Talk:David Zuckerman (politician)

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Section sizes Section size for David Zuckerman (politician) (19 sections) Section name Byte count Section total (Top) 7,643 7,643 Early life and education 1,680 1,680 Career 12 9,256 State House of Representatives 2,644 2,644 State senate 2,720 2,720 Lieutenant governor 2,363 2,363 Agriculture 1,517 1,517 Political positions 25 5,384 Labor 715 715 Opposition to Bush administration 983 983 Property tax reform 898 898 Equal pay 520 520 GMO labeling 722 722 Vaccines 1,521 1,521 Personal life 303 303 Electoral history 11,696 11,696 Notes 31 31 References 34 34 External links 2,963 2,963 Total 38,990 38,990

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@Snooganssnoogans:, I added the statement about Zuckerman's daughter's vaccination, in an attempt to suggest that he is not a dyed-in-the-wool anti-vaxxer. I then thought better of it, and changed it to the text you reverted, because (in spite of his stating it in 2015) maybe he doesn't want her status to be a political point, and because his daughter is not a notable person (I've been following the edit wars over the inclusion of Greta Thunberg's father in the infobox for her article.) Is there a less-intrusive way to make the same point? Should we care? Paulmlieberman (talk) 14:07, 6 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Paulmlieberman: He was the one using that point in a debate: In the 2018 debate, Zuckerman said “the science behind vaccines is sound, I think vaccines do good for our communities, my daughter is vaccinated. But it’s a question of whether government should be forcing that onto individuals.” [1] So it seems to be due. --MarioGom (talk) 14:40, 6 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• DavidZuckermanHeadshot.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 05:53, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Tedm03: Hello, I finally created an account from the IP address you have been warring with, so know this what I will use going forward. We should resolve this dispute before the admins get involved, so here is an explanation. Vermont is one of a small number of states that employ a practice known as electoral fusion, where multiple parties can endorse and simultaneously run the same candidate. The origin of this particular misunderstanding seems to revolve around the fact that Zuckerman, while considered by virtually everyone a Progressive, runs in and often wins Democratic Primaries. This is however neither an oddity nor an indication that he is a Democrat under the rules of a fusion system. I am more familiar with my native New York, but the voting practice is similar, so a great example I often bring up is the 2002 Gubernatorial Election Primaries in New York. Tom Golisano, who was then a part of the Independence Party, and George Pataki, a Republican, simultaneously ran in the each others party primaries, as well as the Conservative Primary. while both defended successfully their parties nomination, they wouldn't have switched to a different party simply because they won another party's primary election. This is a similar case. Zuckerman won the Democratic Nomination, but that doesn't make him a Democrat, because he is a member of the Progressives, and is generally considered a Progressive. The reason the party listings were brought up is because in Vermont, when a candidate wins multiple primaries, they are allowed to list as many nominations as possible in any order they wish. It is common practice, when having multiple nominations, to list your main affiliation first, which in Zuckerman's case is the Progressive Party. That is why Vermont has legislators listed as Prog/Dem, who are primarily Progressive, as opposed to Dem/Prog, who are primarily Democratic. if you have nay more objections then you may raise them, but otherwise it's best to restore his widely accepted party tags: Progressive as his main party, and Democratic as his other affiliation MCUSRAP (talk) 12:32, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I also live in New York and the system is different than Vermont’s. New York uses “alliances”, Vermont doesn’t. And Zuckerman has always been a write in on the Progressive primary, never an actual candidate. He’s always run as a Democrat, he never filed to run as a progressive. Tedm03 (talk) 18:39, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Except everyone considers him one. The Vermont Lt. Governor's site, which should be a good enough source for you, says he is a progressive. His Party (the progressives) even said they refused to support another candidate for Governor, and if Zuckerman lost the primary the party wouldn't contest the November Election. The entire basis for your disruptive editing is that he was only a write-in candidate for their primary, but he still very much contested the primary, and actually won when the final results were released, beating both candidates on the ballot this year. Your claim that he only won as a write in is frankly irrelevant, when he us considered by everyone to be part of the party. In the 2020 Vermont Gubernatorial Election, there is a footnote under the Democratic Primary that Zuckerman is a Progressive Party Member. Even in this article, he is referred to several times as a progressive party politician. If anyone attempts to read the article with your edits, they will immediately wonder why someone who is called a Progressive Party Politician IN THE FIRST SENTENCE is a Democrat, and they will see what I and the other editors saw: that someone decided to edit Zuckerman's information, not only on this page, but on other pages as well, to list him as a Democrat despite all the evidence that they are not his main party. The idea that there aren't "alliances" in Vermont is also quite misleading. To put it simply, the only difference between New York and Vermont is that in NY Candidates are listed next to their parties in a predetermined order, where as in Vermont the Candidate chooses the order and all the candidates parties are on one ballot line. He doesn't run for office as a Democrat. A quick look at a 2018 sample ballot lists him as Prog/Dem, and as said many times previously it is accepted practice to list your main party before any cross endorsements, and thus the Progressive Party is his main Party. Can you give a citation that lists him as a Democrat that is more reliable than his own campaign website, the Lt. Governor's office Website, and the ballot itself? If not, then just leave him as a Progressive, just as he had always been on every page that refers to him and stop altering party details that are reverted by countless users. MCUSRAP (talk) 20:05, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

