If you've been anywhere near AliExpress recently, you'll surely have noticed a proliferation of modded Saturn consoles which have had their CD drives removed and are primarily intended for use with a Saroo flash cart, which allows all titles to be loaded from the console's cartridge slot.
There's a flood of these hacked systems coming out of China these days, often with transparent cases which show off the Saturn's internals. The idea is that by using a Saroo to load games, you don't need the CD drive, effectively making it a "Saturn Mini" due to the reduction in height. Some systems even come with bolt-on LCD monitors.
It's been assumed by some people that the consoles used in these mods have faulty CD drives (something we're not entirely sure is the case, given the reputation AliExpress modders tend to have these days), but even so, members of the retro gaming community are coming together to voice their concern with the practice, encouraging people to avoid buying them.
"Temporarily breaking my Twitter death to discourage the Saturn scene from buying these 'mini Saroo Saturns' that keep popping up on Ali Express and the like," says @PandaMoniumGR, creator of that amazing Sega Rally documentary you might have seen recently. "I do not like the idea of hacking up the limited functional Saturns we have left and locking them away to Saroo use."
Modder @Voultar agress:
I'm going to co-sign this. All of those garbage 'portabilizer" consoles sold on Aliexpress are far more destructive than they are useful. There are far few Sega Saturn units in the wild than say Game Boys so it's not quite the same thing when you take a unit out of circulation.
Aware that many people might compare this to the rampant Game Boy modding scene, @Voultar argues that it's not a fair comparison to make:
Those mods are overwhelmingly reversible. You can keep your stock shells/buttons/components. The IPS/OLED replacement screen is basically a drop in at this point and you can effectively revert recently modded units back to stock form.
Saturn is believed to have sold just 9.26 million units during its lifetime (some insist it was more, but it's still much less than the Game Boy), so there's clearly a more pressing need to preserve the units that remain in active use.
CD drives fail, sure, but they can be fixed – and given that the Saroo cartridge requires the user to make zero modifications to the base system, it's somewhat puzzling to see this trend of hacking Saturns to use with the cart. You're effectively making the Saturn less useful, as it will no longer have the option of playing physical discs.
Still, some Saturn mods can look pretty cool – although it should be noted that Wesk's Saturn Slim is only a concept for the time being, and is just a shell; it requires the end user to supply the internals.
[source x.com]
Comments 47
Hmm but does Aliexpress buy out defective Consoles off the Market?
Sounds not so plausible.
Would be really interesting to see where they really get the Stock from.
Oooh, but at least its 100% accurate timing blah blah
Seriously, you'd think Aliexpress were hacking wild tigers up and selling them as cubs.
Im going to say the ones shown in the picture look awesome and this article has probably done more to worsen the problem by advertising - i had no idea these were available
Personally I think these things are pointless and also ugly as sin. What's the point of putting in a window to 'see the console's insides' if you hack half the insides out in the process?!
Strange.. two days ago posted a similar article about a well-known modder working on a similar console with zero negativity, but someone in China produces similar machines and suddenly a ton of hate and negativity.
Make up your minds.
I don't have a strong opinion on this. I get the preservation argument as far as keeping as many OG Saturns in the wild as possible, but the Dreamcast sold fewer units than the Saturn and I had no qualms about modding one to work with an ODE. So am I guilty of reducing the supply of DCs on the planet by one?
That said, the disc drive argument is weak. In the long run, trying to maintain CD-ROM functionality on Saturns is a losing battle. Sure, they can be fixed. But optical media itself is fragile and a terrible option for long-term preservation of anything.
I already got a Saturn mini, it’s called a computer with retroar-
@flibblesan That is exactly what I thought. How can one be amazing and the other be bad? That system also cut down and discarded much of the internals and the case in order to cut down the size and make it smaller but that got praised and this is considered bad for simply removing the CD drive.
I'll do what I want =)
Mister and Mister PI are far better routes for Saturn now, and they have HDMI and RGB out too. Or just plain old emulation of course.
Can't see why using original hardware with an OSCC etc. are that much better than FPGA (unless you are uber purist).
