Talk:Syllable stress of botanical Latin

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Some questions:

• Is the usage of digraphs such as Æ useful in this context, although generally not permitted by the ICBN?

In Latin, digraphs are a typographic convention only. They have no other meaning. The prohibition in the ICBN is a necessary result of prohibiting letters that are ligatures, such as the æ of Scandinavian languages.

• Is the usage of the diaeresis (e.g. Isoëtes) useful in this context? (My answer: yes, it's very important)

It is supremely important, as it distinguishes separate vowels (as parts of separate syllables) from diphthongs.

• Should we list also plants with unambiguous stress i.e. mono- or disyllabic?

Especially given the AfD, the only examples given should be those that are non-obvious, basically words in which the penult has a long vowel.

• Should we link each entry to a page?

Sure, why not?

• Should this be only a list or also give information about etymology, when available? I mean, which is the better? (also consider the amount of time spent and the difficulties)

• Dendromécon
• Dendromécon (gr: δηνδρον/dēndron = tree + gr: μηκον/mēcon = poppy)

The etymology should be added to the appropriate articles.--Curtis Clark 05:19, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Done pages

Ábies Abutílon Ácer Áceras Achilléa Achnátherum Aconítum Ácorus Acróptilon Actæa Adenóphora Adenostýles Adónis Adóxa Ǽsculus Æthionéma Agératum Agrimónia Agropýron Agrostémma Agróstis Ailánthus Aíra Ájuga Álcea Alchemilla Aldrovánda Alísma Alliária Állium Álnus Alopecúrus Althǽa Alýssum Amaránthus Ambrósia Amelánchier Ámmi Ammóphila Amsínckia Anacámptis Anacýclus Anagállis Anáphalis Anarrhínum Anchúsa Andrómeda Andrósace Anemóne Antennária Ánthemis Anthéricum Anthoxánthum Anthríscus Anthýllis Antirrhínum Áphanes Ápium Apóseris Aquilégia Arabidópsis Árabis Árctium Arctostáphylos Aremónia Arenária Aristolóchia Arméria Armorácia Árnica Arnóseris Arrhenátherum Artemísia Árum Arúncus Asarína Ásarum Asclépias Aspáragus Áspera Asperúgo Aspérula Asplénium Astrágalus Astrántia Athýrium Átriplex Átropa Aurínia Avéna Azólla Baldéllia Ballóta Barbaréa Bártsia Bássia Bérberis Bertéroa Bétula Bídens Bífora Biscutélla Blackstónia Bléchnum Borágo Bothrióchloa Botrýchium Brachypódium Brássica Brómus 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Filipéndula Forsýthia Fragária Frángula Fráxinus Fritillária Fumána Fumária Gágea Galánthus Galéga Galeópsis Galinsóga Gálium Gaudínia Genísta Gentiána Gentianélla Geránium Géum Gladíolus Gláucium Gláúx Glebiónis Glechóma Globulária Glycéria Gnaphálium Goodyéra Gratíola Grœnlándia Guizótia Gymnadénia Gymnocárpium Gypsóphila Halimióne Hammárbya Hasquétia Hédera Hedýsarum Heliánthemum Heliánthus Helichrýsum Helictotríchon Heliópsis Heliotrópium Helléborus Hemerocállis Hepática Hermínium Herniária Hésperis Hibíscus Hierácium Hieróchloë Himantoglóssum Hippocrépis Hippóphaë Hippúris Hirschféldia Hólcus Holósteum Homógyne Honckénya Hordélymus Hórdeum Hormínum Hornúngia Hottónia Húmulus Hupérzia Hyacinthoídes Hydrílla Hydrócharis Hydrocharitácea Hydrocóthyle Hymenólobus Hymenophýllum Hyoscýamus Hypécoum Hypochǽris Hyssópus Ibéris Ílex Illécebrum Impátiens Ínula Ipomóéa Íris Ísatis Isoëtes Isopýrum Íva Jasióne Jovibárba Júglans Júncus Juníperus Jurínea Kálmia Kérnera Kíckxia Knáútia Kobrésia Kœléria Krascheninnikóvia Labúrnum Lactúca Lagarosíphon Lamiástrum Lámium Láppula Lápsana Lárix Lathrǽa Láthyrus Lavándula Lavatéra Lédum Leérsia Legoúsia Lémna Léns Leóntodon