Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan/Archive/July 2011

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Hey, I've been doing a lot of slow addition to the Tecmo Koei article, and I finally managed to track down a source that mentions the name of the founder and the date and cause of his death, http://www.tecmo.co.jp/company/pdf/2006072102.pdf. Problem being, I don't speak Japanese and Google seems to think his name is "Bin man Kakihara (who Yuanmei oysters)". The text is "柿原 彬人（かきはら よしひと）", and I think it is Akira Kakihara or Akira-Jin Kakihara, that is as close as I'm able to get. If someone could tell me his actual name, I'd much appreciate it. ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 12:39, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Well, the text you quoted says his name is Yoshihito (よしひと) Kakihara (かきはら). ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 15:56, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

I corrected the name on the article. Ja WP has an article on him. Oda Mari (talk) 16:18, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks! When I couldn't make sense of it, I tried just translating individual characters, and Google said 彬 could mean Akira, but obviously I was way off. This is very helpful. ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 19:37, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

By itself, it certainly can be pronounced "Akira", but this is a compound name, and therefore the likely pronunciations are more limited. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 07:22, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

The on-going development of Toyohara Chikanobu would likely benefit from peer review -- see Wikipedia:Peer review/Toyohara Chikanobu/archive1.

My guess is that it is ripe for Good Article review -- see Talk:Toyohara Chikanobu/GA1. What do you think? --Tenmei (talk) 20:03, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

I'll have a look at it. Not sure whether articles should be at peer review and WP:GAN at the same time. bamse (talk) 21:36, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Since I am not experienced with the good article process, I will leave some comments at the peer review page. bamse (talk) 21:37, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Done.bamse (talk) 22:21, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Would someone be as kind as to revert these two edits on the Japanese Wikipedia? A pair of IPs have applied WP:SPAM links advertising their own online store, and is spoofing the "taobao.com" official link, as if to fool someone into clicking the link to their own page in bad faith. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 04:18, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Done.Michitaro (talk) 06:55, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

I just created this one, if there are any updates, I would love to know what he's doing!--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 07:29, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Interesting. You should probably add some inline citations for "he was a subject of national press attention." and for "recognized as a hero" in order to prevent issues with notability. bamse (talk) 09:36, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Is this the guy who blew up and resigned today?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 15:38, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

What is the reading (and meaning) of 伝芳堂 at Anraku-ji (Ueda) ([1]? bamse (talk) 17:04, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

A likely reading is Denpou-dou. The first kanji means legend, (oral) tradition, or tell. Second kanji means perfume, fragrance, or something favorable. The third kanji means hall or some other profound structure. If I was going to interpret the meaning, I would say it could be called the "Hall of Legendary Fragrance", perrhaps a reference to the incense that gets burned there? Other writers may have other interpretations, but which shouldn't differ significantly. Boneyard90 (talk) 18:26, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Boneyard90. Though it's a blog, it also says Denpō Dō. As for "den", the kanji is 傳. Oda Mari (talk) 18:37, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. Could it be a reference to the former priests (whose statues are enshrined there). bamse (talk) 19:44, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

No idea there. Neither kanji appears to be the priests' names, so it seems an unlikely connection. Boneyard90 (talk) 23:41, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Alright. I went with just the Japanese name (+Romaji) to be on the save side. bamse (talk) 23:47, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

In this WP:navbox/table, would alphabetic order be an improvement?

For me, the current ordering in this table is best; but what about those who know nothing about Japanese history?

A set of related questions concern the provinces. Would it be better to introduce alphabetic order in each of the regional segments? --Tenmei (talk) 04:30, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I say that since it's the English Wikipedia, using the English alphabet, put it in alphabetical order (though you might want to place Kinai AFTER Hokurikudō). Boneyard90 (talk) 04:39, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I disagree with the change. The en alphabetical order is not systematic for this template. It destroys the sorting order of 五畿七道. Oda Mari (talk) 05:48, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't think the alphabetic order is an improvement in this case. If the original list is in gojūon ordering, then changing it to alphabetical is an improvement because the original ordering is meaningless to non-Japanese speakers. But changing the topic specific ordering to alphabetical ordering reduces the usefulness of the template to those who know the topic. At the least, Hokkaido and pre-Taihō Code should be clearly separated from the gokishichdō and preferably kinai form shichdō. Circuits within shichdō and provinces within each region may be sorted alphabetically as their ordering is not apparent. --Kusunose 07:41, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand above discussions. The alphabetical order is the most common practice throughout the English articles. Could you explain the reason of ordering of current practice more ?. I am not familiar with Gokishichidō. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 10:33, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't think it is gojūon ordered. As far as I can see, it starts with the capital region and then continues clockwise with regions around the capital plus Kyushu/Saikaidō. This order makes a lot of sense since the state was centralized (hence Kinai first) and the old provinces correspond to roads emanating from the center (Kinai) in all directions, kind of like rays from a sun. Therefore I would not change the order in the template. My only issue is, that the order should be explained in more detail in the Gokishichidō article since the template's footnote (The basis for the traditional order of the regions was established in the 8th century -- see Gokishichidō.) refers to it. bamse (talk) 12:08, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Some more thoughts... The provinces within the regions are ordered from inside (near Kinai) to outside (far from Kinai) which also makes sense and matches the order of regions. Anybody reading about old Japanese provinces is probably sufficiently interested in this exotic topic to appreciate the historical/geographical order over an alphabetical order. bamse (talk) 12:18, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