“Reverted by countless users” is just you. Just saying “everyone considers him a progressive” is vague and not encyclopedic. Wikipedia reports facts, not opinions. The fact is he’s always been on the ballot as a Democrat and that’s not irrelevant. Tedm03 (talk) 20:21, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Tedm03:Is that a Sock Puppeteering accusation? I already said this is an account created from a previously contributing IP address, but this is what I will use from now on. If you believe that I am the only user here, and I am a sock puppeteer, then let me remind you that edits attempting to list Zuckerman with a primary Democratic association have been reverted by ADMINS before, such as here Lt. Governors of Vermont. The reason I said everyone considers him a Progressive is because he is referred to as one on several pages, such as this one, previous elections such as 2018 (as a Prog/Dem)and, the aforementioned List of lieutenant governors of Vermont before you messed with it, the List of US Lt. Governors which includes two maps, and countless other pages on Wikipedia, as well as on his official campaign website, and the VT Lt. Governor's office website. As for the "facts", as I said before, a look at a 2018 sample ballot shows that he previously ran as Progressive/Democratic, not only as Democratic. So as I said, give me your sources and we an compare MCUSRAP (talk) 21:03, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Tedm03: Do you have any better sources? I've given you ample time, i believe. If you don't respond within a few hours I will revert the article to the version that lists him as Progressive and assume the matter settled. If you do in fact have better sources for your claim than I do, feel free to share them here so we can compare, and maybe we could leave him as Democratic in that case, but this will not be the standard assumption if you do not reply. MCUSRAP (talk) 01:23, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, yes. It’s called the ballot. Every single Progressive primary ballot has Zuckerman as a write in. That differs from the democratic ballot which doesn’t. Simple as that. Your opinion doesn’t matter. Tedm03 (talk) 01:42, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Tedm03: I said before, just because somebody is a write in doesn't mean they aren't contesting the election. Do you remember when you deleted Zuckerman's listing as a candidate in the 2020 Progressive Primary for no apparent reason, and then called the person who reverted your edit a bot, and then restored your edit without actually addressing the editors concern? Well, as it turns out, Zuckerman actually WON THAT PRIMARY, so not only was your deletion of content unnecessary, it was woefully ignorant of the situation, as Zuckerman always was considered viable for the nomination, and you misled anyone who read your version of the article into not knowing about the eventual nominee. Now you went ahead and changed the results section of the same page to list Zuckerman as a pure Democratic candidate, even though this was not the practice followed in past elections. I myself didn't understand the template entirely, and was either going to wait for a more experienced editor to correct the general election ballot by fusing the Progressive and Democratic lines, or look into it myself in no change was made after a few days. As it stands right now, I might ask for a request for comment soon, because this discussion is going absolutely nowhere. Would you be open to that? MCUSRAP (talk) 04:08, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Should David Zuckerman's Party be listed as Progressive or Democratic?MCUSRAP (talk) 19:36, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm new, so sorry if I screw up procedural stuff, but in brief, an editor recently changed David Zuckerman's longtime Progressive listing to Democratic, based on the idea that he couldn't possibly be a progressive if he is only a write-in in the progressive primary. The user thus decided to change his party here and on the list of VT. Lt. Governors, while on the 2020 gubernatorial election in Vermont he took out Zuckerman's listing ahead of the Progressive Primary election without citing a reason- and Zuckerman then won this election. Most key sources consider him a Progressive, however, and commonn ballot practice in Vermont includes listing your main party befoe any fusion endorements on the ballot, and in prævious elections that was always the Progressive Party. His campaign and office websites also both refer to him as a progressive. What qualifies as a main political party vs an other political affiliation here? there is more information in the section above and in the edit summaries on the main page — Preceding unsigned comment added by MCUSRAP (talk • contribs) 19:56, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Does it have to be either/or? Can't both apply? Like Bernie Sanders being both independent and a Democrat (after running in the primary)? --Hippeus (talk) 10:47, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It isn't that comparable of a situation. Sanders is listed as Democratic due to his running as one in the presidential race, but he only runs as an independent for senator despite running in and always winning the Democratic primary in Vermont. There isn't much to go off of regarding fusion candidates in general, so people often go based on self identifications. NY first district assemblyman Fred Thiele, for example, considers himself as part of the Independence Party despite winning most of his votes as a democrat, and thus is listed as Independence on his article page. In Vermont, a candidate can list as many primaries as they won, but that doesn't mean they are equally a member of all listed parties. Usually parties are given in the order you associate with them, with your main label coming first, in Zuckerman's case Progressive. This is reflected on the ballot, and also in party listings for the Vermont Legislature; the latter is referred to on the Progressive Party website. The concern here is simply whether one can be from a party with only write in status on the party's ballots, when they regularly gain ballot access for a different party. Do you have any ideas? Thanks, MCUSRAP (talk) 18:39, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Michael Bloomberg might be a better precedent than Sanders. Looks like Bloomberg's page treats his voter registration as his "real" party. For example, it says he stopped being a Republican and became an independent in 2007 because that's when he changed his registration. So it might be worth trying to figure out how Zuckerman is registered. Though a quick Google search isn't turning that up for me. Chris Hallquist (talk) 04:24, 23 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Chris Hallquist: There is no party registration in Vermont, according to the webpage of the Vermont Secretary of State. MCUSRAP (talk) 00:15, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but the legal arbiter on questions of joinder to any particular parties are the judiciary(s) in the jurisdiction(s), right? What does his party affiliation registration with the Secretary of State look like? Is it a multi-page document? EllenCT (talk) 03:21, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@EllenCT: There is no party registration in Vermont, according to the webpage of the Vermont Secretary of State. Therefore, Vermont Candidates are generally listed as part of whatever party they affiliate with on the general election ballot, or the first one listed if they affiliate with more than one. The dispute here settled mainly on whether the Primary Ballot or should be considered more important than the General Election Ballot. Candidates can only have thier name on the ballot for one party primary, so candidates often to choose the Democratic Party due to its greater visibility and influence. Senator Bernie Sanders runs in the Democratic primary to prevent another candidate from running as a Democrat in the General, but always runs as an Independent when the General Election comes, with the Democratic affiliation not being used by any candidate. There is some inconsistency with Zuckerman at the moment however, as he is listed as a democrat on some pages, such as the 2020 US gubernatorial election, as Progressive/Democratic on others, such as the List of Vermont Lt. Governors, and as Progressive on others as well, such as the 2020 Vermont gubernatorial election, although he is also listed as Democratic in the Results Section Ibid, and as a Progressive who runs in Democratic Primaries in a footnote Ibid. This inconsistency needs to be cleared up. What's your recommendation? MCUSRAP (talk) 00:15, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

So the question, I believe, is what should be Zuckerman's primary and secondary party. The answer is most definitely that Vermont Progressive Party is his primary party and the Democratic Party is his secondary party. That he is often listed as a Democract on ballots does not change the fact that his primary party is the Progressive Party. ImTheIP (talk) 09:19, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Since he's currently serving as the 84th lieutenant governor of Vermont, not 82nd & 84th lieutenant governor of Vermont. I believe we should have separate office headings. After he completes his tenure as the 84th lieutenant governor? then we can fuse the office headings together. GoodDay (talk) 15:58, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of David Zuckerman (politician)'s orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "VTsosr":

• From 2020 Vermont gubernatorial election: "Vermont Election Results - Official Results". Vermont Secretary of State. Retrieved September 17, 2020.
• From Phil Scott: "Vermont Primary Election Results". Vermont Secretary of State. Retrieved September 17, 2020.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 06:47, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]