12:55
1

It's unfriendly or unkind.
This comment is rude or condescending. […]

Well... check and check.

Comments are not meant for such advice in the first place. Going out of the way to still add such a comment while belittling people…

Yeah. That’s rude and condescending.

20
  • 6
    I'm very surprised to see these kinds of answers. I don't agree that the comment is either rude or condescending. And I definitely don't agree that comments are not meant for giving advice that someone is doing something wrong and/or that there is a better, more idiomatic way. In fact, I'd say that is one of the primary uses of comments (the other being requesting additional information and/or clarification). I see nothing whatsoever "belittling" here. At most, I see a poorly-chosen turn of phrase, if for no other reason than it seems to have struck so many wrong. But no malice.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 30 at 10:28
  • 7
    @CodyGray This might be a cultural or tag specific view. I see nothing "poorly chosen" in words questioning the mental capacities of people; this isn’t appropriate and shouldn’t be up for choice to begin with.
    – user5349916
    Commented Aug 30 at 10:35
  • @CodyGray As for what comments are there for - the help centre seems pretty clear on that.
    – user5349916
    Commented Aug 30 at 10:36
  • 7
    Nobody questioned the mental capacities of anyone. This is equivalent to saying, "you'd have to be insane to run rm -rf on a production server". Is that rude, condescending, or a personal attack? I definitely don't see it that way. Again, probably a poor choice of a turn of phrase, as people may interpret it that way, so the phrasing should be avoided, but there's absolutely no inkling in my mind that the author of this comment intended to insult or attack anyone or truly question their mental capabilities.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 30 at 10:44
  • 4
    Regarding the purpose of comments and the Help Center, that page is intentionally vague and hand-wavy. The bullet point "Add relevant but minor or transient information to a post" fits this particular use-case that I described quite well. Note that "e.g." is not exhaustive; it only gives examples.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 30 at 10:45
  • 2
    @CodyGray I regularly run rm -rf on a production server. I think this is my cue to leave this conversation.
    – user5349916
    Commented Aug 30 at 10:46
  • 6
    Yes, if you take offense at an arbitrarily-chosen, not particularly well thought out example... Or, actually, maybe it's a good example, because maybe the appropriate response is, "No, it's not as insane as one might think. There are actually good reasons to do this. For example, ..."
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 30 at 10:47
  • 7
    One other salient point worth noting about the context. The author of the comment is not insulting the author of the post, because the author of the post is not actually defending everything that exists on LeetCode. The author of the comment is making a larger point that these coding challenges on LeetCode and other sites are chosen for a very different purpose than practical programming, and noting that under normal circumstances you wouldn't do something like this, so don't confuse what you "learn" from coding challenges as real-world coding. I don't see this as subtlety that is easily lost.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 30 at 10:49
  • 5
    Based on our past interactions, I've a great deal of respect for you, which is why I'm engaging with your point of view, rather than just dismissing it with a downvote. I'm not trying to be rude or hurtful here. I'm frustrated that you are taking it that way, and acting that somehow my status as a moderator prevents us from being able to have a discussion about an issue that you and many others obviously think is important. I'm genuinely puzzled at why you find this to be so offensive, and I am hoping to understand it better, because that would make me a better mod. Just want to clear the air.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 30 at 10:53
  • 8
    "It would be insane to want to do X" is altogether different, to me, than "You are an insane person". Similar to, "that is a stupid comment" vs. "you are stupid". One is about a specific action/circumstance, while the other is a sweeping judgment about a person. I occasionally do stupid or insane things, but that doesn't make me a stupid person or insane.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 30 at 11:44
  • 1
    To me it's not surprising this is taken as an insult, and it is because the phrase is not constructed like "It would be insane to want to do X", but is speaking of the mental health of people. It is not surprising we don't all know the idioms of the English language, even more so because many online dictionaries and translators out there don't seem to catch/explain the hyperbole either.
    – trincot
    Commented Sep 4 at 5:47
  • @trincot That's understandable, but then again, perhaps that non-native speaker should not insist on their literal interpretation as being the (only) correct one, and coerce others to change the way they express themselves based on the automatic assumption that they intend to insult them.
    – Dan Mašek
    Commented Sep 5 at 23:55
  • 1
    @DanMašek And how are they supposed to do that when the "uninsulting" meaning is barely findable? Do you check every perceived insult if it’s some obscure ingroup joke? Maybe, just maybe, people should avoid words that are rude.
    – user5349916
    Commented Sep 6 at 5:26
  • 2
    @DanMašek, but that is not a representation of what happened here. I did not "insist", nor did I "coerce". At the time I first read the comment, I looked up in dictionaries if my first hunch was maybe wrong, and from what I found back then I got it should be taken literally. I flagged the comment, which means I asked a moderator to have a look at it. Then when I saw their decision I came here to ask the community about it. From the reactions I learnt that it is hyperbole, but also a topic where opinions diverge. No-one was coerced in the process.
    – trincot
    Commented Sep 6 at 5:51
  • @trincot I wasn't talking about you... so yeah, none of that applies to your actions.
    – Dan Mašek
    Commented Sep 6 at 23:03
-10