There is precedence for using a non-alphabetic order (listing the prefectures from north to south, for example). I agree with Oda Mari on listing in 五畿七道 order. 13:43, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

One could also argue whether pre-Taiho code provinces should be included in the template or whether the list of those provinces is complete. bamse (talk) 12:18, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Please take a look at a tentative version of this navbox/table here.

As you can see for yourself, Hōkkaidō is presented as distinct; and pre-Taihō provinces are relegated to a note at the bottom. The regions appear in alphabetical order. Each region is linked to an article, but arguably relevant details (like Gokishichidō) are undeveloped. The Provinces within each region are listed alphabetically.

I agree with Kusunose that "changing the topic specific ordering to alphabetical ordering reduces the usefulness of the template to those who know the topic." For me, this is persuasive; however, this comment also reminds us that the primary function of a navbox is to assist those who are unfamiliar or less familiar with Japanese history and geography.

I am uncertain about whether to agree with Bamse that "[a]nybody reading about old Japanese provinces is probably sufficiently interested in this exotic topic to appreciate the historical/geographical order over an alphabetical order."

Hopefully, the newly revised alphabetical order will help clarify our discussion in this thread? Do we all agree with Phoenix7777 that "[t]he alphabetical order is the most common practice throughout the English articles." If so, do we need to be more specific about justifying an exception to our generally accepted practice?

For me, this isn't a rhetorical question. I can see both sides, and I really don't know what is best for our project? --Tenmei (talk) 19:36, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

In my understanding, the only use of alphabetical order (in general, not specific to this template) is to quickly find words that you already know (please let me know if there is another advantage). Say, the user of the alphabetically ordered temples wants to find "Mutsu". She'd still have to look through all the lines until she finds it under "Tōsandō: Mutsu", because the template is first ordered by regions and then by provinces. So alphabetical ordering is not too useful for locating provinces. Alphabetical order of the regions helps a little bit in quickly finding a certain region, but since there are only nine regions, even finding a region in the gokishichdō order case is not a big deal. bamse (talk) 21:16, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Current status of this navbox: The traditional order of the regions is restored. The provinces are alphabetic within each regional grouping. For future discussion, a collapsed alphabetic version is archived on the talk page. --Tenmei (talk) 14:29, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

The use of "monogatari series" is up for discussion, see Talk:Bakemonogatari. 65.93.15.213 (talk) 04:50, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Does anybody know of a source (preferrably online) that has the text of the Shoku Nihongi in translation? I am particularly interested in the time around the Fujiwara no Hirotsugu Rebellion (ja:藤原広嗣の乱), i.e. around 740 AD. In kanbun (?) the text is found here. As a related question, are the dates in the source those of the old lunar calendar or the modern ones? E.g. which date is "《天平十二年（七四〇）八月癸未【廿九】》○癸未" found here? Also if somebody knows of other sources (besides the Shoku Nihongi) with details on events of the actual rebellion/battle, I'd be very happy to learn about them. bamse (talk) 15:27, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

