Talk:Javakheti

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And why do you think that Greater Armenia (political concept) should not be included in this page? Also take a look at WP:OWN VartanM (talk) 23:30, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Gegelia, I acknowledged you request as valid as the article Greater Armenia (political concept) had no link to this article. This has been corrected. Now both articles have links to each other. Steelmate (talk) 23:03, 7 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Gegelia has never requested adding it to the article, imo. Steelmate, do you really find adding links to the irredentist concepts to this article so helpful? I don't think that it really helps to improve the article itself or adds anything good to Armeno-Georgian relations. --Kober^Talk 05:35, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia isn't about relation between nations, it is about facts. The link in See Also is helpful to find related fact in Wikipedia, as long as it is helpful it is worth having it there. If Gegelia has any objection let it be heard here on talk page. Steelmate (talk) 05:41, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Vartan, with respect to all my Armenian friends, of course you can include it, especially now, but please, be kind, be realistic, do not act in traditional way with big words like GREATER ARMENIA, just take a normal note... p.s. I've made some cleanups regarding incompetent information and national-addicted unreal sources that pull readers of the two nations to confrontation, the time will come. I can say, see, watch, hang on and tell that nobody pushes Armenians in here (that was said in previous version, it's nonsense and arrogance that kills me, NO!), especially my friends :) . With respect, GioMac (talk) 19:25, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Congratulations! Javakheti is a great article. Although, it needs improvement... I think the Greater Armenia is a greater concept and Javakheti should be kept small and as a separate article... I wish that more Armenians would show interest in Armenian history because if we don't know Armenian history, the Georgians, the Turks, and the Azerbaijanis would try to make claims to lands and structures that were part of Armenian history and should belong to the Armenians... For example, Lord Tatchat Azordats was the Castellan of Azord in Tayk, Lord Sahak Arsian was the Castellan of Artanuj in Tayk, Lord Hmayak, Lord Tathul, and Lord Musheg were Dimaksean Nobles, and they owned Bughkha or Boghkha territory in Tayk, Lord Sahak Arsian was the Castellan of Artanuj in Tayk, Lord Tathul and Lord Arhavan Vanandi owned Vanand and they were the Castellans of Kars, Lord Arshavir Kamsarakan, he was married to Lord Vardan Mamikonian's daghter, and he was the Castellan of Ani, Lord Khurs Gardmanian was the Castellan of Gardman, Lord Arshavar Arsharuni owned Arsharunik, Lord Hmayak Ashotsean and the Castellan of the Ashotsk, Lord Vahram Shirakatsi was the Lord of Shirak and Kangark, Lord Dirots Bagratuni was the Lord of Bagrevand, and the Gardmanian or Gardmantsi Nobles of Gardman, the Aranean Nobles of Arran of Aluank, the Gugaratsi Nobles of Gugark, and etc. They all were Armenian, but I read about Bagrationi, Arsiani, Dimaksiani, and others whom the Georgians claim as Georgian Nobles, and the Azeri claim Gardman, Arran, and other lands as lands of Azerbaijan, and that really upsets me that they lie publicly and get away with their lies... Armenians should wake up and start caring about what's Armenian and what should be Armenian, instead of talking about Greater Armenia without truly understanding what it means.

I added three paragraphs to the Javakheti article, provided references for my paragraphs, and I am entering it for discussion. I added the paragraphs 1, 3, and 4 and I pasted my paragraphs below for discussion.

According to history of Armenia and Georgia, Javakhos was the son of Metskheta and the grandson of Kartlos. Kartlos was one of the brothers of Hayk and the son of Torgom or Togarmah. Torgom was a descendant of Japheth, Tor-Gom meaning Torgom was the grandson of Gomer because Tiras was the son of Gomer and Torgom, Riphath, and Askanaz were the sons of Tiras. Hayk (the Forefather of Armenian)and his brothers, Kartlos, Bardos, Movakan, Lekan, Heros, Caucas, and Egros, together with their sons fought against the armies of Nimrod Bel. Hayk killed Bel in that battle, after which Hayk's brothers and Bel's subjects stopped the war and recognized Hayk as the King. (See www.rbedrosian.com and type in Bardos and click search; read Chapter 1. Armenia Before It Became Armenia, by Ghevond Alishan, published in 1904 in Venetia. History of Armenia, by Movses Khorenatsi, published in 1913 in Tbilisi. Armenian Mythology, by Mardiros Ananikian, Chapter Ten, Part One.