Leontopódium Leonúrus Lepídium Lepyródiclis Leucanthemélla Leucanthemópsis Leucánthemum Leucójum Leuzéa Léymus Ligulária Ligústrum Lílium Limodórum Limónium Limosélla Linária Lindérnia Linnǽa Línum Líparis Lístera Lithospérmum Littorélla Llóydia Lobélia Loiseléúria Lólium Lomatogónium Lonícera Loránthus Lótus Ludwígia Lunária Lupínus Lurónium Lúzula Lýchnis Lýcium Lycopodiélla Lycopódium Lýcopus Lysimáchia Lýthrum Mahónia Maiánthemum Majorána Maláxis Málus Málva Marrúbium Marsílea Matricária Matteúccia Matthíola Medicágo Melampýrum Mélica Melilótus Melíssa Melíttis Méntha Menyánthes Mercuriális Merténsia Méspilus Mibóra Mícropus Micropýrum Mílium Mímulus Minuártia Mœhríngia Móénchia Molínia Monárda Monótropa Móntia Mórus Muscári Mýagrum Mycélis Myosótis Myosóton Myosúrus Myríca Myricária Myriophýllum Mýrrhis Nájas Narcíssus Nárdus Narthécium Nastúrtium Neóttia Neottiánthe Népeta Néslia Nicándra Nicotiána Nigélla Nigritélla Nónea Núphar Nymphǽa Nymphoídes Ócimum Odonítes Œnothéra Omphalódes Onóbrychis Onónis Onopórdum Onósma Ophioglóssum Óphrys Órchis Oreóchloa Oreópteris Oríganum Orláya Ornithógalum Orníthopus Orobánche Osmúnda Óstrya Óxalis Oxýria Oxýtropis Pæderóta Pæónia Pánicum Papáver Paradísea Parápholis Parentucéllia Parietária Páris Parnássia Parthenocíssus Pediculáris Peltária Péplis Petasítes Petrocállis Petrorhágia Petroselínum Petúnia Phacélia Phaláris Phaséolus Phegópteris Philadélphus Phléum Phlómis Pholiúrus Phuópsis Phýsalis Physocárpus Phytéúma Phytolácca Pícea Pícris Pilulária Pinéllia Pinguícula Pínus Piptathérum Pístia Písum Plantágo Platanthéra Plátanus Pleurospérmum Póa Podospérmum Polemónium Polycárpon Polycnémum Polýgala Polygonátum Polýgonum Polypódium Polypógon Polýstichum Pópulus Portuláca Potamogéton Potentílla Pragmítes Prenánthes Prímula Pritzelágo Prunélla Prúnus Pseudórchis Pseudostellária Pseudotsúga Psýllium Pterídium Puccinéllia Pulicária Pulmonária Pulsatílla Pýrola Pýrus Quércus Radíola Ranúnculus Ráphanus Rapístrum Reséda Rhámnus Rhéum Rhinánthus Rhododéndron Rhodothámnus Rhús Rhynchóspora Ríbes Robínia Roríppa Rósa Rúbia Rúbus Rudbéckia Rúmex Rúppia Rúscus Rúta Sagína Sagittária Salicórnia Sálix Sálsola Sálvia Salvínia Sambúcus Sámolus Sanguisórba Sanícula Santolína Saponária Saturéja Saussúrea Saxífraga Scabiósa Scándix Schóénus Scílla Scírpus Scleránthus Scleróchloa Scolóchloa Scopólia Scorzonéra Scrophulária Scutellária Sécale Securígera Sédum Selaginélla Sempervívum Senécio Serrátula Sesléria Setária Sherárdia Sibbaldia Sícyos Siderítis Siegesbéckia Siléne Sílphium Sílybum Sinápis Síson Sisýmbrium Sisyrínchium Smýrnium Solánum Soldanélla Solidágo Sónchus Sórbus Sórghum Spargánium Spártina Spérgula Spergulária Spinácia Spirǽa Spiránthes Spirodéla Sporóbolus Stáchys Staphyléa Stellária Stípa Stratiótes Stréptopus Suǽda Subulária Succísa Swértia Symphoricárpos Symphyándra Sýmphytum Syrínga Támarix Támus Tanacétum Taraxácum Táxus Teesdália Telékia Tetragonólobus Téúcrium Thalíctrum Thelýpteris Thesíum Thladiántha Thláspi Thúja Thymelǽa Thýmus Tília Tofiéldia Tólpis Tórilis Tózzia Trágus Trápa Traunsteínera Tríbulus Trientális Trifólium Triglóchin Trigonélla Trínia Tripleurospérmum Trisétum Tríticum Tróllius Tropǽolum Tsúga Tuberária Túlipa Turgénia Tussilágo Týpha Úlex Úlmus Urtíca Utriculária Vaccária Vaccínium Valeriána Valerianélla Vallisnéria Ventenáta Verátrum Verbáscum Verbéna Verbesína Verónica Vibúrnum Vícia Vínca Vincetóxicum Vióla Víscum Vitaliána Vítis Vúlpia Wahlenbérgia Waldstéinia Wéigela Willemetia Wólffia Woódsia Wulfénia Xánthium Xeránthemum Zannichéllia Zostéra

