Talk:Rather Be

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Jenks24 (talk) 14:53, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Rather Be (Clean Bandit song) → Rather Be
• Rather Be → Rather Be (disambiguation)

– The Clean Bandit song was a huge hit all over the world - The Verve song only number 56 in the UK. The Clean Bandit song is one of only 149 million-sellers in the UK and will surely continue to be the more notable in the next few years. Unreal7 (talk) 16:50, 17 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose per WP:NCM, Rather Be (The Verve song) not only exists, as do the Mark Willis and Big Kenny songs in album articles, but also has an article. Also WP:RECENT In ictu oculi (talk) 22:04, 17 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. Why disadvantage Benassi, Mark Willis, Big Kenny The Verve fans? Would any of the fans of those ever heard of Clean Bandit? AT least now it says on the tin what it is. --Richhoncho (talk) 16:01, 18 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose: This is a totally routine disambiguation in general, WP:NCM aside.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  13:51, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved. (closed by a page mover) Omni Flames (talk) 00:26, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Rather Be (Clean Bandit song) → Rather Be
• Rather Be → Rather Be (disambiguation)

– Even the dab page is getting almost twice as many views as the Verve song, and the Clean Bandit song over 218,000.[1] Unreal7 (talk) 20:54, 5 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Support. Clear primary topic. Anarchyte (work | talk) 22:16, 6 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. The consensus is that the Clean Bandit song is the primary topic. (closed by non-admin page mover) -- Dane ^talk 03:37, 13 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Rather Be → Rather Be (Clean Bandit song)
• Rather Be (disambiguation) → Rather Be