In the sources the region was recorded as Zabakha in 785 BC by the king Argishti I of Urartu. According to Georgian historians, Javakheti was one of the major places of Kingdom of Kartli from ancient times^{[citation needed]} and was in between of both East Georgian and West Georgian cultural and historical elements (Javakheti, as the whole south-western typonomic of Georgia has elements of Zani Language^{[citation needed]}). Historical Javakheti was divided as Upper javakheti (Akhalkalaki plateau) and lowland Javakheti (with canyon on left side of Mtkvari River).^{[citation needed]}

According to Movses Khorenatsi, Ushar Shirakatsi served King Vagharshak|Valarsaces of Armenia. King Valarsaces of Armenia was the brother of King Arsaces of Parthian Persia. For his bravery and loyalty, Ushar and the Shirakatsi Nobles received the lands in northern Armenia, from Tashir to Tayk south of Kur River, including Gugark, Shirak, Kangark (Eastern Javakheti and Ashotsk) and Koghb|Kola (presently District of Göle, in Turkey) near Tayk Province. References: History of Armenia, by Movses Khorenatsi, published in 1913 in Tbilisi.

Javakh and Tayk, together with Gugark, Lori, Gardman, Parisos, Artsakh, Syunik, Vaspurakan, Moks, Sasun, Taron, Turuberan, and Ayrarat, were part of the Bagratuni Kingdom of Armenia, an independent state established by Ashot I Bagratuni in 885. See Wikipedia article: Bagratuni Kingdom of Armenia.

Please share your thoughts about the three paragraphs that I added. I appreciate your feedback!

Sincerely,

Garegin Nalbandian

There is nothing said about ethnic cleansing of Muslim Georgians ( Javakhs )in Javakheti in the 19th century after Russians came. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.73.160.100 (talk) 11:21, 13 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In the introduction of this article I see the Georgians eagerly start it off as "historical province of Georgia". Just because Javakhk is currently within the borders of Georgia, it does not mean that it is a "historical province of Georgia". In the same way much of Armenia's historic lands today are in other countries, it does not mean they were that way in history, or even that those countries existed in the first place to have "historic provinces". 99.7.123.116 (talk) 20:51, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Historical province" means that it is not a current subdivision, and it's definitely "of Georgia". So what's the problem here? Regarding your claims of Javakheti being one of "Armenian's historical lands", I'd appreciate if you could recall when an Armenian polity was in control of Javakheti last time. And please provide reliable third-party sources listing Javakheti within the highly politicized semi-geographical category of "Armenian Highland". Thank you, --Kober^Talk 20:23, 23 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Historical" implies first and foremost there was a country named Georgia in history - and there wasn't. Georgia's borders were formed during the Soviet period. Soviet borders are not "historical". Secondly it implies that Javakhk was a place at one time inhabited only with Georgians, and we know this is not true. And third, "historical" implies that period of time when it was known earliest, and there is no evidence it was Georgian. In short, if you want to use the word "historical" - you could use Armenia, but not Georgia. Now is Javakhk a province of Georgia today? Yes. Was it historically that way? No. The article can start as "Javakhk is a province in Georgia" without historical reference. If you want historical reference, then it needs to be introduced as a historical part of Armenia and currently in Georgia. 99.7.123.116 (talk) 18:43, 24 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I asked you to provide sources for your claims. Please reread my previous post and provide references for your xenophobic claim that "there was no country named Georgia in history". Following your logic, Armenia's borders were also formed under Soviets, Armenian statehood in the region (with the obvious exclusion of Cilicia) had been dormant since the 11th century, and no country named Armenia controlled Javakheti since Tigranes the Great.--Kober^Talk 19:08, 24 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As with many (most?) content disputes, each of you appears to have somewhat of a point. From reading the article as it currently stands, I understand that Javakhk / Javakheti has been historically both a part of the kingdom of Great Armenia (a predecessor state to modern Armenia, am I right?), and also a part of the kingdom of Kartli / Iberia (one of the predecessor states to the mediaeval Kingdom of Georgia, which in turn is indirectly a predecessor state to modern Georgia). I also gather that Javakhk / Javakheti has, at various times, been settled by peoples of various ethnicities — Armenians, Georgians, Ottoman Turks (?), Greeks, and again Armenians — and that although the region is now part of modern Georgia, its present-day population is primarily ethnic Armenian. Please correct me if I'm missing something or messing something up here; I am neither Georgian nor Armenian, and my understanding of the Caucasus and its history is still sketchy.