Hehe, yeah sure. My guess is, that it has more to do with the jacked up prices of the disc based games that will surely plummet once people get rid of their drives or start out with no drive at all. Poor "collectors"
I don't agree with PandaMoniumGR / Voultar. This is fine.
At the end of the day the optical drive is just a means of getting game data into the console. We can live without them now that we have ODEs. This is still original hardware providing an authentic experience.
So what if the console can't use CDs? Prices for original copies are out of reach, and if you're using CD-Rs you might as well use an ODE. Which is a superior method anyway.
And what's more, there are more than enough Saturns out there anyway for people that do insist on an optical drive, they're easy to get hold of. They're not all going to disappear because people are doing this.
This is a total non-issue and a huge overreaction.
I wonder how many of these they can produce. It's probably not going to amount to much. I do wonder where they're getting the systems or parts at low enough cost to make this viable. They could be new-old stock, damaged stock, surplus boards, along with broken systems, perhaps otherwise meant for electronics recycling. I don't love the idea of good whole systems getting sacrificed for stuff like this, but that may not even be the case. This might actually be salvaging systems and keeping more out there, even if not in original form. Of course, there are far better ways to play Saturn than this. I know Saturn has a reputation for being hard to emulate, but that reputation is from almost a decade ago and is outdated. Saturn emulation took a big step forward around 2018 and a lot of modern hardware can run it easily now. It has only gotten easier since then as I assume further optimization has been made. Then there's the FPGA side which is also a good way to do it if the cores are in good shape.
Incidentally, I have two Saturns, my original from 1995 and a model 2 I got in 2015 because my original one stopped reading discs(could be a few things). That second one developed issues with the power supply a few years later. My original Saturn also needed two trips to the warranty department back in the day. I love the Saturn and I may just be an outlier as I haven't heard a lot of stories like that, but it was easily the most troublesome system for me.
I've been using multiple Fenrirs for years now quite happily. I kept my CD drives but I probably won't use them.
@segasteve big difference between a DIY who would most likely retain their original parts, and a reseller harvesting existing models and not having any idea on what is going on with the PSU, shell, or CD Drive. Let's be real in that it is not exactly plentiful. The costs of the consoles have essentially doubled from 10 years ago because of demand going back up for them, and folks like Nick and I are thinking about the Saturn again 10 years from now as more systems start dying and supply continues to dwindle even more.
Eh, it is what it is. Most of these consoles, if they had made it into the hands of retro enthusiasts, would have ended up with mods and or ODEs installed anyway. The end result is still that a real console is in the hands of a real person who wants to play it. This is mountain-out-of-a-molehill territory.
I think everyone who wants a saturn badly enough probably has one, But I get people's point.
The saturn was a well built system. I have a model 1 and a model 2 modded for imports which still work fine. My first model 2 saturn did go wrong after about 10 years of service it developed some kind of fault where the graphic display incorrectly on screen. I tried to have it repaired years ago but was told it was unrepairable.
But they should not be breaking down saturn to make cheap version which use iso.
I do wonder why nintendo and sega don't get in on the act and start making new real Saturn and Snes with HDMI outputs. Surely their is a market for them.
Just make more Saturns, bing bang boom so simple
Personally I don't really care for these things
I like the Saroo it's a non invasive way to play iso's and I can stil keep the disc drive in my Saturn, in case I feel like playing a disc based game.
But these mods don't do much for me.
The Biggest take away from this is got is: for gods sake Sega ,take notice, there is a demand for a new Saturn console get off your arse and do something !
@flibblesan Probably due to them being part of a circle. With China mods it's easier to criticise.
I still have no idea why that Voultar guy blocked me.
The Saturn isn't unobtanium, some of them getting turned into these isn't the end of the world. I think there are plenty of people out there who want to play Saturn games on real hardware, but don't want to pay $500 for a copy of Panzer Dragoon Saga. This is a decent solution for those people. Even better if these are parts machines, although who knows on that front.
Anyway, if it's removing barriers to getting folks into the hobby and specifically the Saturn, I don't see it as being all that bad. My Saturn, and I'm guessing most people's Saturns, aren't exactly museum-grade pieces anyway.