abies, Abutilon, acer, Achillea, Achnatherum, acorus, Acroptilon, Actaea, Adenophora, Adenostyles, Adonis, Adoxa, Aesculus, aethionema, Ageratum, Agrimonia, Agropyron, Agrostemma, Agrostis, Ailanthus, Aira, Alchemilla, Aldrovanda, Alisma, Alliaria, allium, alnus, Alopecurus, Althǽa, Alyssum, Amaranthus, Ambrosia, Amelanchier, ammi, Amsinckia, Anacamptis, Anacyclus, Anagallis, Anarrhinum, Anchusa, Andromeda, Androsace, Antennaria, Anthericum, Anthoxanthum, Anthriscus, Anthyllis, Antirrhinum, aphanes, apium, Aposeris, Aquilegia, arabis, arctium, Arctostaphylos, Aremonia, Arenaria, Aristolochia, Armeria, Armoracia, arnica', Arnoseris, Arrhenatherum', Artemisia, arum, Aruncus, Asarina, asarum', Asclepias, Asparagus, aspera, Asperugo, Asperula', Asplenium, Astragalus', Astrantia, Athyrium, atriplex', atropa', Aurinia, Avena, Azolla, Baldellia, Ballota, Barbarea', Bartsia, Bassia, Berberis', Berteroa, Betula', Bidens, Bifora', Biscutella, Blackstonia, Blechnum, Borago', Bothriochloa, Botrychium, Brachypodium, Brassica', Bromus, Brunnera, Bryonia, Buddleja, Bulbocodium, Bunias, Buphthalmum, Bupleurum, Butomus, Cakile', Calamagrostis, Calamintha, Calammophila, Caldesia, Calendula', Calepina, Call, Callianthemum, Callitriche', Calluna, Caltha, Calystegia, Camelina, Campanula', Camphorosma, Cannabis', Capsella, Caragana, Cardamine', Cardaminopsis, Cardaria, Carduus, Carex, Carlina, Carpesium, Carpinus', Carthamus', Castanea', Catabrosa, Catapodium, Caucalis, Celtis, Centaurea', Centaurium, Centranthus, Centunculus, Cephalanthera', Cephalaria, Cerastium, Ceratocephala, Ceratophyllum, Cerinthe, Chaenomeles, Chaenorhinum, Chaerophyllum, Chamaecyparis, Chamaecytisus, Chamaedaphne, Chamaemelum, Chamaespartium, Chamorchis, Cheilanthes, Chelidonium, Chenopodium, Chimaphila, Chondrilla, Chorispora, Chrysopogon, Chrysosplenium, Cicendia, Cicerbita, Cichorium, Cicuta, Cimicifuga, Circǽa, Cirsium, Cladium, Claytonia, Cleistogenes, Clematis, Cnicus, Cochlearia, Cœloglossum, Coincya, Colchicum, Coleanthus, Collomia, Colutea, Comarum, Conium, Conringia, Consolida, Convallaria, Convolvulus, Conyza, Copriandrum, Corallorrhiza, Corispermum, Cornus, Coronilla, Coronopus, Corrigiola, Cortusa, Corydalis, Corylus, Corynephorus, Cotinus, Cotoneaster, Cotula, Crambe, Crassula, Cratǽgus, Crepsis, Crocus, Cruciata, Crypsis, Cryptogramma, Cucubalus, Cucumis, Cucurbita, Cuscuta, Cyclamen, Cydonia, Cymbalaria, Cynodon, Cynoglossum, Cynosurus, Cyperus, Cypripedium, Cystopteris, Cytisus, Dactylis, Dactylorhiza, Danthonia, Daphne, Dasiphora, Datura, Delphinium, Deschampsia, Descurainia, Dianthus, Dicentra, Dictamnus, Digitalis, Digitaria, Diphasiastrum, Diplotaxis, Dipsacus, Dittrichia, Doronicum, Dorycnium, Downingia, Draba, Dracocephalum, Drosera, Dryas, Dryopteris, Echinochloa, Echinocystis, Echinops, echium, Elaeagnus, Elatine, Eleocharis, Eleusine, Elodea, Elsholtzia, elymus, Elyna, empetrum, Epilobium, Epimedium, Epipactis, Epipogium, Equisetum, Eragrostis, Eranthis, Erechtites, Erica, Erigeron, erinus, Eriophorum, Eriophyllum, Eritrichium, Erodium, Erophila, Eruca, Erucastrum, Eryngium, Erysimum, Erythronium, Eschscholzia, Euclidium, Euonymus, Eupatorium, Euphorbia, Euphrasia, Fagopyrum, Fagus, Falcaria, Fallopia, Festuca, Filago, Filipendula, Forsythia, Fragaria, Frangula, Fraxinus, Fritillaria, Fumana, Fumaria, Gagea, Galanthus, Galega, Galeopsis