I'm confused by the claim that there was never any historical country named Georgia — the existence of the mediaeval Kingdom of Georgia (which at its peak comprised most of the territory of modern Georgia, including Javakhk / Javakheti) seems to say otherwise. And while it does appear to be true that Javakhk was part of Greater Armenia before it was part of Kartli, I don't see anything indicating the region ever again came under Armenian rule after the breakup of Greater Armenia (ca. AD 400). If I've misunderstood, then the article probably needs more sources (always a good thing in any case, but especially here where heated disputes may be involved).

The article's section on the Soviet era is currently empty — an omission which really needs to be remedied ASAP, in order to provide historical continuity into the present day. This section would presumably also cover the short-lived Democratic Republic of Georgia. If, as I understand so far, Javakhk / Javakheti was primarily ethnically Armenian by this time, I hope this still-to-be-written section will help readers understand why Stalin did not either transfer the region to Soviet Armenia, or else deport its population to Armenia — both of which would have been quite in character for him AFAIK.

In any case, both of you (and anyone else who comes along) really need to discuss all this calmly and rationally, without resorting to edit warring. Edit warring is not acceptable on Wikipedia, even if you are convinced that you are right and that you are only trying to keep the article correct. If you find seemingly reliable sources that say very different things (quite possible, I imagine, for such a divisive topic as this), remember that the NPOV policy doesn't tell us to report only "the right" source — in case of a dispute amongst sources, we report all significant mainstream views and acknowledge that a disagreement exists. — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 05:15, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Richwales's observations and reasoning. As a compromise, I changed the wording from "historical province of Georgia" to "historical province in Georgia", but I fail to see any solid rationale behind the anon's accusations to say nothing about his/her offending assertion that Georgia is a Soviet creation. If needed I can cite the ancient-to-early-medieval chronology of the region's history and the fluctuating Armeno-Georgian border along this line from the seminal study by Cyril Toumanoff (a famous Armenophile, btw). The current border between Georgia and Armenia in Javakheti was established in May 1918 and finally in January 1919, when, after a brief war, Armenia retracted its claims to Javakheti in exchange of partial territorial concessions and a neutral zone in the Lori Province. I hope to find time to rewrite the history section as the sources are available and not that incompatible and irreconcilable.--Kober^Talk 16:42, 27 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean you want sources? I stated "Georgia" did not exist as a country name in history, and it is up to you to prove otherwise if you believe it did, because I stated a fact. Yes, Armenia's borders were created during the Soviet Union, as did the other two transcaucasian countries which were created and had never existed in history. Armenia did, and Soviet Armenia is a fraction of its true former self of the real Armenia. I did not say Georgians did not exist. I said what is today known as Georgia did not exist and therefore Javakhk is not a historical province of Georgia. In addition, contrary to what dishonest Georgian historians claim, Armenians have always existed in Javakhk from its earliest period. If you want to use the word "historical" then that means that it was part of Armenia, specifically ancient Armenia. Your compromise of changing the word "of" to "in" is also misleading because in that form it remains an incomplete statement. 99.7.123.116 (talk) 21:04, 30 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The line, According to the context, we are talking here about different Caucasian tribes, and it is entirely obvious that the historian does not consider the Gugars to be an Armenian tribe under the '5th reference' seems inaccurate. Is it from a translit-titled commentary "Istoria Armenii Favstosa Buzanda" of an unknown author? I don't think so. There are sources on the web telling that there is a 1912 publication of the work in Tbilisi, but nothing about Faustus's 1913 publication. So I'll make proper edits. 46.241.130.16 (talk) 18:48, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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Please instead or revert write down your arguments why it should be used as equal to Georgian name? When it is definitely not a WP:commonname --g. balaxaZe★ 18:44, 28 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User:Turnless as I've recommended stop edit-warring and write down your arguments here and only after that if we reach consensus make changes.--g. balaxaZe★ 19:27, 28 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You were the one who removed the information, so I don't see why you re-installed it to the article by edit warring despite the sources provded by Yerevantsi. We have both already stated our arguments in the edit descriptions. It also is in fact WP:commonname as most of the region's population is Armenian and that is what they would refer the name to. Your mention of WP:commonname here is also quite odd as that is the policy that you did not want to follow on South Ossetia. --Turnless (talk) 19:44, 28 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know what to answer, you are showing that you do not understand wikipedia policies, common for Armenians doesn't make it common name in English speaking world, and Yerevantsi provided sources that just prove that it is Armenian-used name and nothing more, I know and agree with the sources that Armenians use that name but here ends the weight of the sources nothing else.--g. balaxaZe★ 19:49, 28 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The local region name is relevant to the article and does make it a common one. Because of the fact that Armenians do comprise the majority of the region, the Armenian name for the region is common in the English language as well. However, it is less of an issue with common name as it is of relevancy to Armenia and Armenians, making the name obviously relevant as well. Your removal of the transliteration of the Armenian name also only leaves the translation to Armenian which is pretty dubious on an English Wikipedia as that does not help readers to understand how the name is pronounced in the language. --Turnless (talk) 19:54, 28 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It will not become common name just because you want to see it like that. I was editing what was wrong, as a consensus we could put translation of the Armenian name but you preferred reports.--g. balaxaZe★ 20:06, 28 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know why you put the same comment here and on my talk page. My response was "It is not a common name just because I "want to see it like that". Yerevantsi provided sources which back the use of the name. You asked to reach a consensus after you continued to revert to your edits despite the fact that you were the one who removed the information already present in the article before. I warned you that if youcontinue to do so, you will be reported, which is what I have done." --Turnless (talk) 20:20, 28 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Your revert of my edit was controversial and yes I wanted to make that change only after consensus but you were only reverting without any attempt of consensus, Yerevantsi's sources only prove that the name is Armenian used but not why we should bold it, show it as common in English speaking world.--g. balaxaZe★ 20:27, 28 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It was controversial to you only, it was backed by sources and was present on the article prior to your removal. If you wanted really wanted to make the change after the consensus you wouldn't have continued to revert, which you did. As I have already explained, the majority of the region is Armenian, so the Armenian name should be included as it is very relevant. Because of the fact that the Armenian name is different from the Georgian, it is bolded in English. This is why you should not remove it. --Turnless (talk) 20:32, 28 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The one who first reverted someone's edit it was you, don't try to fool people, you had not single source when reverted my edit, it needed only an explanation why you wanted to promote that name as common and to prove your changes rightness but you didn't provided and didn't try to reach consensus as well.--g. balaxaZe★ 20:40, 28 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I am not fooling anyone, you were the one who started this issue by removing valid information from the article, without even an edit description, here - [1]. You were the one who tried to change the article so instead of edit warring and pushing for your preferred edits, you should have reached a consensus first, but instead you continued to edit war and revert back to your changes. You did start a discussion, but only after reverting, and even then you continued to edit war to leave your preferred change as the one in place. --Turnless (talk) 20:55, 28 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I could be reverter if I have reverted someone's edit but I didn't, and there is a question how you saw that I've edited this article since you had no single edit before. It makes me think that you are WP:HOUNDING me.--g. balaxaZe★ 21:11, 28 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