Voultar is the biggest winger in all of retro gaming. And what happend to him packing up after his office was "destroyed" This is just a classic example of retro gaming gatekeepers those modded consoles have been on aliexpress for over a year. Just because they are not being manufactured by one of the self important pillars of American retro gaming modders people now have decided they are a problem.
@slider1983 Voultar is the biggest winger in retro gaming
@flibblesan totally. Just a classic example of retrogaming gatekeeping. There's some amazing stuff coming out of China in retrogaming these days.
Japanese Saturn consoles actually go for pretty cheap, honestly. These things (all "retro" consoles minus the very best selling ones, like PS2, Wii) are going to get rarer and rarer, but I doubt this will have a huge impact overall. Machines dying and not getting repaired is/will be the biggest problem. And that's why I own four Sega Saturns.
@YoureNotAJournalist you joined this site 30 minutes ago... did you get banned and make an alternate account just to leave a hate comment?
Who's really jobless here lmao
The only mini Saturn I'd ever buy would be a handheld Saturn system crammed into a 3D Saturn controller. I've even thought of a whole design for it. It would have a chargeable battery, a circular lid covering all of the buttons, a screen on the underside of that lid which even comes with simulated CRT shader setting, then lastly, a second release button below the start button that lifts up the whole front face plate, revealing an ODE disc drive. The catrige port would be on the back.
I don't understand, they're making Saturns useful again and that's a bad thing? Like I get it, you want to preserve history or whatever, but selling the devices in the form they're now in gives those old systems new life and allows the owner to play the entire Saturn catalog without fear of the system slowly dying and unable to read discs anymore.
Sure, it's a little sad to not be able to play the actual physical discs anymore. But what's the big deal? Keep the physical games you have and display them how you please. And just use a digital copy to play. I truly don't get the issue here.
@duffmmann The issue is that collectors jacked up prices for second hand copies in order to resell with profit in the future. Consoles without drives hurt their "business-tactics".
@duffmmann they aren't making Saturns useful again, they are making Saturns less useful. This isn't done by some ethical group looking to give new life to broken Saturns.
@SlangWon This hurts people who want to buy Saturns in the future and have to pay jacked up prices instead of affordable prices because supplies of the system are high.
@plorp I very much agree it's a gatekeeping YouTuber circle. They can't have Aliexpress doing what they're doing. 😆
@knight0fdragon "Supplies of the system are high"? How does that work? Given the facts that Sega stopped producing consoles long time ago and the circulating hardware dies eventually, supplies go down, not up. I can tell you from experience that the drive usually dies first. So if you can play games without it, get rid of it. Anybody who repairs used Saturns and sells them is raising the system from the dead. Whether it's an individual or AliExpress.
@SlangWon didn’t say supply goes up but regardless manufacturing is not the only way supply goes up. Manufacturing is how the overall supply increases, but what is on the market always fluctuates by who is buying and who is selling.
What makes you think they are raising systems from the dead? These folks are taking working Saturns with working drives and turning them into these “new” consoles. It is killing the overall supply, not the market supply.
@knight0fdragon They are taking what they can get for a low price. Mainly defective ones, especially ones with a defective or broken disc drive. Of course they are raising them from the dead because these drive-less Saturns are doing exactly the same thing as the original ones - they play Saturn games on real hardware. The only thing this is truly killing are the obscenely overpriced second-hand game discs. And this I welcome.
@SlangWon no they are not and you have zero evidence to even support this claim. JFC the lengths people go to spread delusion.
The "Sega Saturn Slim" Is Now Our Most-Wanted Hardware Of 2024. "Won't require any board trimming"
by Damien McFerran Tue, 1:30am
And then the next day...
Please Stop Buying Unofficial "Saturn Mini" Consoles. Hacked consoles are "far more destructive than they are useful"
by Damien McFerran Wed, 9pm
Pick a side, Damo!
@SlangWon aww capitalism at work. What a shame.
@knight0fdragon if I were to buy a Saturn today, this is absolutely how I'd want it to be out of the box. You don't see value, I do. I'm sure all 5 people that want to buy a pristine Saturn today as it was when it was relevant are going to cry themselves to sleep over this non-issue.
@knight0fdragon Even assuming that they are taking fully functional Saturns, how many of these things are being made? They could make thousands of these and not deplete the overall supply meaningfully. Going through AliExpress, they tell you how many have been sold. It's 135 units currently across all the SKUs a search brought up for me. That's not a number that's going to impact the supply or price of unmodified Saturns in any way. It's also pretty plausible, in those quantities, that they were machines with bad drives. They're selling for about $200-300 CAD right now, seemingly depending on if they come with a monitor. Unmodified Saturns with working drives are going for similar prices, if not more, so it wouldn't make any sense to use those. Even if they were getting a good price, they'd get a much better price on faulty machines and higher margins as a result, so that's what they'd use to do this.
It is not just what they are doing. It is the next person that does something similar, and the person after that, and the person after that.
You can get Japanese Saturns for $20 still, if you are paying $200 you are not looking in the right places.
That margin you are thinking of, is a few dollars at most.
Less than 200 sold.
If you're still finding 20 dollar Japanese Saturns, then there are loads of them still kicking around. This isn't affecting the market for original hardware in any meaningful way, and again, in such small quantities, the use of faulty units is entirely plausible. Even if your margin is only a couple bucks more by using faulty units, you're going to use them; the goal of a business is to make the most money possible, not "enough" money. And seeing as you can sell one of those functional 20 dollar Saturns for nearly or as much as these Slims are going for, while a parts unit goes for about 30-60 bucks, why would anyone put the work into modifying a fully functional Saturn when they could just flip it with virtually no labour, time, or material cost?
@city952 yes that is what i thought too..
and to be honest, i do not agree with the stance... why is 'their'us eof a saturn inherently better than the enjoyment of someone else....
@knight0fdragon I think perhaps you underestimate the cost of items and the cost of labor/time/overhead to make something like this. The proof you're looking for is the basics of capitalism. Amazon or Walmart are not selling you products for $3 that they paid $1.50 for, they paid maybe .10 cents and sell it for $3.
It would make little business sense to buy working Saturns at retail prices and then put all the time/energy into something like this(3d printing, sourcing chips, soldering, designing the console, testing, etc.). That's a lot of work for something that sells for less than $200. And they are selling so people want them.
The only way this Aliexpress seller makes a profit is if everything they get is dirt cheap in addition to the labor and overhead costs(employees, rent for work space, utilities, shipping supplies, what ever safety regulated requirements/supplies they may have, etc.) . The odds that they're get working consoles so they can permanently turn them into something else is slim to none. It's possible, sure, but I would bet they got a pallet of "junk" consoles for maybe $10 each.
Also the $28 Saturns on eBay(if that's what you're referring to with $20 Saturns) shipping is $40 so after taxes you're paying over $70 for console only. That's the catch on eBay, the seller can charge any amount for shipping, make a profit that way and keep the item price low.
Hmm, I can see both sides to this. On one hand, its good if they're taking broken Saturns, and giving them second life, I like this. On the other hand, the issue is that hypothetically if this continues long term then eventually 'traditional Saturns' will be harder to come by in the future.
This doesn't affect me personally since I own 4 Saturns (2 US, 2 JP), and I have a Fenrir, so I'm set. But if you think of the worst case scenario, this could sort of be an issue. But then again, if they aren't making a lot of these, then it could be nothing in the end.
As the years go on, I can see many people using FPGA replacements instead of original hardware. I myself am heavily considering the upcoming portable MiSTer device, where I can play Saturn on the go.
More than 9 million Saturns were sold...! Its unreasonable to discourage people from buying one of these.
If you want to argue about issues with the Saturn's legacy... I suggest you take it up with SEGA directly.
How many sodding Mega Drive consoles/collections/remakes/licensed "knock offs"! Licensed! It's unbelievable what's out there that SEGA themselves have approved and encouraged!
The same games... over and over and over and over again. Golden Axe. Sonic. Streets of rage. Ecco The Dolphin.... over. And. Over. Again.
Yet the Saturn? Diddly squat. AliExpress are not the problem... SEGA are the problem.
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