, Galinsoga, Galium, Gaudinia, Genista, Gentiana, Gentianella, Geranium, Geum, Gladiolus, Glaucium, Glaux, Glebionis, Glechoma, Globularia, Glyceria, Gnaphalium, Goodyera, Gratiola, Grœnlandia, Guizotia, Gymnadenia, Gymnocarpium, Gypsophila, Halimione, Hammarbya, Hasquetia, Hedera, Hedysarum, Helianthemum, Helianthus, Helichrysum, Helictotrichon, Heliopsis, Heliotropium, Helleborus, Hemerocallis, Hepatica, Herminium, Herniaria, Hesperis, Hibiscus, Hieracium, Hierochloe, Himantoglossum, Hippocrepis, Hippophae, Hippuris, Hirschfeldia, Holcus, Holosteum, Homogyne, Honckenya, Hordelymus, Hordeum, Horminum, Hornungia, Hottonia, Humulus, Huperzia, Hyacinthoides, Hydrilla, Hydrocharis, Hydrocharitacea, Hydrocothyle, Hymenolobus, Hymenophyllum, Hyoscyamus, Hypecoum, Hypochǽris, Hyssopus, Iberis, ilex, Illecebrum, Impatiens, inula, Ipomoea, iris, isatis, Isoetes, Isopyrum, iva, Jasione, Jovibarba, Juglans, Juncus, Juniperus, Jurinea, Kalmia, Kernera, Kickxia, Knautia, Kobresia, Kœleria, Krascheninnikovia, Laburnum, Lactuca, Lagarosiphon, Lamiastrum, Lamium, Lappula, Lapsana, Larix, Lathrǽa, Lathyrus, Lavandula, Lavatera, Ledum, Leersia, Legousia, Lemna, Lens, Leontodon, Leontopodium, Leonurus, Lepidium, Lepyrodiclis, Leucanthemella, Leucanthemopsis, Leucanthemum, Leucojum, Leuzea, Leymus, Ligularia, Ligustrum, Lilium, Limodorum, Limonium, Limosella, Linaria, Lindernia, Linnǽa, Linum, Liparis, Listera, Lithospermum, Littorella, Lloydia, Lobelia, Loiseleuria, Lolium, Lomatogonium, Lonicera, Loranthus, Lotus, Ludwigia, Lunaria, Lupinus, Luronium, Luzula, Lychnis, Lycium, Lycopodiella, Lycopodium, Lycopus, Lysimachia, Lythrum, Mahonia, Maianthemum, Majorana, Malaxis, Malus, Malva, Marrubium, Marsilea, Matricaria, Matteuccia, Matthiola, Medicago, Melampyrum, Melica, Melilotus, Melissa, Melittis, Mentha, Menyanthes, Mercurialis, Mertensia, Mespilus, Mibora, Micropus, Micropyrum, Milium, Mimulus, Minuartia, Mœhringia, Moenchia, Molinia, Monarda, Monotropa, Montia, Morus (plant), Muscari, Myagrum, Mycelis, Myosotis, Myosoton, Myosurus, Myrica, Myricaria, Myriophyllum, Myrrhis, Najas, Narcissus, Nardus, Narthecium, Nasturtium, Neottia, Neottianthe, Nepeta, Neslia, Nicandra, Nicotiana, Nigella, Nigritella, Nonea, Nuphar, Nymphǽa, Nymphoides, ocimum, Odonites, Œnothera, Omphalodes, Onobrychis, Ononis, Onopordum, Onosma, Ophioglossum, ophrys, orchis, Oreochloa, Oreopteris, Origanum, Orlaya, Ornithogalum, Ornithopus, Orobanche, Osmunda, ostrya, oxalis, Oxyria, Oxytropis, Paederota, Paeonia, Panicum, Papaver, Paradisea, Parapholis, Parentucellia, Parietaria, Paris, Parnassia, Parthenocissus, Pedicularis, Peltaria, Peplis, Petasites, Petrocallis, Petrorhagia, Petroselinum, Petunia, Phacelia, Phalaris, Phaseolus, Phegopteris, Philadelphus, Phleum, Phlomis, Pholiurus, Phuopsis, Physalis, Physocarpus, Phyteuma, Phytolacca, Picea, Picris, Pilularia, Pinellia, Pinguicula, Pinus, Piptatherum, Pistia, Pisum, Plantago, Platanthera, Platanus, Pleurospermum, Poa, Podospermum, Polemonium, Polycarpon, Polycnemum, Polygala, Polygonatum, Polygonum, Polypodium, Polypogon, Polystichum, Populus, Portulaca, Potamogeton, Potentilla, Pragmites, Prenanthes, Primula, Pritzelago, Prunella, Prunus, Pseudorchis, Pseudostellaria, Pseudotsuga, Psyllium, Pteridium, Puccinellia, Pulicaria, Pulmonaria, Pulsatilla, Pyrola, Pyrus, Quercus, Radiola, Ranunculus, Raphanus