– Per WP:NCM, and the fact that double the amount of users oppose the current format than support it. --Nevé–selbert 21:25, 5 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose - it's the primary topic, and will be for the foreseeable future. We established this last year. Unreal7 (talk) 21:30, 5 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Only one editor agreed with you, opposed to three that did not. @In ictu oculi, Richhoncho, SMcCandlish, and Anarchyte: Please comment on this, thanks.--Nevé–selbert 21:33, 5 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose with this song continuing to get 50x as many pageviews as the Verve song (the only other song with an article), this is still clearly the primary topic. Nohomersryan (talk) 21:56, 5 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. The Clean Bandit song is the primary topic. Anarchyte (work | talk) 00:58, 6 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Support because there are many songs by this name, and a temporary spike in the popularity of one band's song is WP:RECENTISM and meaningless. Our article titles should remain long-term stable as much as possible, not be renamed every month on the basis of Billboard Top 40 charts. Also, the Verve are clearly more notable than Clean Bandit; multiple Verve releases individually dwarf the sales of all CB materials combined. Even so, I wouldn't make a primary topic argument here at all. WP:PRIMARY does not refer to "what are people most looking for this week"; it's about long-term cultural significance (i.e., long-term reader search expectations). WP is not an entertainment industry battleground for marketers and fans to try to grab "promotional real estate".  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  06:40, 6 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  "There are many songs with this name" is an "other stuff exists" argument. Also it doesn't matter if other songs by the Verve are more popular than other Clean Bandit material, because their "Rather Be" song doesn't have a smidge of notability in comparison. Unreal7 (talk) 15:32, 6 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  because their "Rather Be" song doesn't have a smidge of notability. Then why does it has its own article? You sir, are spouting utter nonsense.--Nevé–selbert 19:10, 6 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  And badly misapprehending wikiwisdom: OTHERSTUFFEXISTS has nothing to do with this; it is the fallacy that that an article on a non-notable subject should be kept because there are other similar articles. The typical version is "because arguably non-encyclopedic material is found over there and hasn't been AfDed, you have to keep my questionably-encyclopedic material, too" (failure to understand that every case is addressed on its own merits and in due course). A variant is: "Because we have articles on some bands and CEOs, my articles about my garage band and about me as owner of my just-founded company have to be kept, too" (failure to distinguish notable from non-notable). Their OTHERSTUFFEXISTS fallacy relates in any way to this discussion.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  03:43, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  OK, not a smidge of notability "in comparison". Unreal7 (talk) 12:47, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Support, per SMcCandlish. The keyword is "long-term" and a generic popular title cannot be "long-term". --Richhoncho (talk) 17:34, 6 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per above. Life of Tau (talk) 18:18, 6 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  You mean, the baseless arguments that have been brilliantly refuted by SMcCandlish and others above?--Nevé–selbert 19:10, 6 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  You mean, the "brilliant refutation" that argued that because the Verve sells more records, their "Rather Be" is automatically the more notable one? Life of Tau (talk) 22:00, 6 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  That's not what I said at all, though. I said that this isn't a PRIMARY case. I also suggested that if it were, the odds that the new band's song is the primary topic would be low. I.e., it's a case that would have to be proven by reliable, non-ephemeral sources, to spell it out more clearly. Odds are that any given song on an album by The Verve, whose sales utterly dwarf those of anything by CB, is known globally and lastingly to a far larger number of people, whether it was a single or not, to spell it out even more clearly. But we needn't go there. It simply isn't plausible that a song temporarily popular right now by a virtual "nobody" band is the primary topic for a title that is a common song title of many notable recording artists. It is possible that it could become the primary topic, if CB achieve lasting fame and if the song in question turns out to be long-term influential, but that's a WP:CRYSTAL issue. Another way of looking at it: If Lady Gaga puts out a new single called "Top Cat", and it is very popular for a while, incoming search and pageview hits for "Top Cat" will for a short time be almost entirely for that song, not for Top Cat the cartoon, but we would not move the TV show article to "Top Cat (TV series)" and temporarily make the Gaga song be the primary topic. WP article naming just doesn't work that way.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  03:55, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  The thing about that statement is that it seems to focus on The Verve's song having a large amount of notability/pageviews already. It doesn't; it likely only occupied the undisambiguated title before Clean Bandit released their song because it was the only song called "Rather Be" to have an article then, not because it was an established primary topic. I agree that we have to watch out for recentism, but this song is three years old, and when competing against The Verve's song for both WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, it is clear that Clean Bandit win out, with far more pageviews and much greater cultural impact (see the charts section - Clean Bandit have got 7x platinum, charted high in multiple countries, and peaked at number 10 on the Hot 100, while The Verve made it to 58 on the UK Singles Chart and that's it). Taylor Trescott - ^{my talk} + _{my edits} 05:12, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  (Sorry, spent a considerable amount of time writing this reply before seeing Taylor Trescott's. It makes a lot of the same points, but I feel I brought enough new ideas to make adding it worthwhile). A little presumptuous, don't you think? Given your comment, one would think that the Verve is such a huge international phenomenon