The date seems conflicted or incomplete. The date 天平十二年（七四〇）八月癸未【廿九】 , reads "Tenpyo-12 year (740) 8-month 20-day (29th)". I found out that 癸未 = 20-day (See sexagenary cycle#sexagenary cycle). So the format is "old-year (CE year) old month, old day (Gregorian day)". I would say the "modern month" was omitted. Anyway, according to this calendar converter, (Tenpyo-12, 8-month, 20-day) = September 15, 740 CE (it was a Thursday). Sooo... I don't know where the "29" came from, or where it went. Hm. Good luck. Boneyard90 (talk) 18:01, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. Playing a bit around with the Nengo Calculator, most sense would make Japanese date: Tenpyo 12, 8th month, 29th day = 24th September 740 (Western Date) = 癸未、庚辰 (Day, Year) (Cyclic Signs). I boldfaced the numbers/sign which are given in the source. bamse (talk) 22:05, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Just to make sure, as for the source text I am looking for, it can be in any modern language (including Japanese), anything except for 8th century kanbun. This page has some sources to which I don't have access unfortunately. Maybe somebody from this wikiproject has? bamse (talk) 22:18, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Well, we're sort of on the same track. The Wiki sexagenary cycle gives (癸未) = 20 and you went by (廿九) = 29, both nine days apart, as are the Western dates we each calculated (15 Sept vs. 24 Sept). The discrepancy seems to lie with one of the sources. Either the author of your source got the numbers wrong, and (癸未 ≠ 29) or the editor of the Wiki-article sexagenary cycle was mistaken. Or maybe there's something else we're missing. Boneyard90 (talk) 22:58, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I think neither is mistaken. Apparently there are three types of dates: called "Japanese, Western and Cyclic" in NengoCalc. My hypothesis is that 癸未 refers to the "Cyclic" date and "29" to the Japanese date. If you enter "天平十二年", "八月" and "十九日", NengoCalc returns a "Cyclic" date of "癸未" (day). This also works for other dates in the source. bamse (talk) 23:07, 8 July 2011 (UTC) Example: "天平十年（七三八）九月庚子【五】" enter 天平十年九月五日 in NengoCalc and it should give a cyclic day: 庚子. bamse (talk) 23:10, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Hi! I nominated List of National Treasures of Japan (writings: Chinese books) at featured list candidates and would be very happy if somebody could have a look at it, checking for these criteria and leaving questions/comments/suggestions and possibly a vote (support/oppose) on the nomination page. Thanks. bamse (talk) 19:55, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

The article has been listed as Nominations urgently needing reviews, meaning that is in danger of failing the nomination because of a lack of reviews. Hopefully somebody will find the time to do a review of it. bamse (talk) 16:55, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

What does the text on the image say? Supposedly it shows Fujiwara no Hirotsugu (ja:藤原広嗣), but i can't find his name there. bamse (talk) 00:34, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

The image comes from a book Zenken Kojitsu. The text is a waka in Man'yōshū written by Fujiwara no Hirotsugu, The text says "コノハナノ　ヒトヨノウチニ　モモクサノ　コトゾコモレル　オホロカニスナ" "此花乃 一与能内尓 百種乃 言曽隠有 於保呂可尓為莫".[2] ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 01:33, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. bamse (talk) 11:03, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Does anybody know of a source (on or off-line) that has the Shoku Nihongi in translation (anything but kanbun)? I think there is no complete English translation (but don't mind to be proved wrong), so I am probably looking at a (modern) Japanese translation. I'd need mainly entries from the year 740, see here. Alternatively, if somebody can read this, that would be sufficient as well. bamse (talk) 01:03, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

A part of it can be found at here, it's a personal site though. The page is an extract on ship related description from Shoku Nihongi. If you want to know about Hirotsugu, there are some. Like "（天平12年（７４０年藤原広嗣の乱勃発
同年１０月９日　逆賊藤原広嗣は衆一万ばかりの騎馬を率いて板き河に到る。広嗣は自ら隼人軍を率いて先鋒としたり。すなわち、木を編んで船を作り将に河をわたらんとす。‥‥". Hope this helps. Oda Mari (talk) 06:38, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. That's already a good start. Do I understand correctly (based on the text at the top of the page), that the author used ja:国史大系 as source for the kanbun text (which he/she translated himself/herself) and 講談社学術文庫　全現代語訳　宇治谷　孟の「続日本紀」 for the translation of difficult passages? Do you know whether the latter contains all of Shoku Nihongi (or at least the part I need) in modern Japanese? bamse (talk) 11:01, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, you do. Tsutomu Ujitani's Shoku Nihongi in three volumes is a complete modern ja translation. see these. [3], [4], and [5]. Oda Mari (talk) 15:16, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Thank you once more. bamse (talk) 20:48, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Can anyone provide the proper spelling for the lede of this article: Kagurabue ? MatthewVanitas (talk) 18:40, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

• Sure thing!

Kanji - 神楽笛

Hiragana - かぐらぶえ

Romaji - kagurabue

Happy editing! Also, awesome instrument. I, Jethrobot ^{drop me a line} 18:49, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Added, thanks! MatthewVanitas (talk) 18:57, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Hi! I nominated List of National Treasures of Japan (writings: Japanese books) at featured list candidates and would be very happy if somebody could have a look at it, checking for these criteria and leaving questions/comments/suggestions and possibly a vote (support/oppose) on the nomination page. Thanks. bamse (talk) 10:42, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

I have been working on Japanese dam article as of late and I am curious what this cornerstone states? Thanks!--NortyNort (Holla) 13:07, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

平成23年/Heisei nijyū san nen/23rd year, 2月/Nigatsu/Feburuary, 吉日/kitijitu/a lucky day/. 内閣府/Naikakufu/Cabinet Office, 沖縄総合事務局/Okinawa Sogō Jimukyoku/Okinawa General Bureau. Oda Mari (talk) 13:59, 25 July 2011 (UTC)