, Rapistrum, Reseda, Rhamnus, Rheum, Rhinanthus, Rhododendron, Rhodothamnus, Rhus, Rhynchospora, Ribes, Robinia, Rorippa, Rosa, Rubia, Rubus, Rudbeckia, Rumex, Ruppia, Ruscus, Ruta, Sagina, Sagittaria, Salicornia, Salix, Salsola, Salvia, Salvinia, Sambucus, Samolus, Sanguisorba, Sanicula, Santolina, Saponaria, Satureja, Saussurea, Saxifraga, Scabiosa, Scandix, Schoenus, Scilla, Scirpus, Scleranthus, Sclerochloa, Scolochloa, Scopolia, Scorzonera, Scrophularia, Scutellaria, Secale, Securigera, Sedum, Selaginella, Sempervivum, Senecio, Serratula, Sesleria, Setaria, Sherardia, Sibbaldia, Sicyos, Sideritis, Siegesbeckia, Silene, Silphium, Silybum, Sinapis, Sison, Sisymbrium, Sisyrinchium, Smyrnium, Solanum, Soldanella, Solidago, Sonchus, Sorbus, Sorghum, Sparganium, Spartina, Spergula, Spergularia, Spinacia, Spirǽa, Spiranthes, Spirodela, Sporobolus, Stachys, Staphylea, Stellaria, Stipa, Stratiotes, Streptopus, Suǽda, Subularia, Succisa, Swertia, Symphoricarpos, Symphyandra, Symphytum, Syringa, Tamarix, Tamus, Tanacetum, Taraxacum, Taxus, Teesdalia, Telekia, Tetragonolobus, Teucrium, Thalictrum, Thelypteris, Thesium, Thladiantha, Thlaspi, Thuja, Thymelǽa, Thymus, Tilia, Tofieldia, Tolpis, Torilis, Tozzia, Tragus, Trapa, Traunsteinera, Tribulus, Trientalis, Trifolium, Triglochin, Trigonella, Trinia, Tripleurospermum, Trisetum, Triticum, Trollius, Tropǽolum, Tsuga, Tuberaria, Tulipa, Turgenia, Tussilago, Typha, ulex, ulmus, Urtica, Utricularia, Vaccaria, Vaccinium, Valeriana, Valerianella, Vallisneria, Ventenata, Veratrum, Verbascum, Verbena, Verbesina, Veronica, Viburnum, Vicia, Vinca, Vincetoxicum, Viola, Viscum, Vitaliana, Vitis, Vulpia, Wahlenbergia, Waldsteinia, Weigela, Willemetia, Wolffia, Woodsia, Wulfenia, Xanthium, Xeranthemum, Zannichellia, Zostera, —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aelwyn (talk • contribs) 10:38, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If we want a list, then we can make a list of ...., but this is an article, and not an appropriate place, imo, for a complete dictionary of syllabication for Botanical Latin. KP Botany 00:17, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest this be moved to Syllable stress of Botanical Latin. KP Botany 00:25, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm fine with this.--Curtis Clark 05:19, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That could be OK if we don't want a list and the article explains that the pronunciation of non classical terms of botanical Latin is more troublesome. I don't care that much about the title, anyway. Aelwyn 06:45, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I think that incomplete coverage of the non-Classical pronunciations is a foregone conclusion. Thanks for commenting. KP Botany 21:09, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As the person who proposed the AfD for this article, I am very pleased with the way it turned out. You guys did I great job at turning this into a good Wikipedia article. tdmg 02:11, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Feel free to copyedit my prose though. Yes, it works as an article, and I can't imagine why Aelwyn was the only one to think of the appropriateness and utility, but it simply doesn't work as a list on Wikipedia. KP Botany 02:15, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Something like this?