that even their sneezes are more notable than the entire discography of obscure indie group Clean Bandit. This "virtual 'nobody' band" has had two UK no. 1 singles with a combined 13 weeks at the top the charts, compared to the Verve's single week back in 1997. But like you say, we needn't go there. Instead of just posturing about what is more notable, let's bring some numbers into this. (Note: none of the following statistics on their own are necessarily indicative of anything, but together they may strongly suggest a trend). The official video for the Verve song has 1.4 million views on YouTube, while the Clean Bandit song has 433 million, making it the site's 233rd most viewed video as of this writing. The Clean Bandit song is certified triple platinum in the US, UK, Australia and Italy and platinum in four other countries; it is one of only 167 singles that have sold over one million copies in the UK. The Verve song has zero certifications. The Clean Bandit song peaked at number two in Australia, Belgium, France, Italy, New Zealand, and Switzerland, and topped the charts in Germany, Ireland, the Netherlands, and the UK, the last of which for four consecutive weeks, even managing to make the US top 10. The Verve song failed to chart in any of these countries except for the UK, where it peaked at 56. A Google search for "the verve" "rather be" returns 85,000 results, while searching "clean bandit" "rather be" returns 1.33 million. A Google Trends search comparing "rather be clean bandit" to "rather be the verve" shows that in the last five years the former has always had at least 90 times the search interest of the latter. In summary: this isn't even close. Not even a little. I can't wait to see the "reliable, non-ephemeral source" that proves that the Verve song, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, is the more notable one. I am a little puzzled as to this "temporary popularity" you keep referring to as this song was released nearly three years ago, but I assume that any recent increase in page views is because of the success of the group's latest release, "Rockabye", which is the current UK number 1. If this is what you mean, then I feel safe in betting that in a few months' time when interest in "Rockabye" has waned, views for this article will still dwarf that of the Verve song. Life of Tau (talk) 05:54, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  Meh. So CB are a little more popular, right now, than I thought. Still doesn't translate into long-term, global notability (though it might someday). Pageviews are only one tiny aspect of determining primary topic, and they don't work when one of them is a recent pop song; it's a temporary spike. You also completely misunderstood my point about the Verve song. It's not whether it charted here or there or not, it's that the Verve's sales of a single album (on which the song appears as well as having been a single) totally dwarfs all of CB's sales combined. It's basic math. Far more people own and have heard and are thus familiar with the Verve tune (either in single or album track form), regardless of chart position of the song, than have bought and have heard CB's music at all. But again, none of this is even relevant, because this is not a proper primary topic case. This is simply a quite common song title by numerous artists, and all songs by this title should be disambiguated. Pushing for CB's song being primary just because it was a hot single recently is recentism and seems also to smack of fan-gushing. (Before you ask, I don't like the Verve's work at all, to the extent it's even theirs. >;-)  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  22:41, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  I'd be inclined to agree that this isn't a primary case if the title was "I Need You", "Tonight", or "Baby"; these all are incredibly common song titles that have been used by many notable artists. This is not the case with "Rather Be"; even though the individual words that comprise it are fairly common, there are only two articles with the name; of the rest, only two appear on albums that are notable enough to have their own article. Other than yourself and Nevé–selbert, everyone seems to agree that this is an issue of primary topic, with the only song that could rival this one in terms of notability being the one by the Verve. If I understand your argument, your counter to all the evidence I have presented that the Clean Bandit song is the primary topic is that, at the end of the day, more people own the Verve song in terms of album and single purchases than do the Clean Bandit song. This could very well be true, but the numbers just don't agree with you. If we assume for the sake of simplicity that nobody has bought both the single and the album it came on, we can use the sales data and certifications given to the Verve's and Clean Bandit's album and single and compare them (I will use US and UK numbers because they are the most easily available). For the Verve: [Forth: UK Gold (100,000 — 299,999) + US 53,000] + ["Rather Be": No certs UK (0 — 199,999) + US (0 — 499,999)] = 153,000 (min) — 1,052,997 (max). For Clean Bandit: [New Eyes: UK Gold (100,000 — 299,999) + No US certs (0 — 499,999)] + ["Rather Be": 3x UK Platinum (1,800,000 — 2,399,999) + 3x US Platinum (3,000,000 — 3,999,999)] = 4,900,000 (min) — 7,199,996 (max). At a minimum, Clean Bandit's song has outsold the Verve's by a factor of 4.6 to 1. Even if you disregard all of that, if you are still somehow correct about the Verve's song being well known, then why hasn't that been reflected in any of the data I presented in my previous reply? Everything points to the Clean Bandit song being massively more popular and well known than the Verve's, hence it being the primary topic. If you have some data that shows otherwise, by all means present it, but I have a hard time believing that it exists. Your insinuation that everything I have said is the product of fan-gushing is disappointing (for the record, I don't particularly care for Clean Bandit's music, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy this song), because, from my perspective, I have gone out of my way to bring solid, objective, compelling data into the discussion, which you subsequently sniff at and then proceed to go on about how many more albums the Verve has sold without providing any evidence to support your claims. And finally, no, this is not a case of recentism; Clean Bandit's song has been out for three years, and any buzz for it has long died down. Just look at the official video's daily view statistics and you'll see that the current daily views are drastically lower than they were at its peak. Life of Tau (talk) 21:25, 12 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