First you removed the information and then your reverted 4 times after that. I noticed this after looking at your contributions after the issue on the South Ossetia page, plus we already had two ongoing discussions that you abandoned. --Turnless (talk) 21:33, 28 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Well some people have other things to do except Wikipedia, can you link what two discussions am I "abandoned"? Btw you made 3 same reverts, I also made reverts but there were not 4 similar reverts since I made compromise (not revert) after Yerevantsi, will be better if you edit and contribute wit good faith.--g. balaxaZe★ 21:41, 28 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Btw you had no single edit in South Ossetia article as well. I think still WP:HOUNDING. --g. balaxaZe★ 21:45, 28 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I have already said so many times that what you did was not a compromise but still a reversion back to your changes but only with Yerevantsi's sources. You still removed the information. The discussions I was talking about are Talk:Georgia (country)#Topography map and Template talk:Location map Georgia and while I was waiting for your response I saw that you were still editing and active on Wikipedia, so your sarcastic comment about having other things to do besides Wikipedia isn't really valid. Also, I do check the Georgia and its two breakaway republics of Abkhazia and South Ossetia articles quite often after the two discussions that you and I had regarding the issue of disputed borders, so no it is not me hounding you. --Turnless (talk) 22:01, 28 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I am  up to discuss @EtienneDolet.

One of the earliest Armenian sources, Faustus of Byzantium (the 5th century) writes: “Maskut King Sanesan, extremely angry, was filled with hate for his tribesman, Armenian King Khosrow, and gathered all of his troops—Huns, Pokhs, Tavaspars, Khechmataks, Izhmakhs, Gats, Gluars, Gugars, Shichbs, Chilbs, Balasich, and Egersvans, as well as an uncountable number of other diverse nomadic tribes, all the numerous troops he commanded. He crossed his border, the great River Kura, and invaded the Armenian country.”^[1]

Can you elaborate how is this related to Javakheti article?

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