Campanula (Cam-pá-nu-la) is one of several genera of in the family Campanulaceae with the common name bellflower. It takes its name from their bell-shaped flowers, and campanula is Latin for "little bell".

Excellent, this would allow the information to reside in individual articles. I wonder if it might not be worthwhile to create a template for the syllabification that would more automatically create the link to this article (kind of like the IPA template).--Curtis Clark 14:12, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I'll start to add the info to some articles I consider important. Probably a template is not worthwhile, the job can be done by copy-paste Aelwyn 15:19, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I notice in the list above "Woódsia", which to me exemplifies the sort of thing we shouldn't include. Although the "oo" in the English name Woods is close to a pure vowel (not even a diphthong), (1) accenting the second "o" could imply that the two "o"s are in separate syllables (woh-ODE-zee-uh), (2) pronunciation of botanical names not derived from Latin or Greek opens a can of worms, and (3) the simple rule that the "i" in the genus termination of a personal name is always short accounts for all these cases.--Curtis Clark 14:38, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I have not written the list myself, so there can be many of these. Thank you Aelwyn 14:53, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Shouldn't the page title be Syllable stress of botanical Latin, not Syllable stress of Botanical Latin? Or is "Botanical Latin" a well-known proper noun, like Classical Greek or Pig Latin? I'm not going to start a WP:RM without knowing anything about botany, but if someone else wants to, please do. --Quuxplusone (talk) 21:52, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is in fact a well-know proper noun, referring to the "dialect" of Latin used in botanical description, botanical names, and at one time in most botanical publication.--Curtis Clark (talk) 21:57, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This seem like an awfully narrow topic. I'm not likely to do it myself, but it seems like the article could be expanded to focus more broadly on pronunciation of Botanical Latin names. There are issues like the can of worms with names not of Latin origin (e.g. Woodsia) mentioned above, regional differences among botanists in Latin pronunciation (e.g., whether or not "c" is always pronounced as "k"), etc.. Plantdrew (talk) 22:51, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]