In my eyes, the comment is unkind. Its wording seems dismissive, and the phrase "nobody in their right mind" could appear unwelcoming. Even if it wasn't meant to be rude, it has at least some potential to seem rude or cause offense.

If you want to keep the advice, or you think the loss of the advice might make others reluctant to delete the comment, you can always leave your own to fill the gap. That way, we can preserve the good parts of the comment while still removing the bad:1

The stack overflow you see is the result of infinite recursion. It's easy to make bugs when using a linked list like this. C++ has std::list, which I would recommend using instead.

I think it's worth keeping in mind that comment flags don't have many effects besides deleting the comment. Since we don't really have to worry about repercussions for the poster, the question basically boils down to "would this site be better with or without the comment?" From that viewpoint, if the comment a) has no benefits that can't be recreated by another comment, and b) could make someone feel unwelcome, it's probably net bad for the site and should be deleted.

1. Whether or not you should actually do this appears to be of some dispute; it's possible that advice in comments is just never useful and doesn't need to be preserved.

9
  • 4
    Yeah, don't use custom mod flags for comments like this. This isn't anywhere close to serious enough.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Aug 30 at 8:02
  • I disagree with Cerbrus here, the mod flag on the comment would be somewhat fine. Since flags on comments may be marked as helpful automatically when the comments are removed for other reasons (lots of flags on the comment, or the poster deleting the comment), they are not suitable for when further action is necessary other than removing the comment. In other words, the flag should explain why it should be removed, and the desired outcome is exclusively getting that comment gone.
    – E_net4
    Commented Aug 30 at 9:37
  • 3
    On the other hand, I would not be so reluctant in flagging a comment as unfriendly/unkind in the event that the comment is indeed rude. If one cannot portray the useful part in a kind fashion, they were better off not commenting at all. Folks may disagree, but it's not worth trying to be useful while also being part of the problem. (Note that I am not specifically talking about the comment in question)
    – E_net4
    Commented Aug 30 at 9:39
  • 4
    " I would be hesitant to flag it for deletion since doing so would delete the advice." - comments are not meant for dishing out advice of course, so that in itself should not be a reason to put up walls. But on the other hand... where else would you have your outlet.
    – Gimby
    Commented Aug 30 at 14:23
  • @Gimby What do you mean by "outlet?" (I seem to have left my reading comprehension behind.)
    – Anerdw
    Commented Aug 31 at 5:13
  • 6
    "comments are not meant for dishing out advice" Where is this fiction coming from, @Gimby? You're not the first person on this very Q&A that I've seen make this claim, and it just boggles my mind. Of course this is a valid use-case for comments. Why would it not be?
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 31 at 9:09
  • 4
    If not for advice, what would the purpose of comments be, at all?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 2 at 8:04
  • 2
    @CodyGray no it isn't, comments are for pointing out problems with the post and requesting further information. Giving advice would fall into the realm of what is condoned because we look the other way. Because if not in the comments, where else would you use the site for things that it is not intended for?
    – Gimby
    Commented Sep 3 at 15:10
  • 3
    Giving advice to people asking questions is a legitimate part of what the site is intended for. I don't see this as a "tolerated misuse" of comments. Having an extended digressive conversation with a user is not what comments are for. An eye should always be kept on what would be useful for future viewers. But people having the same problem in the future will likely benefit from the same advice, which makes it a useful and appropriate contribution. Perhaps it'd be better to post a full-fledged answer explaining why not to do it this way and giving an alternative, but that's unpopular.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Sep 3 at 23:52

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .