Talk:Book of Genesis/GA1

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Reviewer: Seraphim System (talk · contribs) 14:44, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
It is reasonably well written. a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists): It is factually accurate and verifiable. a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism): It is broad in its coverage. a (major aspects): b (focused): It follows the neutral point of view policy. Fair representation without bias: It is stable. No edit wars, etc.: It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate. a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall: Pass/Fail:
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Question - I know we include summaries for "fiction" books but I haven't seen the section of MOS that would permit a summary for a philosophy/religious text without citations, can you please point me towards the policy you relied on so I can review it? It also, after a preliminary read through, does seem that the summary is considerably too long relative to the length of the rest of the article. Thanks, Seraphim System ^(talk) 14:44, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I haven't forgotten about this, but it is taking me a little time. I have some bible resources I want to consult to see if the themes section is missing anything - it doesn't have to be complete to pass GA but it does need to have a substantial and broad coverage and address the main aspects. I am also noting that the Third Epistle of John is a GA article where the summary has citations to secondary sources. Likewise, there should be citations to secondary sources here, as summarizing the Bible for ourselves could be considered WP:OR - if there is no policy that speaks to this, I think the best policy is to follow WP:V as usual. Seraphim System ^(talk) 23:12, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Seraphim System. I just chanced upon this. I can see some things in the article that need improvement if it's to get GA - the summary needs to focus on the theology rather than on dramatic incidents, the structure needs more detail, and the origins/composition needs updating (documentary hypothesis isn't enough in itself). I'll work at little by little.PiCo (talk) 07:16, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The review has been open for a long time and I am not going to pass it this round because it is undergoing significant revision and also needs considerable work. As stated above the structure sections needs more detail, and the issue about documentary hypothesis and composition should be discussed on talk with other editors, and there should be a consensus for the changes.

Regarding the lede I would say this statement has some NPOV issues

• Tradition credits Moses as the author of Genesis, as well as Exodus, Book of Leviticus, Numbers and most of Book of Deuteronomy, but modern scholars increasingly see them as a product of the 6th and 5th centuries BC.[6][7]

Most of the sources I have looked at do not emphasize "Tradition" (which Tradition btw? The Tradition?) - even religious sources I am looking at like Baker distinguish between religious tradition and biblical scholarship - it is not "modern scholars increasingly see", it is an overwhelming academic consensus (at least as far as the books were not written by Moses). Baker's commentary, which is itself a Christian religious study source prepared by university affiliated academics, uses the language "Most scholars" if that is any help.

Regarding structure:

• "These are the generations" is covered, but more could be said about the structure. The source I am looking at explains it as there are 10 sections introduced this way. Perhaps these verses could be added in a reference note. The article seems to cover the breakdown - 5 of these verses is followed by narrative, and five are followed by genealogy. The source also notes that all 10 end with the the name of a person except one - but I found the wording in the article ("with the first use of the phrase referring to the "generations of heaven and earth") to be confusing.
• Consider whether "Ancestral history" is DUE/NPOV and standardize use throughout the article. Other terms that are used are "Patriarchal history", noting that Genesis still deals with multiple generations in the first books. The source I am looking at does not say anything about: (The stories of Isaac do not make up a coherent cycle of stories and function as a bridge between the cycles of Abraham and Jacob) so consider looking at multiple sources to see if this view is a majority position.

Regarding the summary section:

• Personally, I would find inline references that link to the chapter and verses helpful for the summary section, because I do look up verses when I am reading articles. Also, I don't really think this falls under the sourcing exception for fiction summaries, so I think it should not be left unreferenced for a GA article.

Themes:

• The themes section is missing major issues, most notably "beginnings", but also sin/fall
• "Promises to the ancestors" has problems as a subheading, and the entire use of the word "ancestors" (ancestors or patriarchs) - I think Patriarchs is generally more in use, but either way the usage in the article should be standardized.
• There is also the issue of the "Promises" section not covering the Christian interpretation of those sections, for which the themes might be grace/redemption.
• It is broken up into "Promises to the ancestors" and "God's chosen people" - isn't this one theme?

• Overall I think the prose could be improved for conciseness and clarity, for example:
• Scholars generally agree that the theme of divine promise unites the patriarchal cycles, but many would dispute the efficacy of trying to examine Genesis' theology by pursuing a single overarching theme, instead citing as more productive the analysis of the Abraham cycle, the Jacob cycle, and the Joseph cycle, and the Yahwist and Priestly sources. should be broken up into shorter sentences
• The first covenant is between God and all living creatures, and is marked by the sign of the rainbow; the second is with the descendants of Abraham (Ishmaelites and others as well as Israelites), and its sign is circumcision; and the last, which doesn't appear until the book of Exodus, is with Israel alone, and its sign is Sabbath. - the distinctive "sign" are not clearly linked to the subheading
• The patriarchs, or ancestors, are Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, with their wives (Joseph is normally excluded). I think this is trying to be inclusive of women, but the sentence it has produced is confusing, and I'm not sure the wives themselves are included based on the majority of WP:RS
• It is, however, worth noting that in the Jahwist source the patriarchs refer to deity by the name YHWH, for example in Genesis 15.) I am not sure that is worth noting in a parenthetical break in the themes section about "promises", and should probably be discussed in the composition section.

These are a few points to consider, but certainly not exhaustive. Seraphim System ^(talk) 03:27, 26 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]