•  Comment: for those arguing that this song is the WP:PTOPIC, I don't necessarily disagree with you. But it's completely irrelevant. Have a look at the move discussion at Talk:Imagine (John Lennon song)#Requested move as requested by In ictu oculi. If the resplendent Lennon composition isn't regarded per se as the primary topic for Imagine (song), how on earth can this (arguably less culturally significant song) be regarded as the preeminent one for Rather Be? The Verve is also a much more notable band than Clean Bandit. In a nutshell, the primary topic argument is a complete red herring.--Nevé–selbert 19:20, 6 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • As was pointed out in that discussion, WP:PTOPIC wasn't applicable in that case because the title was already Imagine (song), not simply Imagine. That's not the case here, so WP:PTOPIC can still come into play. What is irrelevant is whether the Verve is more notable than Clean Bandit; it doesn't make their "Rather Be" more notable than this "Rather Be." Life of Tau (talk) 21:17, 6 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I fail to see how these situations are even close to the same. Taylor Trescott - ^{my talk} + _{my edits} 05:12, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. Every reading of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC suggests the article's current title is accurate. 1: it has far more page views, that's certain. 2: it has more long-term significance. I'm not sure what Clean Bandit being less well known than The Verve has to do with the notability of the song, because the Clean Bandit song demolishes The Verve's in sales - compare the Clean Bandit chart vs The Verve's. I find that the above arguments seem to rest on The Verve's song being some monstrous chart-topper that has simply faded away, when that was never the case at all. The newer song (it's three years old now) is just simply far more notable. Taylor Trescott - ^{my talk} + _{my edits} 05:12, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  I beg you to look up the guidelines at WP:NCM. WP:PRIMARYTOPIC (as I understand it) only applies to particular songs with universally recognised, historical and aesthetical significance. As much as I think this song is a decent track, if Lennon's Imagine fails that hurdle, I cannot fathom as to how this song can.--Nevé–selbert 19:05, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  Big difference. The primary topic of "imagine" is imagination. The primary topic of "Rather Be" is this song. The Verve song bombed and didn't even reach the top 55. Unreal7 (talk) 22:56, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose per Taylor Trescott and others. This meets the definition of primary topic, and no evidence has been shown to counter that. The behavior of the nominator here is also troubling; see WP:BLUDGEON and WP:STICK. Calidum 02:08, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. Straightforward WP:PRIMARYTOPIC by usage and significance. Dohn joe (talk) 03:41, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment I opposed 1st RM, and of course didn't see 2nd attempt. Fully agree with @Neve-selbert: but can't be bothered to oppose this time. If there were films books and so on on the dab page then would be questioning the need to funnel all readers to a song. But among songs, less of an issue. There'll be another song with this title along in few years anyway, and then editors will have to go round putting (Clean Bandit song) back in all the pipelinks. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:03, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  We'll address it if it happens, then. Renaming articles in anticipation of future shifts in primary topic makes no sense; otherwise we should rename Bohemian Rhapsody to Bohemian Rhapsody (Queen song) just in case someone puts out a song that rivals its notability. Life of Tau (talk) 21:25, 12 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• @Unreal7, Nohomersryan, Anarchyte, SMcCandlish, Richhoncho, Life of Tau, Taylor Trescott, Calidum, Dohn joe, and In ictu oculi:
  • Idea: Just thought of a compromise proposal; per WP:NCM and WP:PRIMARYTOPIC we not only move this page to Rather Be (Clean Bandit song) but also redirect Rather Be to the 2014 song. Therefore, only this page will be moved and Rather Be (disambiguation) will remain at the same title. For a precedent, I'd invoke Revolver (album) and Imagine (album) (since both redirect to the Beatles and Lennon albums respectively, despite there being multiple other albums by different artists). I shall request an early closure if we can all agree on this.--Nevé–selbert 03:59, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • Why do that, though? The Revolver/Imagine redirects are redirects that point to non-primary topics, since Revolver (Beatles album) isn't the primary topic for "Revolver" because of revolver and "Revolver (album)" would be an inappropriate title per WP:PARTIALDAB, but it is ostensibly the primary topic for the term so it gets a redirect. Here, there is no such issue, nothing is blocking this song from having the title Rather Be. You would just be having disambiguation for the sake of it. Nohomersryan (talk) 04:22, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • No. Absolutely not. Unreal7 (talk) 09:33, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

      I'm trying to seek a common ground here. Your dismissal is predictably pernicious, disappointingly.--Nevé–selbert 22:20, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

    • I appreciate the attempt at compromise, but I agree with Nohomersryan - either the article is the primarytopic for "rather be" or it's not. If it is, then adding the disambiguation is not necessary, and not what WP usually does. And it doesn't follow WP:NCM either. So, I would not be in favor. Dohn joe (talk) 18:38, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • Ditto all of what Dohn joe said.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  22:44, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Alright, I give up. Will request closure of this move regardless, pretty fruitless to keep it open any longer given the heated opposition.--Nevé–selbert 22:23, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The seven-day period will be up tomorrow. This should all be closed by then anyway.--Nevé–selbert 22:27, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I appreciate the sentiment, but as I said before, the song by the Verve isn't remotely notable in comparison. Unreal7 (talk) 00:23, 13 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.