Wikidata:Property proposal/value group number

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Generic

See User_talk:Ivan_A._Krestinin#Bot_edits_on_P5523 as the background of the proposal. GZWDer (talk) 16:24, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Thank you for setting up this property. To demonstrate the complexity of representing fanqie (Q1899324) using structured data, I have prepared the table below using readings listed in the Kangxi Dictionary (Q850590).

There are 9 pairs of data, each consisting of an initial and final character, and these 9 pairs can be further grouped into four equivalent pairs of data (A,B,C,D). Are there any existing properties that can be used to handle this situation? KevinUp (talk) 21:00, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps the value group number can be modified to "A1, A2, A3, B1, B2, C1, C2, D1, D2" or "1a, 1b, 1c, 2a, 2b, 3a, 3b, 4a, 4b" to mark the equivalence of certain data sets? KevinUp (talk) 21:12, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Notified participants of WikiProject Mathematics

for suggestions on how to handle this situation. The proposed property may also have other applications. KevinUp (talk) 19:35, 20 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

•  Comment @KevinUp: is the suggestion here to have a general mechanism to handle two-dimensional indexing, not just something specific to these characters? That sounds like a reasonable thing to do in principle, but in practice the items would still show up as a one-dimensional list within the Wikidata UI. "Series ordinal" doesn't have to be just a number, you could for example combine letters and numbers, or have two numbers separated by a comma or other special character. Is this really needed? ArthurPSmith (talk) 18:49, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  @ArthurPSmith: Yes, the idea is to have a general mechanism to handle two-dimensional indexing that can be applied not just to these characters. In the examples given above, "value group number" is used to indicate that group 1, which is represented by 王 (Q2391630) and 矩 (Q55806623) and group 2, which is represented by 王 (Q2391630) and 遇 (Q55806688) are distinct groups that are not the same. The "value group number" does not indicate any rank but is used to indicate distinction. KevinUp (talk) 20:40, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  To add another layer of complexity, in the table I have prepared for the item "笈", there are four different groups (A,B,C,D) and each group can be described by more than one method, e.g. in group D, 巨 (Q55414074) (series ordinal 1) + 業 (Q54873157) (series ordinal 2) and 極 (Q54879270) (series ordinal 1) + 業 (Q54873157) (series ordinal 2) are equivalent, so we could perhaps use a second character in the value group number, e.g. "4a", "4b" to indicate equivalence of the subgroups a and b within group 4. KevinUp (talk) 20:40, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• If you are using series ordinal like 3a or 3.4, they are not much machine readable or queryable. Although this proposal (with only one property) does not work well in more than two dimensions.--GZWDer (talk) 20:58, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  @GZWDer: To solve the issues of [1] series ordinal such as 3a or 3.4 not machines readable [2] the property in this proposal not working well in more than two dimensions, I suggest the following: KevinUp (talk) 17:45, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  1. Replace fanqie (P5523) with two new properties: initial fanqie character and final fanqie character (as originally suggested by you) - This is because initial and final fanqie have different properties, i.e. the initial character shares the same initial consonant while the final character shares the same vowel, consonant ending and tone with that of the queried item.
  2. Use series ordinal (P1545) for groups A,B,C,D in the example above (this would indicate that the fanqie readings are distinct).
  3. Apply the proposed property (value group number/group ordinal) to values that have the same series ordinal. This is analogous to A1, A2, A3 in the example above.

  For fanqie, values with the same series ordinal but different value group number/group ordinal are similar in a way, e.g. 其,極,忌 (initial fanqie from A1, A2, A3) all share the same initial consonant in Middle Chinese. KevinUp (talk) 17:43, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Thanks for the responses. So now I'm wondering, where did the proposed label "value group number" come from? Is that a common term used for these character representations, or is that something GZWDer came up with? If we are to do this I think I'd prefer a shorter name if possible. "group ordinal" perhaps? ArthurPSmith (talk) 19:19, 23 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  No, it's not a common term used for these character representations. I also prefer a shorter name such as "group ordinal" as long as it has the meaning "higher level of series ordinal". KevinUp (talk) 17:43, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• I remembered a similar situation at disjoint union of (P2738), where different sets are saved. A special value list of values as qualifiers (Q23766486) is used as a dummy value and actual list is saved as qualifier. It might be applicable here. It will look like 笈 (Q77040173)fanqie (P5523)list of values as qualifiers (Q23766486)follows (P155)巨 (Q55414074)followed by (P156)業 (Q54873157).  – The preceding unsigned comment was added by Midleading (talk • contribs) at 10:16, December 2, 2019‎ (UTC).
• @Ivan_A._Krestinin, GZWDer, KevinUp, Midleading:  Not done It's been a long time since any updates or comments on this proposal; we didn't seem to find a consensus on what to do here, however it looks like there remains a need for something like this. Please link any new proposal along these lines to this discussion. ArthurPSmith (talk) 17:58, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]